I alway find it very funny when "Christians" talk about samesex marriage. As if they've got marriage covered, but let's face the facts. We've got over a 50% divorce rate in this country, out of that 50%... 95% of those couples are "Professing Christians" They stood in front of God and their families and professed their undying love and respect for each other and yet these "Christians" are filling our courts with their nastly divorces. If we are truly interested in "Saving" marriage as they claim... shouldn't we ban marriage to the hetrosexual?? I mean seriously... these people are filling our courts with divorce cases, breaking up homes all over America and promoting EVIL Christian views. It still amazes me when you see these Christians are the road with their faded BUSH 04 bumper stickers headed down the highway... it shocks me that anyone would support such a man. And yet, these "Christians" knowing what Bush has done to this country and the world, would continue to support such. And is it really any wonder??? It was the Christians that support Hitler... so is it any surprise. Can you imagine knowing that President Bush is directly responsible for the deaths of almost 1,000,000 Iraqis, not to mention THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS and yet they continue to support this man???? Yeah, I just don't get it. Surely as a society we're smarter then that??? And now we want to deny something as simple as marriage to two loving consenting adults?? Yeah, I just don't get it. Some say, but they'll want kids... well, yeah... probably. But what are we concerned about there??? Study after study as been done... kids of samesex couples turn out just fine and usually better educated. I recently read, the normal rate of high school to college was about 42% on average, but that shot to 98% to kids from same-sex relationships. (yeah, very interesting) Goes to show how stable a same-sex relationship can be. I mean seriously, that alone is very telling. These are the same christians that got their bibles out and marched in the streets, when women wanted the right to vote, the same Christians that were out their when black men wanted to marry white women... ( and that still get's some of these "christians" Yeah, shame shame shame) And now they're at it again. Personally, I would think Christians would be personally outragged that the government would be telling them what they can or can not do, because this is not just a marriage issue, but goes so much further. Now the government in certain states tells our church who they can or can not marry... what is next??? Are they going to tell you what can be taught within the boundries of the church??? IF this, why not anything else?? And yet, then there are many mainline churches that would gladly marry a samesex loving couple. I don't know, I just find the whole thing truly bizzare. Yes, there is a God and I'm telling you now, they're will be plenty of these professing "christians" that will BURN in the FIRES of HELL for the EVIL things they've done on this planet. Do you seriously think you can vote for someone like Bush?? Sure I understand the first time around, but a second time??? Do you seriously think you will not have to ANSWER for your actions. You knew what this man has done to this country, to the world... and to humans EVERYWHERE and you voted for him??? As if you approve of what he has done. Trust me... YOU WILL ANSWER for your actions!!! Since we've seen what hetrosexuals have done to marriage... ie divorce rates etc, not to mention most registered sex offenders are usually MARRIED HETROSEXUAL males with CHILDREN of their own... but again, since we've seen what these Christians are doing... maybe we should BAN marriage to everyone... and allow only Civil Unions to anyone that might want such... that way the government would have NO excuses without the exception of blatant homophobia. Wake up America... the only thing that Same-Sex marriage will do for you, is most likely make life better. Really ... pretty plain and simple. Heck, look at the state of MA, since marriage was made legal there, the divorce rates have come down, crime has fallen and real estate prices have skyrocketed. And I will try to wrap this up, but wanted to add one more thought. Since I am on the subject of the Christians and their EVIL ways... isn't it really time that we start TAXING the church in this country. Because face it, the church is BIG BUSINESS and nothing else. Who are we kidding here?? Do you remember the day when a priest or pastor worked a honest job and then preached on Sunday. What happened to that??? What a shame to accept MONEY to share the supposed WORD of GOD!!! I mean seriously... how shameful is that?? My Grandma past away a few years back, the thing I remember most about her service was the pastor was concerned afterwards how he was going to get paid. (very typical from what I hear) If we're going to make any laws... I'd suggest... taxing the church... personally I would think a HONEST christian would want nothing less. Although, when is the last time you ran across a truly honest christian. I know it has become a joke. And lastly, if we can not profit off of the likes of ELVIS and other personalites, should we be able to profit off of GOD??? NO, it should be banned in this country. NO ONE should profit by using the name of GOD. It's truly shameful.

Well the usual nonsense from those prejudiced against Christians and I get so tired of showing the fallacy of their beliefs.  Oh well at least in America it is not criminal to be Christian yet.  Which I believe is the topic of this post.  That forcing same sex marriage on the American people allows the government to dictate peoples religious beliefs, there marriage, there professional lives and how they bring up there kids.  Please let your comments address the topic as are the rules of this site. 

Prejudice against Christians???? Just look at them... look at what they've done. I believe in God, I also believe that God whole heartly wants samesex couples should marry. So are you saying the government should only support YOUR view and not mine? Again, very typical! Christians have become so EVIL!!! It sounds as if, it not your way... then NO way and that is just not the way it is done in AMERICA. We're talking about two loving adults wanting the rights of marriage. NOTHING MORE!!! Heck, Bush went to Saudi Arabia and spent the night with the king and his 42 wives... I don't know about you, but that sounds like support to me. I mean come on... where does one draw the line. Marriage for EVERYONE or NO ONE. Really very simple. And what about the 1000's of mainstreet churches in this country that would gladly marry same sex couples??? What about them??? What about those christians??? It truly sounds like you don't care about other christians... sounds like you care about only yourself. And yeah, lets talk about the issue... You want to SAVE marriage right? Because honestly, AMERICA has seen what the Christians are doing these days in divorce courts all over this country. This has nothing do to with being prejudice... it's a FACT!!! And funny, usually nonsense you claim. Funny, you can be prejudice over samesex marriage and that is OK, but if someone says anything HONEST about the Christians and all of a sudden... You're concerned. Yeah, very typical. You are showing the true Christian colors with your last post. Good going buddy! It was EXACTLY what I was talking about in my other post and you just proved it. As you people do over and over and over again with your EVIL ways. Shame shame shame. Wake up America... this wayfarer is very typical to what you will find in the Christian community these days.

No "light" shown here. Jennifer Roback Morse sounds typically like the most selfish of hysteria mongers who just want to build a wall between gays and the their rights as citizens. The only "threat" is that the federal government gets my tax dollars to pay for those 1,200 entitlements that accrue only to married people and bar me from the benefits I've paid for my entire working life. Did the patriots of Boston have something called a tea party over that very thing?  It went like this:  Dear King George, you ask us to pay taxes but in return you do not provide a benefit to we, the people sending you money, that represents something that we, the people sending the money, expect to see as the substance of the thing we paid for.

Where is our money, your highness?  We pay taxes for ye road. Yet no road appears. We pay taxes for ye school. Where for art ye school?

We pay taxes for ye widows social security.  Our husbands pay. Yet when our husband pay, where is ye social security widows benefit?  We know. It's lies beyond yon wall, erected for the select and in defiance of our constitution.

So Bram you are saying everything is George Bush's fault and that he is a good generalization for all Christians.  Which in your humble opinion are all evil accept for apostates?  Does that about sums it up? 

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up. Glad you're finally getting it. Wasn't it the Christians that were dancing in the streets during his re-election and claiming a moral victory. A MORAL VICTORY... I actually heard a "professing Christian" on tv the other day... and I kid you not... he said.. "Yeah, sure MILLIONS have died, including THOUSANDS of American soldiers, but thank God we don't have Gay marriage in Texas" I kid you NOT!! The fact MILLIONS have died didn't phase this Christian at all.... but praised that Gay marriage couldn't be found in Texas. I mean seriously whacked... HELLO!!! I mean honestly. Heck, it was the CHRISTIANS that proclaimed a MORAL VICTORY with his re-election. Are you having memory problems??? Do you remember this??? A MORAL VICTORY they claimed. As if homosexuals couldn't be good moral people. I know.. it's laughable. I travel for work, I can not remember what state I was in, but I remember a few months back I read a article in the news paper and it mentioned the local "Christian" business men got together for a Thursday morning breakfast every week and I mentioned something to the person I was having lunch with, a lady over heard me from behind and made the comment... yeah, some of the most dishonest men in town attened that breakfast weekly. You talk about prejudice... if Christians would clean up their acts, you wouldn't have this problem. Again, we're talking about LIVES here. We're talking about TWO AMERICAN HUMANS wanting to have the rights of marriage... Who are you to deny such??? Exactly... You are NO ONE to deny such and I think it's shameful to think, that you would promote destroying the love and the very basic rights of any American. And let's just face it... again, this is not a Gay issue here... because truly, when ANY RIGHT is taken from ANY American, it is taken from ALL OF US!!!

Hey Husband Material.... good news on your marriage!!! Praise GOD!!! Now go show those hetros how it's done. :0)

Well, I have to get going.... my partner and I are having OUR families over for a 4th of July BBQ and the guest are supposed to start arriving at 6. Yes, this SEVEN OAKS Couple lives a very normal life in the burbs... We have good jobs... a beautiful home, awesome cars... made $650,000 last year together and have the support of both our families and 1000's of friends. Yeah, my parents (still married) my partners parents (still married) And my brothers, sisters and their familes will be at MY HOME for the 4th of July. We're as normal, as good and as moral as anyone. And get this... I KNOW there is a GOD looking down upon us all. Yeah, it really is very simple my friend. Now go forth and try to be nice to people... be honest and good and stop promoting your EVIL views. You will live a better life... it's very simple. Treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself. Why try to take rights away from Americans... would you want your rights as a christians threatened??? Probably not. Although, guess you only care when something personally effects you. So as much as I would love to stay and chat... I've got to work with the catering crew to make sure everything is perfect for tonight. Gotta go... I've got a life to live. I will pray for you.

So no body's gonna try to justify why the Mennonites have to leave everything ,because the government wants to tell them how to raise there kids or why a Doctor can be fired for refusing to do a morally, reprehensible procedure, or why a adoption agency must choose between doing the good they are set up to do or actively participate in evil.  Didn't all this happen before in Germany around 1939?  Come on HM I expect better of you.  As for those wondering why Church's are non profits.  That is a protection of religion that prevents the government from meddling in Church affairs or setting up a state Church and taxing the competition harshly as is done in muslim countries.  The point is that Same sex laws give the government the tool to do just that and that is Unconstitutional.  

hmmmmm so it's ok for the government to have laws in regards to hetrosexual marriage and that is fine and constitutional, but if it's homosexual marriage, then all of a sudden these laws are in violation of the constitution??? huh??? Are you truly dealing with a full deck of cards?? I don't think the elevator is going all the way to the top anymore buddy. Maybe you should seek out medical help for your condition. And yeah, 1939 and Germany... yeah remember it well, history is pretty clear about the Christian support for Hitler. Yeah, very clear on that!!! The Christians have been promoting their evil agenda for sometime. Thank God the American Government stepped in and took care of Hitler, as the government did with slavery and yeah, the christians sure didn't want to give up their slaves. The government stepped in again when blacks and whites wanted to marry each other and they will step in again. But I guess you're against all that as probably Hitler would be. Yeah, sounds like some of us didn't learn anything and will repeat the tragedy of the past over and over again. Truly very sad. I read your profile and had to laugh at your Greek affiliation, especially considing how GAY Greece is. Very funny. Anyway... I really have to go. I will check back tomorrow and respond... I really have to get things together for tonight.

Thanks Bram for dishonoring the memory of all those Christians who died in the Nazi concentration camps.  I guess they must have been evil too.  Yes it is in the Constitution the freedom of religion from government control.  By the way calling my faith evil and calling me mentally ill is bad form and a violation of the rules.  No personal attacks.  Have a nice party and be sure that I have nothing against you.  I haven't even met you yet, but wish only the best for you. 

 

 

More unenlightend garbage from the usual suspects.

Intolerance of gays is not Christian, it's homophobia at best.

Come on Saber you can do better than that. 

Does the New Testament supercede the Old? If so, where in the gospel does Jesus say, "Woe to those in love who are of the same sex"?

Of course the new supercedes the old.  Except where they want to cite the old as justification for bigotry.

Yes, Wayfarer... I totally agree with you. And true CHRISTIANS should be outragged when the American Government tries to tell our churches whom they can or can not marry. You're 110% correct... the government shouldn't be involved in our churches!!! There are thousands of churches that would GLADLY marry SAMESEX couples and yet our government is telling them NO!!! You're right!!!! And we should all be outragged, because what's next... today it's about marriage... tomorrow it might be about being God women and that is the only thing to be taught. Yes, I totally agree with you... if a church wants to marry a samesex couple, they should have every right to so without the involvement of the government. EXACTLY... Yeah, we agree on something... see we can find common ground. You do want the government out of EVERY church... right? Or was that only in churches that see things your way?

And about the Christians in the Nazi camps you seem to be so concerned about... You're aware it was mostly Jews.. U do understand this... right??? Heck, most Christians that died in these camps were GAY... are you aware of this??? Or would that be okay because they were Gay??? And I'm assuming you're aware of the large amount of SUPPORT Hitler received from the Christians, the non Jew Germans and also the Catholic church. I mean come on... Where were you educated? You do remember all of this... right??? I'm not making this up... it's HISTORY. And in regards to calling you mentally ill or your faith evil... just open your eyes. I mean seriously... why in the world would it phase anyone if two loving adults married??? Love is so special, so kind, so rare... we should honor ANYONE that would make a commitement to a loved one. Marriage is not to be entered lightly, marriage should be honored and cherrished and not tossed away like is being done by the records of divorces by these professing Christians... Again, I'm not making this up... CHRISTIANS are divorcing in alarming rates, it's painfully clear who has messed up marriage. IF you're truly serious about saving marriage... should we ban those that are making such a mockary of it?? Just a thought. And about a mental illness.. I didn't say that... YOU DID!!! Although, from your rants and thought process it did honestly make me wonder. And I hold nothing against you either... May God show you the light. Ask God in to your life and heart... trust me... all you have to do is ask. Nothing worse then going through life with hatred towards two loving adults... trust me.. life is too short. Love should be honorned and never banned... especially by the government.

Our walks with God are very personal and I won't go into all the details, but there is a GOD... no doubt about it, I didn't learn about God from any book. And to be frank, one should be careful about what they read and what is believed... because there will come a day we will have to answer for our actions. But without going into all the details, I've personally met God, I died during a surgery 10 years ago, I get chills just writing this down. No, I wish I could tell you I got the light... but I didn't... I went straight away... I've been to the face of God and he's REAL... he had three messages for me and then I was returned to my body. ( I know... most would think I was crazy, mostly christians... which is so odd, you would think a christian would be thrilled, but they would be the first to think I had lost it.) I use to say I believe in God, but to say you believe cast doubt, I now say... THERE IS A GOD... and trust me... He's watching. And again, without going into any details, because I truly believe our walks with God are personal and private and if God wants to relate any messages to you, he will. But I can leave you with one thought... treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself. It's really that simple. REALLY! My brief walk with God changed my entire life and my believes and outlook and he can do the same for you. It will happen... and you will see for yourself... in time. Just ask him into your heart, body and soul. Till then... I wish you God's awesome peace.

Thank you Bram especially for that last comment.  I agree, treat others as you would want to be treated.  Which means that if I am wrong I expect to be corrected and I will probably resist that.  But opening up your heart to God means to become vulnerable and willing to let go of your sins. But the choice on how you live your life is yours.  My choice is to try to reach you and offer what little hope and encouragement that I might have or remain silent and watch you suffer. 

My choice is to try to reach you and offer what little hope and encouragement that I might have or remain silent and watch you suffer. 

I ask this in an attempt to salvage some fellowship with you (as a member of the community): Why do you assume people are suffering without your religion?  And, do you really, truly believe that the things you've said in the past were said out of love? 

There are things that I suffer from (as we all have things that vex us).  I have an illness that will likely not have a cure in my time.  I have a family member who is dealing with the fall out of being sexually abused by the clergy.  And, to see that person suffer makes me suffer.  But, on the whole, my life is wonderful.  I have an amazing husband and beautiful, wonderful children who I would do anything for.  Being their mother is, and will be, the biggest honor I can think of.  We have a home filled with love and happiness with no guilt over sins we didn't commit or fear of eternal torture that drives many.  We love our neighbor because we choose to do so and not at the order of a book or deity.  Helping others makes us feel good.  Giving of ourselves is a gift we give to someone else out of love.  So, when someone tells me that, without adopting their faith, I will suffer, I have to ask why?  And, how can you possibly consider some of the things you've said (and continue to say) as hopeful encouragements? Not that I'm perfect and have always spoken with love and care...I've likely said that have hurt people (you included, I'm sure). But, I don't pass judgement on your happiness or suggest that you'd be better off an atheist.  I can respect that you have a life you love that gives you fulfillment.  I wouldn't attempt to take that from you even if I could.  I'm sad that you feel like there's no point to life without your god or your church.  I'm sad that you consider yourself a sinner for being human.  But, it's your life.  Who am I to tell you what you that my philosophy will work for you?

Yes Possum I do believe the things I said in the past are out of love.  The truth often hurts and some times I have had to make a call on saying something that was hurtful over the harm that hurt person was going to cause someone else.  Such as calling self destructive behaviors what they are even if it is often misconstrued as being hateful or intolerant.  Of course I also made many mistakes and will probably make many more.  As for passing judgment on another's happiness or what possibilities exist for the fulfillment of that happiness.  That isn't my call.  I have shared with you my own experience as an atheist and how that was the wrong path and only brought me misery.  I have also shared my own experiences as a Christian and the hope and strength that it has given me.  I have also shared a little of the rich heritage and traditions of the Orthodox Faith with those who may never have heard of it.  If you have found something helpful in what I shared, great!  Praise the Lord!  But I could never presume to tell anyone how to live there lives.  

  I have shared with you my own experience as an atheist

You have? 

If atheism brought you nothing but misery and you can't control your personal demons without God, then that's your call.  I don't wish misery on anyone. 

The truth often hurts and some times I have had to make a call on saying something that was hurtful over the harm that hurt person was going to cause someone else.  Such as calling self destructive behaviors what they are even if it is often misconstrued as being hateful or intolerant. 

I'm sorry but this sounds like an excuse for being a jerk.  You're basically saying you're allowed to hurt people because of your faith.  

But I could never presume to tell anyone how to live there lives.  

But, you have.  You've told women how they should handle their fertility and pregnancies.  You've told people what and how they should worship.  You've told homosexuals that they should put their sexual desires aside and give themselves to your deity - or live as a heterosexual while sublimating their homosexual desires.  You've told people that they should adopt your religion and your God.  If that's not telling people how to live, then I don't know what is. 

Well, thanks for answering my question.  Peace.

Nope Possum just passing on the message.  I don't try to play God and make up the rules and I also try not to play manipulative games with people.  Also if you truly wanted to be friends you could try to be less accusatory.  The thing I really value about blogs is that it gives me the chance to really think what I am trying to say before I say it.  As the carpenters say "Measure twice and cut once." 

I didn't think I was being accusatory, but I apologize if that is how I came across.  You made a statement about not telling others how to live and I pointed out ways in which I feel you are. 

I think one thing that most people here get irritated with is the passive-agressive statements.  For example, in your comment above you say you "don't play God and make up the rules" and "try not to play maniupaltive games".  So, is that suggesting that other people are?  Or, is it just a general commentary? It's very hard to tell with an internet chat.   

As for being friends, quite honestly, I'm not sure if you'd allow that to happen.  I said I only wanted to see if I could salvage some sort of fellowship based on our mutual community.  I had just spent time with our Orthodox friends before they flew out to Russia to adopt a new baby.  It made me think of you.  Talking to them, I mentioned how difficult I find it to communicate with you and how others on this site felt the same.  They gave me insight I didn't have previously and I decided I would try to offer you an olive branch and see if I could find something in common.  I'd go out for beer, but I don't drink and can't leave the house.

 The ancient scripts that predate - and might rewrite - the Bible
 

A fresh interpretation of a stone tablet dated to the decades before Jesus's birth could undermine some fundamentals of the Christian faith, experts claim.

The tablet, which is similar in style to the Dead Sea Scrolls, is said to predict that a messiah would rise from the dead within three days.

The partially-deciphered Ancient Hebrew text had seemed to contain a vision of the apocalypse as told by the Angel Gabriel.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

 

Just trying to figure out which " Jesus" they are talking about there were many before the modern day version

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.c...

A friend and I were just laughing about that the other day on the way to Church Maggi.  She was telling me that they found a relic that would "disprove" Christianity once and for all.  Just like the Gospel of Judas last year, the supposed sarcophagus of the Lord, the Book of Mormon and so on and so on.  I laughingly told her she needn't go into too much detail as some supposedly skeptic will be sure to show it to me on the blog sphere the next day.  Got a hole in one with that.