norml.org/

I am still waiting for an innocent hiker or couple to come to harm because they stumble across a hidden pot farm.

If pot was decriminalized there wouldn't be a black market & violence associated with the illegal trade would be eliminated & innocent hikers will just get smoked out instead of smoked.

I agree with Inforwar; they should decriminalize pot. Maybe stoners wouldn't have anything left to talk about.

I'll start thinking about decriminalizing pot when the people that attend those NORML demonstrations start looking like successful people with jobs, not dead standup comics.

Those whose talk about marijuana use and unsuccessful people are not being honest about the issue. We all know that the  illicit drug used most in the U.S. is marijuana. It's not  only the poor and jobless who consume the stuff.

--virgil

Now that you mention it, I've never run across a pot head who is doing something with his life.

Catpaw, respectfully, maybe you need to meet an honest "pothead"?

--virgil

I actually know quite a few prominent people who are recreational cannabis users - attorneys, businessmen, etc. 

As with just about everything, I wonder how many people know the full history behind how marijuana (among other illegal substances) was made illegal.  If people knew the truth behind government involvement in illicit substances over the years, they might be willing to change their tune, especially when they read about the CIA aid to Heroin drug traffickers in Southeast Asia to fund 'Nam.

I know doctors, lawyers, dentists, professors (no surprise there) and have known police officers who toked.

But I gotta agree with drilinlift on one thing. None of them are showing up to NORML rallies. LOL

Too much to lose.

I know a lot of people who would like pot legalized.  I think it's finally time to talk about it in a serious manner.  No, no stoner ever overachieved anything, but they don't really make many waves either way.  Drunks are a much bigger headache for law enforcement than stoners.  I've known many stoners--teachers, business people, college students, and none of them quit their jobs just to sit on the couch and eat Doritos all day.  'Course, there IS the loser element among stoners, but most losers don't need a reason to be a loser--just an excuse.

All I know is this pot farming in the forests of California is becoming a very dangerous thing.  I had a friend who was a park ranger up in the Humboldt mountains, and he said hikers, private property owners, campers and park rangers get killed or go missing up in those mountains all the time.  He said rich white rednecks hire illegal immigrants to farm pot in the mountains.  They use the water from the natural streams and divert them to the pot plants, reducing the natural water levels of the streams and producing bad soil erosion on those mountains.  Then they use harsh chemicals and weedkillers, which run down the mountains and poison the delicate natural forest plants beneath.  They camp in the mountains and leave humongous piles of trash behind when they leave.  Any innocent person that stumbles on those pot farms are shot and killed without warning. 

The whole thing is disgusting.  Let's put these jerks behind bars and put them out of business by legalizing marijuana.

antiex, that's part of the problem. does anyone have anyting to lose by having a drinking problem? NO

Does anyone have a problem taking any number of pills like Xanax or hydrocodone? NO

Does anyone have a problem if they smoke a doobie to chill out after a long, hard day? Hell F-n yeah they do.

First of all, marijuana is decriminalized. It's possession is usually a misdemenor. Secondly, it is legal within the parameters of a doctor's prescription.

I am not interested in anyone's intellectual arguments that say habitual marijuana consumption should be legalized and it's general use should be embraced by society. It is putting lipstick on a pig. Self destructive behavior remains self destructive behavior. Anyone who would make it legally accessible to those who may otherwise not smoke marijuana show the muddled judgement that pot users usually have. Anyone who would introduce my kid or loved one to pot could use all the arguments in the world about how it's nonaddictive and a matter of free choice. I'd still want to put a bullet through his head.

Ummmm, a misdomenor is still a crime eh! As far as the prescrption part, ask the feds how they feel about that.

Nobody talks about giving it to kids either. That would be like making it acceptable to give alcohol to kids. You OK with that???

Catpaw, respectfully, but that's inane. There's a really good book on this subject:

Cannabis: A History., Martin Booth.

--virgil

Exactly my point Pete. It shouldn't be held against them but it would be because there is still a 'reefer madness' mentality that should fade over the next decade or so. Even the politicians that rail against it by day, smoke it by night (read Jim Costas). It doesn't matter to naysayers that it is less harmful than tobacco and causes less problems than alcohol, because it's a 'drug'. Those same people that cry for a morphine shot in the hospital want to deny an AIDs patient some relief from nausea and an appetite by way of a simple joint.

As for underachieving. It depends on the person. Some stoners would lay around the house eating doritos even if they didn't toke. I know a guy who was a nuclear physicist at San Onofre. He smoked daily, and.....he was smart enough to leave the Nuclear reactor and start a software company out of Mexico and is now living the dream. And no doubt, is still chillin' with a doobie at night.

Maybe one day, things will change, and sanity will prevail. There are so many harmful substance on this earth, yet we waste time and money chasing after people that are just trying to relax or make a dollar ( is this capitalism or not? ).

Now it's just a matter of relaxing and maybe making a buck. No muddled judgement here.

Catpaw - What is your stance on alcohol? Tobacco?

FSG: I don't mind explaining my position. If I appear lengthy, please bear with me.

Tobacco and alcohol are substances we are stuck with. They are not going to go away. If there is a benefit to smoking, I don't know what it is. Education and the higher taxes have made inroads, however small, in getting this destructive habit out of the mainstream. Smoking is a very expensive habit. American tobacco companies do not make money in the USA. They make their loot in foreign markets. (When I was in Guatemala, a carton of Marlboros cost $11, compared to over $30 here. Off-brands could be had for $7.50 a carton.)

Whatever the moral arguments or freedom of choice arguments, there is no argument that alcohol has inflicted more tragedy and damage on the American culture than any other vice. Like tobacco, there should be an intense education campaign concerning alcohol consumption. Access to alcohol should remain limited and enforced. Peanlties for alcohol abuse should be strict. There was a time when the town drunk could stagger somewhere and sleep it off. He was the only person affected by his choices. Our mobile and crowded society does not keep us that isolated anymore.

What aggravates me most about marijuana use are much the same arguments favoring tobacco and alcohol use. Ideally, it doesn't hurt anybody, legalizing it will keep it  controled and "out of the wrong hands." There are comparatively few "right hands." Any intelligent person knows the reality makes the ideal impractical. Despite the clear examples of tobacco and alcohol abuse, some would argue we should legalize marijuana because we have legalized other drugs. Let us add yet another destructive substance to the list. I would call that muddled logic.

Lest I come off as a moralist, I'll share my own hyprocrisy. Both my parents smoked. I started smoking as a teen. At that time I bought a pack of cigarettes out of a machine for a quarter. Despite being under 18, I was never challenged. My siblings were smoking at an earlier age than I started. Likewise, alcoholic consumption was fashionable. My drinking became a hinderance to day to day functioning. I have not imbibed for decades. My brother abused drugs beginning in his teen years, mostly marijuana. Considering his talents, he led a dysfunctional and wasted life. No, I don't entirely blame his drug abuse. It was a symptom manifested by emotional and psychological problems he already had. At the time, we couldn't see them. To say substance use is a matter of free choce ignores the fact that "free choice" does not mean it is an informed choice or the individual has the capacity to make the choice. 

At special occassions like weddings or dinner at thanksgiving, we allow older children (over 12 yrs. old) a glass of diluted wine or champagne. When we went on a cruise, the kid (age 14) was allowed to have a glass of champagne. These settings had boundaries and adult supervision, which don't appy in usual everyday affairs.

I try not to oppose legalizing additional drugs on the basis of morals. (Unless not wanting to invite lost and ruined lives is "moral.") Basically, we are overwhelmed with the health and safety liabilities with the legalized drugs we have. (Nicotine and alcohol are drugs.) Adding yet another source of drug use is not a way to deal with it.

Catpaw, I've been saying this over and over on this very blog for the years that I've been here.  However, I never said it as well as you did.  Thank you for a rational and unemotional response to the question.

In my simplistic way I refer to the alcohol/tobacco/marijuana issue as the genie/bottle syndrome.  Since we can't put the alcohol genie back in the bottle, why would anyone want to let yet another harmful genie out of the bottle.

Catpaw - I appreciate a look into how you think regarding these issues.

I completely understand your argument, as it is well thought out and is full of truth.  I am in agreement that any substance which can alter one's mind whether it be alchohol, tobacco, caffeine, marijuana, etc. is abused by many people.  However, the Genie in the bottle Nancy refers to has already been let out when it comes to most substances.  Legalized or not, there's no amount of money, time or energy we can spend to completely erradicate the illegal drug trade.  Considering that every single substance that is currenting on Schedule as an illegal substance were one time legal, the current drug laws could be compaired to an extended prohibition.  Cocaine, Heroin, Marijuana (to name a few) were readily available 100 years ago, literally in hundreds, if not thousands of household products.  While there were those who abused these substances, there were plenty who seemed to live their day-to-day lives without taking advantage of the abundance of such substances.  Even today, we have thousands of products in our homes that remain legal and are considered useful to us - asprin, cough medicine, spray paint - yet in the wrong hands, these substances are indeed deadly.

The more educated a society is, the less likely we would see such abuse, I believe.  We should be taking the billions of dollars we waste each year on the drug war and instead invest in our education.  We should also invest more money into mental health programs that can help people with addictive personalities.  If we did that, I have a feeling that over time, we would see less drug abuse and more drug awareness.  People will always use substances to alter their mood, but if we can break society of the habit of over-indulgence, it can happen.

Very informative post, Florida.  Well done.

A clue for the two clueless ones in our company.  The MJ genie has been out of the bottle for a long time, and we are stuck with it.  It's not going away, and there is not much you can do about it. Sure, you can't go into any store and buy it, but anybody that wants it can get it without much effort. Use and simple possession has been quasi legal here since 1976 and all the dire predictions of the horrible things that were going to happen have not come to pass.

The state and country could save a lot of money by acknowledging that fact and making its status roughly equivalent to tobacco or alcohol.

What Charlie said.

Marijuana is almost as easy to get as alcohol or cigarettes. In fact, for the underaged, it is much easier to get. No amount of law enforcement can change that. It's already been proven. The cost to taxpayers busting and housing marijuana dealers is not worth the effort. Certainly there are violent dealers who need to be thrown in the slammer, but that's the point. Decriminalize it and criminals will have a lot less influence. Law enforcement money can be best spent fighting the real problems like crack and meth. In fact, if the state legalized it and taxed it, we could probably get out of debt in short order.

Personally I think it should be treated just like alcohol, no minors, no driving under it's influence. When it is legalized, I'm going to buy Frito Lay stock. LOL

Geeeezzzz...Charlie and FSG, the "genie" I refer  to is the legal one not the usage of any substance.  I didn't realize I would have to spell it out for you.  

As far as I'm concerned you just rendered any discussion pointless with that "clueless" comment.  Spend your days working with substance abusers of ALL kinds and then come back to me and tell me I'm clueless.

JHCOAC...all I can do is shake my head in disgust.

Nancy - substance abuse is a symptom of a much deeper problem.  You cannot deny that fact.

Also, if you read my post thoroughly, you'd notice that I made it clear that Marijuana was fully legal in this country at one time.  The Marihuana Stamp Act of 1937 was the first legislation by the Federal Government to rid the public of the drug.  If you do enough research about the history of the act, you'd find that the main backers of such legislation were anti-Mexican immigration, and in their racist ideology, thought that all Mexicans used the drug.  The Act didn't even make Marijuana illegal, but levied a tax on the sale of the substance, in the hopes that it would deter people from selling. I believe it was during the Nixon era that the official illegal substance scheduling began.

So.. the Genie was out of the bottle on marijuana already, we've tried to stuff it back in, yet go to any house party and you're bound to meet someone who can easily obtain it.

FSG.  I'm a substance abuse counselor and have had this discussion so many times on here that I realize the futility of it.  When you walk on the other side of this street and deal with it every day you get a little different perspective.

I just left KCMH in Feb and am still working part time in another area of this field.  None of what's said here is new to me.

I just want this destruction of the forests to end.  These criminals are using YOUR forests--the people's forests, to grow this stuff, and they're slashing and burning as they go along.  We all worry about the Amazon rainforest being slashed and burned, and here it's happening in our own back yard.

Don't believe me?  Go up to the mountains of Tulare County some time.  Go off the beaten path a little (be careful and be ready to hightail it out of there.)   Drive up the fire service roads.  Now and then you'll see a permament campsite with trash everywhere inhabited only by Mexican men--no families, no women or kids--just men.  These "campers" will have an all-terrain vehicle or two.  There will be  a dirt road leading from their camp going further up into the mountains.  You will notice the creek is low where they're camped, but two miles up the creek is high.  Now get the hell out of there!  Run!

That's YOUR forest, folks.  They stole it from you.

YOu don't even have to go that far.  Some years back an ex schoolmate of my kids was shot and killed above Caliente.  Seems they had a dispute over their marijuana farm there.

Nancy, I respect your opinion as a substance abuse counselor, as you do have experience over most of us here.

Funny, you don't hear anybody getting shot over home grown tomatoes, or mexican cartels putting up well guarded tomato fields hidden in the forest. Perhaps if it weren't such a valuable crop...

Honestly, is this a capitalistic society or is it not?

PP..Depends on whether or not the tomatoes have ecoli.

Or paraquat.

Nancy, they ruled out the tomatoes and now claim that it was the peppers. Homegrown fruits and veggies don't get bacterial contamination unless it's from your kitchen. Personally, even with peppers, I usually roast/toast them before using. It makes them taste better, and you peel off the skin (with gloves on) which is likely where the e-coli was. Of course I'm just guessing about the peppers.