I'm so tired of people defending the greedy insurance companies and dealing with lousy health care in this country. We deserve better!

Canadian health care system ?  why do so many come here for treament then, Lets look at these facts,

Fact No. 1:  Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1]  Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom.  Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway.  The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2:  Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2]  Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3:  Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3]  Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease.  By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them. 

 Fact No. 4:  Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4]  Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

• Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
• Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
• More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
• Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).

Fact No. 5:  Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians.  Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent).  Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]

Fact No. 6:  Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K.  Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6]  All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7]  In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

Fact No. 7:  People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed.   More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding

Fact No. 8:  Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians.  When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9:  Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K.  Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11]  [See the table.]  The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain.  The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12] 

Fact No. 10:  Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13]  The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14]  Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15]  In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize.   Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16]  [See the table.]

Conclusion.  Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries

http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba6...

PP:  "we deserve better"    Health care is not a "right" it is there so you can pay for it, get it thru your employer, go to the ER, or go to a free clinic.  I'm not defending the insurance companies they are a business IN business.  You can avail yourself of what they are selling or not - your CHOICE.

Great words from members of the party of NO!

<edit> and I'm referring to the two posters above me.

Sorry my wife is from Canada and has dealt with thier system. I have a close friend who's father had a heart attack. His doctor said he needed bypass surgery. Should have had the surgery right then like here. No someone decides to do a stress test and because he barely passed the test he has been put on a waiting list for bypass surgery. You think thats better then here? My in-laws spend close to $800 per month on prescription meds then send in the receipts and wait to be paid back. The closest hospital to my in-laws is over an hour away because the government decided to close the local hospital down. Yea lets all wish for some of that.

Well, considering that the NCPA is a conservative think tank, I would take that with a grain of salt. Actually more like one of those giant salt licks they sell at costco. 

My first clue to be suspicious was the line about over half of Americans being satisfied with their health care. More like over 75% are UNhappy with healthcare. 

Why in the world are you trying to mislead us Mountainman? Do you sell insurance or something?

 " Health care is not a "right" it is there so you can pay for it, get it thru your employer, go to the ER, or go to a free clinic.  I'm not defending the insurance companies they are a business IN business.  You can avail yourself of what they are selling or not - your CHOICE."

Cool!  I'm gonna start ripping off every customer that comes through my door. Business ethics are irrelevant because they CHOSE to come here. I'll make big bucks!

BTW: I guess the founding fathers were just a bunch of commies.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

lets just stick with the facts PP, the aritical said 51.3% of Americans are satisfied with their health care, but leave it to you to change the facts,  no one wants a system like Canada has, do we need to cover more people?, sure, should we cover all the Illegals?, no, should we pass the plan the Dems have now that Obama wants to?, no way, even the dems are running from it, wake up PP, its easy to find faults with the Canadian system, there are so many, do some research

witters,

 "Health care is not a "right"  ??? Seriously?

And this is the #1 reason conservatives are against changing any part of the way medical care is distributed? We aren't talking about an auto mechanic, or a restaurant. This is your health, my health, your neighbor's health and every single man woman and child in this country's health. I am amazed that some conservatives have no problem letting their insurance company make decisions regarding their health based on how much profit they can make off of you, and are pretty much OK with being cancelled if they get one of those darn "expensive" medical problems or being cancelled if the insurance co. decides you had a pre-existing condition.

Access to affordable health care IS a right that we should all demand whether we're liberal, conservative, or libertarian!

The dems that are running from the plan have received HUGE donations from insurance, big pharma, hospitals, etc. I'm 100% for a single payer system because it's more cost effective, but would be happy with a public option and allowing people that are happy with their expensive insurance to keep it. Who loses there? The same people that I listed above that give fat donations to politicians.

And the point that's totally omitted here: nobody in the Obama Adminstration is pushing for a system that is like Canada's. It's one of the strawman arguments the right keeps making...that and exploiting people's fear of change.

Mountainman, 

Should we not allow anyone that is not a citizen into our hospitals? Just let them die on the steps because they weren't born here?

They will get medical attention whether or not we change the system. We just have to make it easier to absorb the cost.

The other point: Canada and Great Britain are both democracies. If the system didn't work, and they weren't pleased with it overall, they'd do something different. But from what I read, 90 percent of Canadians, for example, are pleased with their system. And one survey showed 55 percent of them wished the system was more socialized than it is...each province has its own rules and policies. Some have better coverage on drugs than others, for example.

And if you go to a chiroquacktor, for example, that's not covered and additional fees are required...

Mountainman. PP's brain? is unable to process facts or truth regardless of how much is presented to him.  It's like shoveling against the tide to try to reach him.  His Progressive mindset is Obama like. If he dislikes the U.S. so much I've often wondered why he don't go back to Canada.

"But from what I read, 90 percent of Canadians, for example, are pleased with their system."

Using republican and blue dog democrat numbers that means 200% of them are unhappy with their system and wish they could by our expensive insurance that doesn't cover much.

I let my opinion  be known~ thanks for the article Pete.

Well, I'm not from Canada. I love this country. I just wish I had access to affordable health care. I also like facts (unlike Steven Colbert). I just don't like it when people try to misrepresent them. Do I agree with Obama? Well, I watched his program on health care a few weeks back and was surprised at how much I agree with him. 

I am not a huge fan of health care in the United States but I certainly don't want the government running it. What a nightmare that would be. Kaiser is horrible enough.....

This country is supposed to be about the pursuit of happiness & prosperity. More & more we are seeing that spirit dissipate.

People are becoming poorer & that serves as a perfect pretext to sell the idea of government ran health care.

The criminals that run this country are doing all of this by design, it's all about control

It's called problem-reaction-solution. They create the problem & get the reaction they desire...after that the solution is introduced. The solution was thought up way before the actual (by design) problem occurs.

Health care "reform" is a  Trojan horse that will be used to usher in hardcore eugenics & government control...not to mention massive profits for big pharma.

"By this time the soma had begun to work. Eyes shone, cheeks were flushed, the inner light of universal benevolence broke out on every face in happy, friendly smiles. Even Bernard felt himself a little melted."

-Brave New World: Aldous Huxley

I heard on TV today there are millions of people eligible for Medicaid but fail to sign up.  Why?

Those people, along with the illegal aliens, are counted among the numbers of people in America without health care.

ok im probably gonna feel sick after i say this but..RF in all his wisdom has suggested that we use the system we already have in place..MEDICAL..just improve on it..that includes what we need to do about scripts..its going to take alot of cooperation and understanding by alot of people and Im not sayin make the rich pay for everything.....infact some of the revenue from legalizing pot could be used to help subsidize some of that......recreational/medicinal meet medicinal..a win win..

Quick correction, Siouxcity.  Use MediCARE, not MediCal.   Late wife was on both, MediCare, which operates more efficiently than private insurance, is the way to go.

And yes, there's a *LOT* we need to do to reform the scripts issue--things that were specifically written into the MediCare-D bill to fatten pharmaceutical companies' profits.

Just checking in quickly before heading off to work.

.

I heard on TV today there are millions of people eligible for Medicaid but fail to sign up. 

Lots don't know they qualify.  You've got to jump some hoops to get in.  And it's pretty crappy coverage anyway.

I stand corrected..and yes Medicare is better..the kids are on medical and its tuff to find a dr when you need one..or even a dentist..many dr DO NOT want to mess with it because it takes so much paper work etc..then when you do find a dr with medical the lines are out the door...however no matter which one we use.. they could both use organizational help to get us going in the right direction..

 Words you'll never hear in the Canadian health care system

Unless of course, you are in Canada illegally.  Then you will hear those words.  But then, you can just slide on down south of the border and get your health care free....

 "Well, considering that the NCPA is a conservative think tank, I would take that with a grain of salt."   

That's an amazing statement from someone who is copying off of the Democraticunderground website.   So how many times has that website made fun of retard Trig Palin lately?   Yeah, thanks for the great article.

Funny how universal health care in Canada is not extended to illegal aliens...But Pete is right.  Obama doesn't want to make universal health care in the US like Canada...

Ah, drilnliftcrude, the big difference is that I posted something that someone else wrote off the top of their head. Not that it was trying to prove any "facts" or "truth" or anything. It's more of a list of terms we all know very well that are quite odd to people and countries that actually have their act together (that aren't being screwed by powerful lobbyists). Mountainman posted something that was intentionally written to deceive people by a conservative "think" tank. I didin't go through many of the links footnotes they cited, but the one I did led to a 404 page (a page that comes up when a link is nonexistent) which made me look up the group that posted it. What a coincidence. I was not trying to hide my source or pretend I made it up. I actually encourage people to read the discussion after the article on that page. It's quite interesting.

The only arguments people have against fixing health care in the US are either faulty and misleading or flat out lies.

Prove me wrong.

What needs to be fixed??  I say we do something really simple that all countries like Canada does that has socialized medicine.  Limit the socialized medicine to people who are in the country legally.  Lets try that one little step in this country, and see how things are after 4 years... How about it??

#3.  the government pays 100% of the coverage 100% of the time.  The taxpayers pay for all of it all of the time.  Some people seem to forget that little detail for some reason.  The government doesn't  have squat until they take it from us.

Well ron, You have to ask yourself if you are prepared to accept illegal immigrants dying on the steps of the hospital (it's actually a ramp thanks to the ADA). We pretty much take care of people that need help already, it's just that our whole system of doing things is so inneficient that we actually have to pay more for the most unfortunate among us   (           to you that means "the illegals"       ;   ).

I find it hard to imagine why you would prefer that.

anglo1,

 "the government pays 100% of the coverage 100% of the time.  The taxpayers pay for all of it all of the time.  Some people seem to forget that little detail for some reason."

Are you talking about a single payer system where everybody contributes an acceptable ammount and everything is pretty much 100% paid for, aside from boob jobs, face lifts, etc.? I'd love it if that was part of the debate, but I will accept a government plan that is both affordable and actually provides health care.

It almost sounds like we agree on this.

The government  doesn't insurance companies don't have squat until they take it from us. They don't provide a whole lot either.

I think the #1 thing we must demand is that our doctors are paid more for keeping their patients healthy than they are paid by performing more tests, prescribing more pills, and letting the insurance companies make medical decisions for us.

I'm ready to give the govt a try if it's more efficient and costs less than these insurance crooks.

PP: you won't be able to "demand" a darned thing.....................government run remember. They don't listen to the people now what makes you think they will over this???? Dream on McDuff.  The government run medical doctors will accept what they are paid and shut the hell up or..............they can go to another country that still has free enterprise.  Just like Canada and the UK.

I believe what anglo1 is saying is :

“You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”

The late Dr. Adrian Rogers , 1931 to 2005

Wait until you need surgery and you get put on a waiting list!! You're GONNA LOVE it!!

Pete, if Canadas system is so good, why are they so strict on who can use their services?? Shouldn't the US be just as strict??

Also, in Canada, the health care is run by the provinces, not by the federal government.

If we are going to have socialized medicine, I say let the states run it.  Then if California wants to go even more bankrupt by providing free healthcare to illegals, they can.  States that want to be fiscally sound can craft their own plans, based on what the citizens of their states see fit...  The federal government needs to stay out of it..

 We pretty much take care of people that need help already, it's just that our whole system of doing things is so inneficient that we actually have to pay more for the most unfortunate among us  

ANd the CBO is saying that healthcare costs WILL NOT GO DOWN.... Hmmm... so much for your efficiency theory...How much would we spend on treating illegals if they were not in this country??   Say there are 26 million illegal aliens in this country.  Say that overtime that number dropped to zero.  What would our cost for treating those 0 illegal aliens be, assuming our health care system is as inefficient as you say it is???

Couple- a  things here. 

1. Pete is the one who brought up Canadian insurance, not a conservative. 

2.  I don't see Americans going across the border to Canada for superior health care. 

3.  How many illegal aliens avail themselves of Canadian health care?  American health care?  Do you have a number?

Oh yeah, and have any of you checked the mortality rate for lung cancer in GB as opposed to the US?

The excerpt below is from Open Medicine, a peer reviewed, independent, open access journal:

"We identified 38 studies comparing populations of patients in Canada and the United States. Studies addressed diverse problems, including cancer, coronary artery disease, chronic medical illnesses and surgical procedures. Of 10 studies that included extensive statistical adjustment and enrolled broad populations, 5 favoured Canada, 2 favoured the United States, and 3 showed equivalent or mixed results. Of 28 studies that failed one of these criteria, 9 favoured Canada, 3 favoured the United States, and 16 showed equivalent or mixed results. Overall, results for mortality favoured Canada (relative risk 0.95, 95% confidence interval 0.92-0.98, p= 0.002) but were very heterogeneous, and we failed to find convincing explanations for this heterogeneity. The only condition in which results consistently favoured one country was end-stage renal disease, in which Canadian patients fared better."

There are no competing interests declared from the people who conducted these studies on health outcomes. This is in stark contrat to the nearly 30% of all studies done in this country today on health related papers published. To read this document you can click on this link: http://www.openmedicine.ca/...

I just wish I had access to affordable health care.

And you are willing to take my great health insurance away  to get a crappy one for yourself. Very telling.

Let them all eat cake.......then get fat and die of complications from type 2 diabetes

witbee,

I don't have any desire to take away your insurance or have you lose it if you were to get sick. With a public option in place, you would still be able to keep your plan and I would be able to get health care. I'll just warn you though, your plan will probably become less expensive when insurance companies finally have some real competition.

I'm with Nancy.  And I wonder how many illegal aliens are breaking down the doors of our northern border to get into Canada's health system. 

And I still wonder why people who qualify for Medicaid don't avail themselves of it, even if it does necessitate jumping through a few hoops.  Wouldn't it be worth it?

By illegal aliens do you mean US citizens or Mexican citizens going to Canada for healthcare?

wikipedia has a little information here, but these numbers are probably fairly hard to track. It does sound like more Americans head North especially for prescription drugs (over $1 billion worth) than Canadians coming here. The few that do come here tend to have a lot of money and don't feel like waiting there for treatment. 

Canadas system sucks big time if you have a serious problem like heart disease, cancer etc. My uncle is proof of that, He has cancer, after it took them 6 month to diagnois it & after taking 2 to 4 months to get results back on different tests, he goes on a waiting list for treatment. That doesn't happen here in the states. The tests come back MUCH faster & then your treatment starts, mom is proof of that. As far as the hospitals in Europe, they aren't much better. My niece went to Franch & England with a group of students from the states with a group called People to People. A few of them including my neice got food poisoning while they were there, the hospital wanted to see how they would pay before they got treated. Sounds like a great system.... yea right. I don't have insurance right now due to the fact I can't afford it but I will tell you this I sure don't want socialized medicine either since the citizens of this country can't afford that either.

jmabbott888,

Well, those are interesting experiences. Some people here in the US have at least as much trouble if not more. Cancer can sometimes be a hard thing to diagnose. Is he from a large urban area in Canada or is he from one of the more remote areas? As far as the french/english experience (you didn't specify where the food poisoning happened), you made this comment:

"the hospital wanted to see how they would pay before they got treated."

How much did they end up paying? Do you realize they ask that here too? I guarantee you it would cost way more here.

I really find it strange that you don't have insurance, and wouldn't want to get health care if it was a single payer system. Single payer is what people like to call socialized medicine. Socialized medicine is supposed to sound scary. Basically it is putting all of the money we spend on healthcare and pooling it together so that a "single payer" pays the bills. 

Honestly, if it weren't for the insurance, drug and hospitals paying a lot of money to mislead you, the single payer idea would me much more appealing. I guess you prefer to line the pockets of insurance companies instead. They are expected to profit every quarter you know.

He has cancer, after it took them 6 month to diagnois it & after taking 2 to 4 months to get results back on different tests, he goes on a waiting list for treatment. That doesn't happen here in the states.

Damned right it doesn't.  

In the states, you get an immediate diagnosis of terminal cancer after the pain you've been ignoring (since you don't have any medical insurance) finally drives you to an emergency room you won't be able to pay for in hopes of relief.

*BIG* difference.

It looks to me like there are problems with both systems.  There are also favorable points with each system.   I for one will continue to live a lifestyle which will hopefully minimize future health problems.  Limit risky behavior.  Get moderate exercise. No smoking. Always buckle up. Eat fruits and veggies. Use proper equipment when handling chemicals.  Do not play outside when it is dusty.  Hang out with level headed people who work and play well with others.  Never play with radioactive substances and keep out of the asbestos dumpster.  I realize that people very frequently get sick without participating in any at risk behaviors. The mysteries of how and why every disease and cancer strikes may never be known.  However we all get choices to make each day that can either put us at greater risk or keep us healthy.  Be informed and be safe.

How much do people think they should pay for the health of their own bodies?? Really, how much is YOUR body worth TO YOU to protect it?  Is it worth $5 a day to protect yourself, or is even that too much?  You can purchase health insurance for less than $5 a day, that could pay as much as $5,000,000 towards medical expenses.  And they say the system is broke. 

That would only cost my family $7,300. That is as long as none of us have any pre-existing conditions (like acne or diabetes), and are considered insurable (no health problems). That of course is before they raise the rates too. I think they've gone up something like 300% in the last 5 years. that would make it cost over $21,000 if the rates keep climbing. 

Oh, I forgot about the deductible (x4 of course). Let's say it's low, like $2500 (per person, per year). That would cost me an additional $10,000 on top of the monthly premiums each year. Of course there's the cost of prescriptions as well. 

It's no wonder people go bankrupt if they get seriously ill, even if they have insurance.

Annual family deductible $7000.  Max out of Pocket  $10,000.

Monthly cost $276.  Maximum lifetime benefit  $5,000,000. 

So let me get this straight.  Everyone in your family gets so sick that you completely go thru all the deductibles for all the members of the family?  Health insurance is not a right, anymore than car insurance, liability insurance, house insurance, flood insurance are not rights.  Health insurance is available for those who want it.