If God is eternal, then God existed for an infinite duration of time before deciding to create the universe.  What was God doing in this infinite amount of time?

Careful, Hardliner.  You invite Augustine's rebuttal to *THAT* one.

Really, I feel like this is a scene in Animal House with Donald Sutherland....

Anywho, why, when I play Yahtzee, do I always roll 3's and 6's?   

To me, the intellectual and philosophical speculations about God are quite separate from beliefs. The speculative questions are by their very nature unanswerable in my view, and in the view of many, though utterly fascinating to mull over. Where belief becomes important to me is in how it operates and how it is operated on by the changes we go through in our lives.

I have a "personalized" relationship to God that is useful to others as well as myself. My beliefs come into play when someone is close to suicide, feeling murderous, or otherwise filled with the worst this world can dish out. It is ready in time of need and there isn't any pat speech but there is a useful "something" that can help in dire situations: Hope that there is meaning and purpose for suffering and a reason to find another, better path. Sometimes, just to survive one more day.

I am willing to believe that hope is an evidence of something unseen, for the sake of goodness. Unfortunately, as I have been compelled to acquire in a peas and cups' life: the road to "hell" is paved with abundant experience of identifying cups that lack the pea every time. I am pretty good at that.

Sam, in his blog, pulls the tablecloths out from underneath life's table settings continuously, those cups and peas, and I have concluded, maybe even similar to him, we don't know what we don't know and the rest falls into the realm of beliefs, opinions, and speculations based on degrees of evidence subjected to scrutiny.

Such pitfalls kept in mind, a particular pleasure I get in talking to children is watching their faces light up when I tell them they are made of the same "stuff" as the stars that twinkle in the night. What an amazing, mind expanding thing for a child to entertain in his or her imagination. And, what is even better, it is the truth. 

I gain intense pleasure from the mysteries of life but I live for what is greater than the sum of its' parts, and that, my friend, is a gift indeed.

I liked your blog, thanks. 

Howdy, Buffoo!

Why would I want to prove that God doesn't exist?

Ha atheist fanatics:

Of course, if we keep playing games, we're only helping to convince Buffoo that all we have is a bluff.

Steve wrote, "I don't know what out of time means. "

Google this:

http://www.google.com/searc...

Particularly, this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

It's quite an old argument and theory that remains popular today.

Steve postulated, "God knows what we are going to do. That doesn't make it predetermined. We have choices (free will) and that doesn't go away just because he knows which choice we take."

Well, let's run with that.

If we have true free will, then our future actions cannot be predicted with 100% certainty -- by anyone.  On the other hand, if external influences constrain our ranges of choices, then our actions become more predictable.

Here's a thought-provoker:  If we have no immediate desire to commit suicide, do we truly have the free will to jump off of a tall building?  I'm not so sure.  Mentally place yourself in that situation -- and realize that, just maybe, you don't.

Determinism, specifically causal determinism, asserts that every cause has only one possible outcome.  For God to know each and every action that we will ever take, would seem to imply that in each and every waking moment, each of our actions represent the only possible outcome of the situation that we find ourselves in.

There is no free will when there is only one possible course of action.

Just something to think about.

Buffoo can't *PROVE* that I don't have absolute proof of God's nonexistence, H4F.  If he produces proof of God, I'll produce my counterproof that God doesn't exist.

Buffoo, the problem with "you can't prove God doesn't exist is that it applies equally to *EVERY* God.

You can't prove that YHWH doesn't exist.

You can't prove that Kali doesn't exist.

You can't prove that Zeus, Thor, Ahura Mazda, Xenu don't exist.  You can't prove that fairies, leprechauns, or smurfs don't exist. 

That's why the burden of proof is on *YOU*, not us.  You're the one claiming things which cannot be seen, felt, smelled, or detected on radar. 

Speaking of God and freewill, here is something from the Reformed faith, which tries to have it both ways.

From the Westminster Confession of Faith:

http://www.mbrem.com/confes...

And here:

http://www.fpcr.org/blue_ba...

"This view taught by the Westminster divines is the Calvinistic concept of “determinism” (19-21). The word determinism often carries with it an evil connotation, but this should not be the case. In actuality, determinism expresses a very biblical and high view of God, and it gives us the only plausible theodicy. God determines or decrees every event of history and every action of man."

Read the whole paper.  This guy is freakin' scary.

And it's worth noting that this branch of Christianity -- the "Christian Determinist" branch -- is home to the most militant theocratic force in American politics today.

The "outside of time" argument isn't really worth your time, IMHO.

I'd say that something that is all-knowing can only know the knowable.  Free will introduces unknowability.

I don't see where God's omniscience obviates free will.  I think of it as a movie of say "a day in the life" of someone.  You've seen the movie, so you know how it ends and how it got there.  But during the filming, the subject had free will to choose its course.

.

God, of course, is responsible for creating the conditions which led to that course.  So He does create beings He knows have no chance of avoiding Hell, because He's already seen the movie and set the rules up ahead of time so they'd lose.  Kind of like a mean little kid with the magnifying glass at the anthill.  The ants are "free" to choose any course they want, but they're still going to fry in the end.  He doesn't ask the ant's opinion.  Now me, I wouldn't feel right worshipping such a mean little kid.

Love the ant analogy....

"I don't see where God's omniscience obviates free will.  I think of it as a movie of say "a day in the life" of someone.  You've seen the movie, so you know how it ends and how it got there.  But during the filming, the subject had free will to choose its course."

Ah, but with a movie, you're watching a re-run of the past.  There is only one possible outcome of what has already happened: that which happened.  (Then, there is the matter of following the script.  A good actor makes it look like free will, but in reality, the actor abides by the script.)

I understand, though, why most people have little trouble reconciling free will with a God who knows in advance our every action.  I'm not saying that their widely held view is philosophically sound -- only a most difficult point to argue convincingly its unsoundness.

As I noted to Steve, a God that is omniscient can still be considered omniscient if he knows all that is knowable -- while still leaving unsettled those matters that are unknowable.

Hardliner, what if said God doesn't *KNOW* that there are things He doesn't know--because that is unknowable?

.

Hey, what if all Cretans are liars? :)

"If God exists outside of time, can He be anything other than an inert, frozen entity?" Proof positive: Dove bars.

The answer, once again, is that I don't know.  These lyrics are the first thing that come to mind:

At night, when all the world's asleep,
the questions run so deep
for such a simple man.

Supertramp: The Logical Song

Dove bars are frozen but hardly inert, sage. 

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BLT, watch what you say, or they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal.

LOL : ) Actually, I've already been called an "environmental whacko" today, so I wouldn't be surprised if that's the next thing that happens.