So much for the war in Iraq is really a Christian Crusade theory. 

Not necessarily, Buffoo.  It's just not a *SUCCESSFUL* Christian Crusade.

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You didn't think we were winning, did you?

I guess they view Christians like we view the various religions of the Middle east, and you know we are right ! We have a big bad military and God is on our side....heathens

Well another one of Randoms cherished myths topples before reality. 

Ironic, isn't it? Guess it wasn't about freedom and democracy and all that stuff, either...or...maybe it is. Maybe the Iraqis are building their country exactly how they want it. Imagine that.

This statement leaves me not knowing whether to laugh, cry, or both:

“There’s no comparison between Iraq now and [under Saddam],” Canon Andrew White, a Baghdad-based Anglican priest, said in a televison interview. “Things are the most difficult they have ever been ....”

What myth was *THAT*, Buffoo?    Are you claiming I said the invasion of Iraq was a Christian Crusade?  That was just the cover story.  It was all about the Holy Oil.

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Buffoo, ponder why there were Christians in a predominently Moslem country at *ALL*.  Answer:  because its government, however flawed, was secularist.    Religions do a crappy job of running countries. 

Noon use the quote in it's full context: “There’s no comparison between Iraq now and [under Saddam],” Canon Andrew White, a Baghdad-based Anglican priest, said in a televison interview. “Things are the most difficult they have ever been for Christians, probably ever in history.”

Do they have arenas and lions in Iraq?

I know, Random has been dutifully parroting that "The war is for oil" too.  That is another myth that doesn't have any factual support.  If the war was for oil and the fact is that the U.S. has won and Iraq is now a U.S. client state.  Then were is our oil?  

     Now the third myth that bites the dust today is that the U.S. is a Christian nation.  Once again Random can't provide any facts to support his claim.  The U.S, has never been a Christian nation it is in fact a secularlist nation.  So the goverments failures that Random goes on and on about are actually the result of secularlism not Christianity.   

We bombed the arenas ,but they are being rebuilt with U.S. tax dollars and there will soon be an Iraqi foot ball league.  We did manage to save the lions.  As a matter of fact the "Baghdad Lions" is the name of the first foot ball team.  They are having a few problems like finding footballs  that don't explode when you kick them.

Sorry, the USA has not won, actually we are on our way to a updated Vietnam, a Iraqnam...

Wayfarer, if you're going to get that picky, it's nooneisabovethelaw, not noon. That's a time.

The third myth is the U.S. is a Christian nation? Huh? We've been saying it isn't, it's the James Dobsons of the world who have been trying to convince us otherwise. You can't have it both ways.

Buffoo, "god told" Bush to invade Iraq.  Don't try to blame it on us secularists.

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But I'll save your little admission for future use.  This is not, in fact, a Christian nation.  I'll fight to keep it that way.

There used to be lions, apparently:

 http://news.nationalgeograp...

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If the war was for oil and the fact is that the U.S. has won and Iraq is now a U.S. client state.  Then were is our oil? 

I see your problem*, Buffoo.  The "fact" you state above is in error.  Correct it and you'll see where "our" oil went.

*(Well, one of your many, many, many problems...)

By the same point, there, Wayfarer, if the failures are a result of secularism, and not Christianity, therefore the successes are ALSO a result of secularism, not Christianity, or any other religion.

Sorry Noon and know I am not going to type your full handle, but I don't recall any secularist fighting for the abolition of slavery, opening hospitals, civil rights, or prison reforms in my history text books (which ironically were written by revisionist.)  Random I have never heard President bush claim that God told him to invade Iraq.  The fact is that many Christian bodies argued against the Iraq invasion.  So that is myth 4 to fail, Random today.   

Pssst. Hate to bust your bubble Wayfarer, but Abraham Lincoln....ya know....the guy who played a big hand in sending American blacks down the road of freedom...... wasn't really a Christian.

Well, lessee, Wayfarer. Thoreau and Emerson were both secular abolitionists, and there were a number of secular abolition organizations prior to the Civil War. The fact that they were outnumbered by religious abolition groups doesn't surprise me: when the theistic citizens of a nation outnumber the rest of us by four to one, I am not surprised the proportions stay the same. There are clearly secular hospitals (usually government institutions, including the VA hospitals), and have been, for a long time. And I've heard plenty of rightwingers wail against the ACLU to thoroughly discount your "civil rights" and "prison reforms" comments. Just because you're uninformed doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

As to Bush's claim, that was well-documented by the BBC and others. I don't think there's actual audio, but it was certainly well-reported, though I'm sure you'll discount the sources, seeing as they're all leftwing, secular and all.

BTW, here's what Frederick Douglas thought about the Orthodox Church.........

The Response of the Christian Orthodox Church to Freethinkers and Unitarians.
In the early 1840’s the main orthodox churches of the country were indifferent to the institution of slavery and slavery was an acceptable social practice. The church actually took the side of the slaveholders when the issue of slavery became a matter of public discourse.

The orthodox Christian church with its various congregations made itself the bulwark of American slavery and the shield of American slaveholders. And may I say as an aside, the churches were generally opposed to women having the same rights and privileges as men.

In my day, (1840 – 1860) Doctors of Divinities in the leading congregations taught that man may properly be a slave, and that the relation of master and slave is ordained of God.

Further these Doctors of Divinities insisted that to send back an escaped slave to his master, as required by the Fugitive Slave Act was clearly the duty of all the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In my day, Doctors of Divinities taught that the woman should be silent in the church, and should yield or be submissive to the will of her husband, or she should temper her behavior as one who is subservient, when she is in the presence of men.

And thus in my day, both the Freethinkers and the Unitarians expressed opinions that challenged the moral authority of the established church in matters pertaining to Slavery and later on, in matters related to Woman’s rights.

Computer trouble--

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Buffoo, you might try typing him as "noone."  A little clearer.

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The Red Cross is another example of an organization doing charitable work but founded as a secular agency.

No there is nothing wrong with my computer and nothing wrong with me either.  That is why I was away doing other things.  Your replies are real creative.  I don't doubt there are secular humanitarian organizations.  Just as there are those who claim to be Christian who have different views of social service, but Noon does agrees that most of those organizations were Christians.  Noon and I disagree about why most charitable organizations are Christian though.  He thinks it is ,because there are more Christians.  I disagree, as St. James says in his epistle "faith with out works is dead."  So you can call yourself Christian ,but if you don't show Christian fruits by doing the work, then you are not really Christian.  So I posit there are actually more secularist in the population than there are real Christians.  It has been the Christians since ancient times in response to the Lords commandments who have pioneered hospitals, ministries to poor houses and prisons and the fight for human dignities.  As for Randoms claim that the Red Cross was founded as a secular organization what part of the word "Cross" does he not understand.  Noon if President Bush made any claims about God telling him to invade Iraq to the world media; then be a dear and give us a credible link.  Anti I really don't know what Lincoln's religious affiliations were.  We do know that one of the reasons he passed the abolitionist acts was for the military reason of breaking the Souths economic back.  Plus are you trying to deny the Christians work for the freedom of slaves and civil rights.  Let me drop a few more names for you:  William Foxx, Martin Luther King Jr, Greek Orthodox Arch Bishop Athengoras...  Another point of interest did you know that the Unitarians came from the Congregationalist who came from the original Puritans settlers?

The Red Cross is not a religious symbol, at least according to the Red Cross.  http://www.redcross.org/faq...

I do not see anybody denying the role of Christians in abolition.  What I see are people challenging your denying the role of secularists.

You can shine by your own light without trying to darken the lights of others.  If you choose to do the latter, I would suggest asking yourself whether you are more interested in spreading new light, or darkening light that already exists.

Of course Apollo the Red Cross is now a secularist organization and will not honor the Holy Cross.  but notice that the Cross was chosen as an appeal to mans higher nature and that is used as a sign of medicine.  The medical symbol of serpents in-twined on a staff is another Christian symbol from the time of Moses and a fore runner of the Holy Cross.  I see these comments different too, Apollo.  The original topic of this blog is religious persecution of Christian in Iraq.  True I did make the comment on how the facts disproved the myth that the war in Iraq was a "Christian Crusade" and yes I expected the usual knee jerk reaction of a few to the name of Christ.  I also have no interest of shining "my own light."  But nothing is impossible for God and he can use me sinner to turn a few people from darkness and destruction then "Cool beans"

Exactly Dawn. I never denied the good things Christian organizations do, just as I don't deny that they also tortured and murdered people in their history. Christians don't hold the keys to the moralmobile. Believe it or not, an atheist can be more moral than a Christian. Do you deny that Sojourner??? For instance, who was more moral, Pope Alexander or Carl Sagan?

What we are denying is Sojourner's claim that secularists did nothing to help eliminate slavery. If Frederick Douglas isn't an authority on the subject, who is?

Many Christians had a lot to do with abolition. Just as many Christians had a lot to do with bringing blacks here in the first place.

You dig yourself a hole everytime by your blanket statements that have no basis in fact Sojourner. Then when you are called on it with real facts, you reverse the thread by insinuating that I am denying the Christian role in abolition. I never denied that Christians played a role, you denied that secularists did.

By shining your own light, Wayfarer, I used a figure of speech.  "Light coming from you or through you"...  Is that better?

I think it better to celebrate what light comes from everyone, whether we think of it as their own light or that of God (and Goddess) shining through them.

Any time that people are persecuted for their spiritual path, and that includes Christian victims in Iraq, that is evil and darkness.  I do not need to be a Christian to share sympathy for Christians in Iraq.

I do not think that the war in Iraq (I must suppose we mean the war in Iraq) is a Christian crusade.  I tend to believe that genuine Christian paths, as well as genuine paths within any other spiritual path (including mine) are not warlike.

Sometimes, people use the word "Christian" loosely to describe things done in the name of Christianity that may not be so illuminating or amicable to human dignity.

I won't, but that might be what was intended.

Sorry Anti ,but is not mine to judge another.  Only God knows what is in a persons heart or what circumstances they have had to deal with.  As for me denying any secularist role in abolition; looking back at that comment I can see how that was misconstrued.  What I was trying to get across was that my public schooling which was very secular, the role of Christians in American social reforms stands out and I couldn't recall any mention of strictly secular organizations in the textbooks.  You still haven't given me any examples of such organizations.  The only one that comes of mind to me was the Black Panther Party which attempted to do a lot of good for the black community.  Of course the Black Panthers weren't mentioned in a favorable light in my public schooling.  There history is something I dug up on my own during my leftest period.  Another strange irony, my mentors during my leftest period were Quakers.  

Well Wayfarer, here's the way I see it. The Bible is the Christian authority, is it not?  It is the Word of God according to Christians. The Bible condones slavery from cover to cover. This gave the Church the authority to sanciton it. 

In 1517 the Bishop of Las Casas, a high official in the Roman Catholic Church, encouraged immigration to the New World by letting Spaniards import twelve Negroes each. Christianity and African slaves were introduced into the New World at about the same time. The Church condoned slavery, and according to the Bible, that was not only okay, it was encouraged. In fact, some Popes had slaves.

Now is this an indictment on all Christians? No. Just as not all atheists are Stalin, not all Christians are Pope Alexander. But it did take a Christian dominated society a few hundred years to abolish the practice. Now, even if you believe that free thinkers were not the impetus for abolition, and that it was all done by the grace of Christianity, then the perfect analogy would be to call the person who stabbed an innocent man a hero, because he took the knife out after a couple of hours.

Actually Anti let us try another approach to things.  I have brought up the secularist record on human rights violations ,because one of the tenants of the secularist faith is that all wars and violence against are fellow man are caused by other religions.  This in the light of history has been proven wrong.  Another fact is that I have been repeatedly attacked for no other reason than that I am Christian and some people have issue with that.  So let us try a new tack.  The secularist try not to attack Christians and the Christians try not to be unkind to the secularist.  One of my favorite quotes is "Be kind to everyone, because we are all fighting great battles."  I of course fall short many times of this idea, but if we want to actually have a real dialog we have to overcome our personal issues and try to communicate and not endlessly debate.  A big order for sure, but I am game to try if you are? 

A secular institution is not murdering Christians in Iraq. Seperation of church and state is not an ideal, it is a necessity for a peaceful equitable government and economy.

The "Red Cross" emblem comes from the Swiss flag.  It's a secular organization founded by a freethinker.  Not surprised Buffoo didn't know that--and I figured he'd take the bait.

 Another strange irony, my mentors during my leftest period were Quakers.  

Why is that ironic?