Sounds like wishful thinking akin to christian fundies wishing for the 2nd coming. What if the US doesn't become like banana republics in the next few years? Well, just hasn't happened yet....but catastrophe is coming. 

Historians accept the collapse of the Roman empire (not the Republic-different) as the year 476 AD.  The figures for Great Britain are ridiculously arbitrary.  Does anyone here remember that huge civil war they had in England in 1950?  Man, that was horrible!

What about other nations that have been intact for much longer?  England? Japan? 

The United States has a safety valve which allows a peaceful, bloodless revolution to occur every four years.  Armed insurrection is someday inevitable, but a long way off, and likely outside of our lifetime.  Our society just isn't polarized enough.  Besides, with modern weaponry, the Establishment will win anyway.

Look around catpaw. Things are pretty messed up in this country. Chuck Baldwin is simply posing the question. Anything can happen.

Catpaw I do understand what you are talking about though.

The catastrophe is that we are becoming so polarized that we can no longer function as a nation.

Another question to pose is "is the US supposed to last forever just for the sake of existing?"

When does the existance of a nation no longer serve or meet the needs of the people it is meant to serve?

Some countries just come into existence because of the change of the times.  How do we explain Canada?  They didn't go fight for their freedom.  They became a nation through legislation.

I think America's history is what is polarizing.  We can either be numb to the facts and just function or we really address it which will piss people off.  America has original sins that make the Great Republic a walking contradiction. 

Yes, and we continue to pay for those sins every day. But we have virtues too, and if we could get back to some of those we could be a country again, not a mob screaming at each other. 

spam code:lkkkk uh-oh

 The United States has a safety valve which allows a peaceful, bloodless revolution to occur every four years.

Yeah it's called the phony left-right paradigm.

Besides, with modern weaponry, the Establishment will win anyway.

"Countless people will hate the New World Order
and will die protesting against it."

-- H G Wells
The New World Order

What about other nations that have been intact for much longer?  England? Japan?

From the article above:

One does not need to be a master mathematician or possess a Ph.D. to realize that America is fast approaching the mark in which every major world power in history has either collapsed or, at a minimum, lost its world leadership and power.

Even our virtues are clouded in sin.  They're inescapable.  Shouting is not the solution but we sweep the bad stuff under the rug (bring it to the light)

I like you Jfrancais. You have been pretty decent towards me. So I am only asking the following question out of curiosity.

If you feel that way about this country, why are you serving in the U.S. military? 

When were we a country?  I say never.  We've lived under that guise and I think it's great to strive for that ideal but it has never been.

We came pretty close during WWII...

We have probably always been too big and diverse to be a "country" in the sense that Japan or Great Britain is a country. But we have been a beacon to the world in our diversity and unity of purpose. You are right, JF, that in WWII we came pretty close to it, but that still doesn't stop us from striving for a better way.

Excellent question!!

Today's military is not one where we draft people and force people to serve out of duty to country.  We are a professional force.  I see myself as a professional.  I take what I do very seriously.  I have NEVER considered myself to be real patriotic or one of those "die for my country" types.  I have a connection with my brothers in arms.  I probably would be willing to die for them should the notion become true.  I don't really buy the "Freedom isn't free" crap.  I don't wear yellow ribbons.  I even get a little internally annoyed at folks who think they are morally superior than someone else just because of where they were born. SO WHAT?!?!?!?!

I'm a poor kid from Bakersfield, Info.  I graduated high school with a 2.36 gpa and my only halfway decent skill was that I could play football.  After a year and a half of playing a college, I met a guy from MS who was about to retire from teh army and he told me about all the opportunities that the army gave him.  I had a child on the way at the age of 20 so I thought the army was a pretty good deal.  I can't complain.  I've got two degrees.  I've travelled the world.  I've been able to provide for my babies and make my momma proud.  What bad things can I say about the army?  Even with Bush at the helm, I've had more opportunity than one guy should probably get.

With that being said, I've read a few books and have been able to leave the country to see the world for what it is.  It's not about Black v. White.  It's more about the few rich elites v the poor (everybody else).  I agree with you on the control and how the world works.  It is what it is.  Some things you can control.  Some things you can't.  My first loyalties are not to a national flag or my racial identity but to my family.  I have a duty to feed them and make them proud.  Being an American is cool, but so are other nationalities.  America is a great place but the reality is that they beat my great grandmother in the snow for being an "uppity negro".   She had to sit at the footstool and tend to "massa" while he slept through the night.  When he died, she spit in her hand and wiped her face to make them appear as if they were real tears. My grandfather came from the Fiji Islands to the USA for opportunity only to be treated as colored.  My great great grandmother was taken off her lands in Georgia to live on the crappiest land in Oklahoma. I see America for what it is, Info.  It's a walking contradiction with great ideals.  I try to embrace them when a keen sense of awareness of the past.

 But we have been a beacon to the world in our diversity and unity of purpose.

I think we believe that moreso than the rest of the world.

Japan is a true nation-state in that the people are tied together by more than a flag or imaginary lines known as borders.  They have a bloodline, too.  Israel and China are nation-states.

Great Britain is pretty diverse, actually.

Jf, you really are one of the sanest, most logical people on this site.  I can't even tell you how much respect I have for your philosophy.  While we disagree a lot politically, we aren't very far apart socially and you've always been respectful to everyone one here and rarely sink to the sniping we so often see.

My hat's off to you.  those of us much older than you could learn a thing or two from you.  But we probably won't.  :-)

Our loss.

 If you feel that way about this country, why are you serving in the U.S. military? 

I think the military is one of the fairest most impatial organizations that exist in America.  Simply put, if you work hard it will pay off.  If you suck, you get fired or get out.  What other job has such simple objectives?  I worked in the corporate sector for a while and was really put off by the sexism, racism, and the good ol' boy network.  I was told to fire the most qulified person because she was a woman. I was told not to hire a guy because he was black.  I was even forced to fire a guy because he went to the bathroom!!!  I just don't care for the corporate world too much.  I think they are cutthroat and only care about money.  I've seen people fired because someone else was a cheaper commodity.  It's like we live in an era of economic indentured servitude.  Some of that crap exists (sexism, racism) in the military but on a very limited scale.

Our problems started when we got off the Gold Standard.  We in fact gave the politicians an open check book with no controls.

Nancy, I still owe you lunch.  I haven't forgot.

I think that took control out of government's hands and allowed Rich Elites to gain even more power.  It became much easier to create money out of thin air (kind of like what our government is doing now)

Jf, one thing I am (although from my lack of fan base you'd never know it) is fair and honest.  Just because I disagree with someone doesn't mean I can't see their good points.

I really enjoyed meeting you in person and found you the same both here and there.  Two things we don't usually forget in life are the people who really impress us and the ones who irritate the crap out of us.   One is like fine dining and good conversation.....the other is like poison ivy.  The rest kind of stay in the background..lol.

JF, I like what you say. I was drafted, but still remember the military for a feeling of belonging to something bigger than myself. My loyalty was to the guy on either side of me, never thought much about apple pie or mom or the girl down the street. 

And I have to agree with Info, it is about money and the power that comes with it. I hate the feeling that we are being manipulated, but I'm afraid we are. I don't think I am big enough to fight that, so I just try my best to make my little patch as comfortable as possible. I have seen good and bad places in this world. I like this one pretty well but wouldn't turn Australia down if I had to go.

Keep up the good fight, my friend.

Our problems started when we got off the Gold Standard.

Our *REAL* problems started with the off-the-cuff CJ/SCOTUS comments in Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad . 

All downhill from there.

Oh, come on, randomfactor!  The words 'corporation' and 'person' are practically synonymous!! 

JF, I feel pretty shallow and cowardly after reading your "About serving" comment.  Maybe it's that I had a pretty similar experience with both the corporate world and then that really, truly fantastic experience being in the military. I don't think I've ever heard it said so well as you just said it. You're the man.

JF's my buddy..*grin*

on th prediction..I hate em..my grandparents told me when i was in the 4th grade that the way the world was going we were all going to be dead in 5 years..that scared the crap outta me for about 6 months..i really believed them..the way i look at it its all in GODs hands..he will decide when its time not some depressed russian who suffered a melt down like russia went through..

even at that they are still russia and slowly getting back on their feet..

does anyone recall the depression?? hay Russia been there done that..took a lickin and kept on tickin..we surviced it and we learned how to get it back on track..everything is easier the second time around...

 Our *REAL* problems started with the off-the-cuff CJ/SCOTUS comments in Santa Clara County v. Southern Pacific Railroad . 

That's a sad indictment on what we have become(are).  An imaginary intangible "person" had more constitutional rights than a woman or certain groups of people when this was written.  How would a hardliner constitutionalist like Scalia see such a case? 

It's truly disappointing when you look at cases like the Dred Scott decision which came before it or the Plessey v. Ferguson case which came after.  

How would a hardliner constitutionalist like Scalia see such a case? 

We'll soon find out.  But Fat Tony isn't a "constitutional hardliner," he's a right-winger who bends things to suit his personal prejudices.  Hence his vote in Bush V. Gore, for one example.

No need to feel cowardly, Ray.  We, as Americans, all bring something to the table.  We don't even have to serve to be Americans.  I'm more enamored with the idea of service in general.  Some of us may have been Candy Stripers in high school.  Some of us participated in philanthropies through our fraternities in College.  Some of us just helped an old lady across teh street.  Service is what brings humanity to this hectic world.  In America, we can make money, but I'm impressed with the church that feeds the homeless, the guy in the neighborhood who is teaching kids how to read or with their math, the lady who always has some snack or food for the kids.

does anyone recall the depression??

I had a discussion with my older relatives regarding this.  I never really hear them bitch too much about it and what they told me was that they were so use to living bad that they didn't see a real difference in their lifestyle.  They did see people dying, however.  They saw  visible difference in the way mainstream (i.e. White) America lived and it scared them to see people in that condition.  My parents moved out to CA during that time and they just thought that people out West were wierd.  My grandmother had heard that in CA people ate out of paper bags (Hamburger stands, I guess) and she just couldn't understand that. My grandmother would put a stick in the front yard with a can on it which was some type of signal to transients that they would be fed there.  So she would meet them at the back of the house and give them food for their journeys.  It's moments like that that make America great.  When we strip down all the politics and idealogical leanings, we are still people who care for our fellow man.

I know it is not popular, but I think we should bring back the draft or some form of compulsery service. It would give a sense of shared sacrifice and maybe help to bring us together a little more. It was one hell of an education for me to go from a small town 19y/o to the Army and meet guys from all over the country, plus the service had just become integrated and changed my thinking along those lines too.

I have struggled with that notion.  I think service is good (imperative, probably).  In my research on the topic in grad school, I see that professionalism goes down and it's expensive for the army to continually rotate in new soldiers.  Maybe some compulsory service in the reserves or have a plethora of choices other than just military.

I studied the Cumpolsory service issue in Russia, China, and Israel.  I think Israel has the best system in term of military effectiveness.  Russia essentially had a two year hazing system where private were treated like doodoo by their corporals.  Granted they did have a much smaller NCO corps than we do (which has changed with the breakup of USSR).  With the amount of technical equipment in the American arsenal, it would be difficult to constantly have to retrain large amounts of soldiers.  That is kind of what we re dealing with during these wars.  The fat bonuses are designed for retention or ensuring that a soldier will be around long enough to justify the training.

I think ROTC classes offered to students with no military obligation is a good idea (which is what we do now). 

You're right, though.  Compulsory service would help with the disconnect that we have with wars and the ultimate sacrifice.

Thanks Jfrancais. I respect your views.

I don't think compulsory service should even be on the table.

 pogo I know it is not popular, but I think we should bring back the draft

behind the times..just had a recruiter float through here a month ago to talk to our 18 year old girl..she wants to be a nurse..he said that there are so many people volunteering due to the failing economy  they have raised their standards for acceptance..they wont just take anybody anymore..applicants have to score higher on tests etc..they are taking the cream only..

The army has been that wy for a while wen it comes to the technical skills.  You still only need to score in the 35th percentile to be an infantryman or mortarman.  To get a highly technical skill can be competitive.  It was hard to become an officer or get a commission about 10-15 years ago but since we are at war and the Officer Corp was decimated by the massive layoffs during the Clinto Administration the standards have lowered.  You don't even need a degree to commission as an officer, now, and they will allow you to go to school during your off time while you are a Lieutenant.

It's not unusual in today's army to have a private with more technical aptitude than his superiors.  When I was a NCO team chief, I had 6 soldiers.  3 of them had bachelor's degrees, 1 had a Masters, 1 was a year away from completing a degree. 

Gee, now I feel dumb. I was a plain old infantryman. I remember when it was all about us and getting the high ground.

Nothing has changed, pogo.  It's still all about the infantry and winning the war on the ground.  The reality is, to be an infantry man all you have to do is continually pick "C" on the ASVAB and be a high school graduate.  My cousin (from Bakersfield) has a Master's Degree and he's 11B so take it for what it's worth.  You don't have to high scores on tests to be in Infantry.  You have to be able to shoot and run. 

Jfrancais, thanks very much for your eloquence. Perceptive, honest and all class.