Remember, the Republican spin on this is that it's possibly the worst bill ever passed, and they're including Prohibition and the Alien and Sedition Acts in that list.

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Bush will veto the bill even if it does clear the Senate.  The guy's going to be a kryptonite anchor for any (R) running in 2008.

WHy are the supporters of this bill so against elections and secret ballots in determining representation?? That is how we elect our leaders.  That is how people have been deciding whether to represented by a union.  So why change it now to where an election and secret ballot is no longer needed?? Hmmmmm??

AudreyB, bless your heart.  Workers have been able to form unions for decades.  They formed unions the same way we elect our leaders, by having government monitored elections using secret ballots.  Thanks to the Democrats, that has been crap canned.  The democrats just threw out government monitored elections and secret ballots.  Now all a union has to do to get union representation is to call a meeting of all the employees, and have them come up one by one and "ask" them to sign a union card.  If enough people sign the cards, the union is born. Now tell me, if you really didn't want to be in a union, how comfortable would you be in going up to the front and refusing to sign a union card in front of all your co workers and  union thugs??  Would you really feel all that comfortable walking out to your car knowing that you refused to sign a union card??

Here is another little gem TomW won't tell you about the Employee Free Choice Act.  The union campaigning can go on for decades.  There is no time limit in which each side states their case, then a secret ballot vote is held and the case decided.  No siree.  Not anymore.  Lets say the union organizers come up 5 cards short in their union card signature drive.  If you are one that did not sign their card, look out.  You no longer have any protections from being harrassed at the work place to sign the union card.  None.  The union will harrass you until they get the number of cards they need. There is no time limit. It can go on indefinetly.

Further more, this legislation was done without any input or amendment being allowed. Yup, that is how bills are now passed in the House.  I guess Tuna Pelosi was right.  She really did change the tone in Washington.  Now the minority party does not get to introduce amendments. 

Shame on you TomW for insinuating that McCarthy doesn't care about the american worker.  This is a shameful piece of legislation that is nothing more tha payback for the unions that supported the democrats.  Nothing more than payback.  COme out of your spider hole, TomW and debate the issues.

Tom.

1.  Excuse me.. You are worried about electioneering with secret ballots?? Just what exactly is electioneering??  The ballots and election is overseen by the government.  You can't say that about collecting union cards.  If there was any electioneering going on, it has been by the unions. There was a time limit within which the elections had to be held.  When the unions knew they would not win the election, they would file a grievance so the election would have to be postponed, and they could continue to sway people to vote their way. That is a fact. I have seen it in practice.

2.  There is no time limit with H.R. 800.  Union thugs can continue to harrass employees for their signed union card until they have the signatures they need.  SHould businesses be able to call for a secret ballot vote after employees have signed up?? Well, why not?  If the employees really want to be in a union, it is going to show up in the vote, won't it??  If it is a secret ballot, how can the employer know who to threaten if they do not know who voted for it and who did not?? If you are so worried about the employer threatening those who sign up for the union, why do you want to get rid of the secret ballot??

I don't like Unions. I've been on both sides of this fence and didn't like either side. The ULTIMATE protest of a bad company is to quit and go to work somewhere else.

If it's that bad of a place, then they'll lose a lot of their best people. The only ones who'll stick around are those that aren't desireable enough to be hired by other places. That hurts a business more than you might think.

I refuse to work in a Union Shop. Life is WAY too short, to put up with the associated waste and abuse.

The American Auto Industry is in the shape that it's in today, because of the UAW.

Anon:

1. Maybe you are right.  I haven't seen this myself.  Can you point me to a news story somewhere of this happening?  I'm not saying it hasn't, just that I'm not in the practice of relying on the word of anonymous website posters.

2. My understanding is that people sign cards to instate a union.  The company can then challenge that and request a secret ballot vote.  Do you believe that the people who run these companies don't know who is supporting the union?  The other point, which I hadn't understood before, is that unions aren't only allowed a certain amount of time to unionize a shop.  So what timeframe seems right to you?  Should the union be allowed to show up for a week?  A year?

Tony, you and I disagree strongly over what has caused the problems in the auto industry.  In my opinion, much of it started because American companies wanted to cut costs by shipping jobs overseas.  Turns out that you don't actually save that much and the work is a lot worse.  Then people stop buying your cars and you don't have as much money.  Another problem has been that American auto companies started trying to make cars that everyone liked instead of cars that anyone loved.  I'd be interested though to see why they get the blame from you.

As for the union shops, it really depends on the union people.  I can tell you that your business benefits because there are unionized shops.  There is always a place you and others in your field can go if the non-unionized shops start cutting down on benefits and wages.

Tom, I don't need news stories to find out how unions operate.  I've seen it in the company I work with.  The ones that wanted to form the union were the bottom of the barrel, by far.  They had no motivation, were not good at their jobs, and they  brought down productivity. They were basically losers.  They were always on the verge of being let go because of their performance, not because they wanted to form a union.

SHouldn't both the union and the employer be able to present their offers, and then let the employees vote?? Yup, that used to be the way it was.  Not anymore.   The union just has to coerce enough union cards, and the deal is done.

Unions are outdated. Todays worker knows that they will change jobs at least 7 times in their career. They have no desire to join an organization that awards how long you've punched a clock. They want to be part of a system that awards performance and productivity.

Throughout the 70's, 80's and 90's American Automakers built junk.

Fit and finish was poor, at best. Quality was a toss of the coin. The cars made NO power, but burned a lot of gas. They weren't comfortible to drive.

They didn't listen to their market. They built what they wanted and fully expected the public to buy them. That's how the Japanese Car makers got in the door. They build cars that were everything that the American cars weren't.

Some of it can be blamed on design. Some can be blamed on business decisions made by management. I seriously doubt that any American cars were designed to not have enough paint on them, or NO primer coat under the paint on some body panels. I also don't think that there were any business decisions made by management to leave out a couple of seat mounting bolts or to not lubricate the rear end before the cars left the assembly line. These are labor issues. The people responsible should have been fired. Because of the Union, they're allowed to continue showing up for work and not caring if they do a good job or not.

Tom,

Tell me, how would it make you feel to buy a new pickup and find out that there were only 2 bolts holding the bed on, rather than all 6? How about buying a new pickup only to have the cowel rust over within a year (in California)?

Crappy workmanship, without worry of any consequences is what can be expected in a Union shop. A guy gets a little seniority and lays down. This makes him dead wood that must be carried. This happens WAY too much. There is no heroism for punching the same clock for a long time. It adds no extra value to the saleable product. Why should it be rewarded? The heroism comes from skill, accuracy and performence. These things add value to the saleable product and are worth a reward.

I also subscribe to the "Whatever it Takes to get the job done" work ethic. Unions punish this behavior, out of fear that it will keep new jobs from being invented.

Here's an example:

Company makes Welded Steel Tubing

Tube Mill Operator has to make a tooling change for a different size of tube. The tooling is big, heavy and dirty. The guy that normally helps, went home at noon, to see his kid in a School Play. Engineer is standing around studying performance of a machine modification. He knows how to change the tooling over (and it's very heavy work). He takes off his tie, rolls up his sleeves and pitches in to help. Tube Mill Operator appreciates the help..................Guy emptying garbage cans files Grievance on Engineer (who designed the tooling) for twisting a wrench on a Tube Mill. Union makes a big stink over a guy pitching in to help a friend. When the Tube Mill is running well, the Operator sits and watches it. When it's not running well, he works like a dog. The guy emptying garbage cans couldn't help do the job on a bet..........no math skills or mechanical ability.

This is the Union environment. I was the Engineer in the above example 20 years ago, and the Tube Mill Operator is still a good friend. The Union was voted out of that shop about 3 years after the above example occurred.

Tony, neither of us would survive long in an environment like the one you described.  On the other hand, there were times when I first started out in construction when I worked for some guys that would send a 20 feet up on a beam with no straps to do a fix.  There was stuff I said no to.  I also didn't have a family to support.

I also did (very short) stint at a hardware store that required a lot of crazy stuff from their employees, including requiring us to clock out before we finished some of our work.

I agree that a lot of the stuff that unions do is crap, but a lot of the stuff businesses do is crap too.  If all of the business owners were like you, we'd never need unions.  Unfortunately, a lot of the same types of people who manage unions also manage businesses.

BTW, I'm driving a Toyota pickup now and am ready to sell it and buy American again.  It's the only foreign car I've ever owned.  I bought it new and a week after I drove it off the lot, the transmission dipstick assembly fell off and the transmission drained out. 

Requiring employees to clock out before finishing work is totally wrong, and against the law. The Employer can get into a lot of trouble for pulling crap like that. I've worked for people who did petty things like that, but not for long. Unions can't fix a crooked Employer. Going out of business for lack of good help and/or a poor reputation in the marketplace can.

With all of the labor laws on the books these days, and a free market, Unions are now obsolete, like gasoline powered washing machines. They worked great in their time, but their time is now past, and they serve no real purpose but to feed the parasites in the head office.

Your Toyota Pickup, where was it built? I hate it, but I'll bet it says Made in USA on it...........

You miss the point, we elected Kevin to vote Red, and he is doing his job, don’t you think, Uncle Bill left any instructions behind? I agree with anonymous and Swenson, unions and unions elected way secret ballot are undemocratic, they should be appointed from a friends list, like corporations, the real Americans do it.

Unions only disrupt the workplace by allowing employees to fluff off on company time, by having breaks and lunch breaks, vacations, and benefit all those things that hurt the bottom line.

I also agree about Toyota, somehow they slipped my new Camary on me I wanted to buy American and it says made in Japan on the door, inside those sneaky Orientals.

Voting for any union measure Kevin says is like cutting and running, like micro managing the generals. The only thing unions do is protect the criminals, as yourself this, if there had been a union would we have had an Enron, a Tyco, no these guys would still be out on the street.

Yeah unions are obsolete, and every worker will have more jobs than he can count, it all depends on how many times they take jobs that leave the country, if they want secure steady employment go to China , India , or Bangladesh. And make Nike’s for 20 cents an hour. Hey they will also benefit from no union intrusions in these countries, we should learn from them.

Kevin we love you keep doing your job and sticking it to that stupid middle class, they deserve it for their voting patterns.