Blogging Bako
Life on the Bakersfield.com Blogs and Beyond

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posted by blognroll on Jun 14, 2007 at 01:13 PM -- It's a personal choice really.  If you want to avoid immature, cheap shots and hostile insults, stay away from topics like religion and politics.  I can anticipate that the argument will be this: Then the bullies win! 

Well, I'm okay with them winning in the blogosphere if it means avoiding their vitriol.  It's a Pyrric victory and they won't win in the real world.  The blogosphere is an artificial world that is really quite unnatural.  It can bring out the worst in all of us, so I suggest that folks who don't like getting insulted and disrespected just avoid those regions where it is most likely to happen. 

If everyone were as mature and as intellectually developed as Hardliner is, there would be no problem, but there are too many who prefer to make the blogosphere their own personal arena for hating on people, target practice, and for simply spewing forth their hostility and immaturity. 

 

You said it quite well, blognroll, though I'm not familiar enough with Hardliner to be able to tell if you are being sincere or sarcastic w/r/t him.  No matter.  I liked everything else you said.

There is a plethora of blogs that exists these days allowing the unbridled and unchecked freedom of people to, in relative anonymity, spout whatever they want and not have to be accountable for it.  It's almost hard to think back to a time when blogs didn't exist, and we had to keep most of our opinions (which a lot of times aren't even worth 2 cents) to ourselves.  Certainly we didn't have such a far reach in which to share or impose our thoughts on others.  I am reminded of a saying  -- not very ladylike of me to repeat it, but . . . -- "Opinions are like a******s.  Everybody's got one."  (And now you've read mine.)  Too often I think blogs are nothing more than great big technological outhouses.

 

posted by blognroll on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:04 PM

I appreciate your comments, theColorNine, and, yes, I was being sincere, not sarcastic, in my comments about Hardliner.  He knows that, although he and I have often disagreed, I have the utmost respect for his intellect, and for the mature way he handles himself within this blog community.  He's pretty good at karaoke too : )

It's not only a matter of being thin-skinned vs. being thick-skinned, though I'll be the first to admit, my skin is often too thin to endure blog bullying in its worst forms.  Sensitivity aside, it can be very frustrating when a person is trying to engage in a serious debate, and somebody wants to turn it into a peeing contest or a junior high schoolyard fight.  

I totally understand the point of view of Mr. Martinez.  Most debates concerning religion or politics that begin with spirited, but otherwise civil, intellectual discourse, end up degenerating and regressing to very primitive levels.  It makes it all seem like a waste of time. 

posted by bnfl on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:07 PM
Sage,
I'm confused. Were you accusing me of calling you retarded? I wasn't the anonymous poster. I'm just checking. According to the anonymous poster, I'm one of the retards, too!

Edit:

Never mind, Sage. I just re-read your post. I should have read it better the first time.
I've never claimed to be an "intellectual giant".
I just can't stand to have people insulting others while at the same time misspelling several words and screwing up their punctuation. It just seems funny to me. They're thrashing someone for whatever reason while at the same time making themselves look silly for their lack of basic writing skills.

Obviously, I came off wrong.
To you, I apologize. That is not the impression I meant to give.
posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:09 PM
We all like vanilla.....it is safe!
posted by jasonsperber on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:31 PM
In light of the grammar spelling discussion, bnfl, I hate to tell you but I think at 2:27, you meant "granted."  :)
posted by GrpThink on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:31 PM

If you are not a dishonest anonymous blogger post your real name and a photo, Swenson Jr.

You laid down the gauntlet, hold yourself to the same standard and post yours.

Or are you just another hypocrite?

posted by sagefever on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:33 PM
bnfl~no,not you I agree with H4F ,your a great addition ,by the time I posted the image was gone..it was an anon I refer to..By the way anon I am anything but vanilla~though on occasion it is a good flavor.
posted by bnfl on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:34 PM
Hee hee hee! :) Notice I said I wasn't perfect! :)
Always ready to admit it...
You have to admit most of my posts aren't quite as full of those sorts of things as the prev. anon., though, right? ;) Help me out here..

Edit:
I'm officially relieving myself of "grammar, spelling, and punctuation patrol". I'm clearly not qualified. Ha! :)

Have a great day, all! I've got work to do...
posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:37 PM
" Or are you just another hypocrite?", of course not, I am not whining because you have access, I am quite satisfied with the status quo. Additionally,  I love it when this guy panfilo gets credited or blamed for my stuff.
posted by randomfactor on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:38 PM
For me, vanilla is like the base tint at the paint store.  That's what you start with, then you *ADD* the flavor.
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jasonsperber - > Blogging Bako -> Martinez on bloggers -- what do you think?
Martinez on bloggers -- what do you think?

TBC columnist Leonel Martinez explains why he no longer comments on blogs in today's column:  basically, it's because of us.

Bloggers, that is.

The column's title, by the way, is "Owning up to views not the blogger way."

He goes to great lengths to assure us that he's not talking about all of us, or all parts of the blogosphere, but still, you've gotta wonder....  And he never directly mentions his own company's little blog experiment either....

So, go check it out, come back, and tell us what you think.

Posted in these Groups:
Topics: blogs, bloggers, Bakersfield Californian, bakersfield.com, Leonel Martinez
posted by jasonsperber on Thursday, June 14, 2007 at 08:31 AM
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83 comments from 24 users

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posted by samheath on Jun 14, 2007 at 08:54 AM
Martinez has been transparent in his view it really should be "Mexifornia." He will brook no argument to the contrary.
posted by GrpThink on Jun 14, 2007 at 08:58 AM

TBC columnist Leonel Martinez explains why he no longer comments on blogs in today's column

Am I the only one who sees the contradiction in this?

In this day of cyber-stalking and with the heated debates that go on, you take your life in your hands if you post your name on the Internets.

Just ask Kathy Sierra about the perils of posting your name on a blog. And all she blogged about was computers and programming.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-b...

posted by GrpThink on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:00 AM

Sam,

How about responding to Martinez' column on blogging and not his views on immigration?

I swear, some people are so monolythic in their thought patterns.

posted by steveeswenson on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:16 AM
Well, I post my name and picture, and so far I'm still alive and not badly bruised with the opinions I've expressed on blogs.

I'm not suggesting everyone should do it my way. It's just that I believe in signing my name to what I write.

I have no problem with a psuedonym, but I hate the anonymous key. We need to eliminate that -- the sooner the better.
posted by GrpThink on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:31 AM

I post my name and picture, and so far I'm still alive and not badly bruised with the opinions I've expressed on blogs

Your posts are pretty innocuous, Steve. You tend to shy away from heated waters, except to pour cold water on them.

 

It's just that I believe in signing my name to what I write.

As a journalist and representative of the Bakersfield Californian, it is your duty to sign your name. Just as it is for Martinez. That's why I found his column to be hypocritical and self-serving.

 

but I hate the anonymous key. We need to eliminate that -- the sooner the better.

I wholeheartedly agree. The anonymous feature allows for sock puppets, repeaters and it's confusing when several of them are posting in the same blog. I find myself re-reading posts to find out if it's the same person as before.

posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:34 AM

I agree.  Lose the Anonymous button.

 

posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:36 AM
Hear, hear!
posted by randomfactor on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:39 AM

Even some of the Founding Fathers published under pseudonyms.  I also contribute under my real name to the Californian's letters-to-the-editor column, but as noted above there are valid reasons for using pseudonyms online. 

.

Then, there are pseudonyms and pseudonyms.  I've noted several times that the Californian knows who "Randomfactor" is.  I trust them not to reveal that improperly.

.

But as for Martinez' observation that blogs "all too often" dissolve into insults and name-calling, I say he needs to visit a higher class of blog.  The ones *I* post at don't do that--for various reasons.  The Californian actively polices behavior.  At DailyKos, there's a user system that "hides" inappropriate comments by vote (and yes, I know some feel that itself is censorship.)  At Eschaton, the clueless are mocked mercilessly but otherwise tolerated, unless they use technical means to try and crash the conversation.

.

Now, it's true that right-leaning blogs may be different.  As in the old lawyer joke, 99 percent of the right-wing blogs give the decent ones a bad name.

.

To generalize about all blogs from the behavior of some makes as much sense as saying the Californian is a sensationalist tabloid because Weekly World News publishes pictures of George W. Bush shaking hands with an alien.  (You *KNEW* I'd have to work Bush into the topic somehow, right?)

posted by AudreyB on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:43 AM

I'm opinionated, I don't work for the Californian, I try to respect other bloggers and  I'm not anonymous.  Works for me!

 

posted by mattloch on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:44 AM
Random: "But as for Martinez' observation that blogs "all too often" dissolve into insults and name-calling..."

If you can't stand the heat, you shouldn't become a fry-cook. [c'mon Matt, even for the sake of sarcasm/irony you know better--edited].....

/The irony is strong with this thread

Edited to remove the IRONIC name-calling of Mr. Martinez. Honestly people, nobody likes a buzz-kill. Why not go to comedy clubs and get the government to bring comedians up on hate-crime charges because they used "offensive language" and called people "bad names".

Do you not know what the meaning of "irony" is? And yes, that is a serious question....
posted by TomW on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:44 AM
What's in a name?  Leonel seems to think that he is "standing behind" what he says by putting a name, email address and number out there.  His work number, I imagine, not his home number.  When I write, using my real name, you can access my email address or respond publicly to me.  Now, if the Californian would like to pay me whatever they pay Mel and give me a voice mail box, I'll be happy to attach that number to my blogs.

Oftentimes, it's not the anonymity of the posters, it's that people don't like the public repudiation of their views.  Leave him a private message?  Ha.  I'd rather voice my complaints in public and have my views and the counters to those views aired in public.
posted by bnfl on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:48 AM
I don't know anything about Leonel Martinez except what I just read in his article and on this particular thread. It *seems* like he's being genuine.

I'm new around here (the blog) and I was one who used the anonymous feature for a month or so. I did that because my email address contained my name and didn't want to be exposed-NOT because I'm afraid to defend my opinions, but because  there are loonies out in the world, whether it be the cyber world or otherwise, that will not simply debate on-line, but take that debate to extremes and make threats to one's safety. I've had someone stalk me before. It's no fun.

I felt like in order to protect myself and mine, I needed to conceal my identity. I know I'm not alone in this way of thinking...

For the record, my posting anonymously was NOT to be able to call people names at will with "impunity" any more than is my use of a pseudonym.

That's just my two cents, for what they're worth.

I am enjoying my time on the blogs, sharing ideas and maybe even learning a thing or two about what motivates people to think what they think. It's been interesting-to say the least...

Mr. Martinez is certainly entitled to his opinion and is welcome to re-join us or not... Right, "guys"? :)
posted by jfrancais on Jun 14, 2007 at 09:53 AM
To not use pseudonyms is a security risk. Due to my profession(s), using a true identity is discouraged.
posted by GrpThink on Jun 14, 2007 at 10:05 AM

Due to my profession(s), using a true identity is discouraged.

I'm in the same boat with this issue. When I started contracting with the feds, I had to sign an agreement I wouldn't advertise (all my business has to be by word of mouth) and that I wouldn't post on Usenet or blogs using my real identity.  It sucked, but I wanted the contract.

posted by bnfl on Jun 14, 2007 at 10:20 AM
Hardliner,

Coming from you, I take that as a high compliment.

Thank you. :)
posted by randomfactor on Jun 14, 2007 at 10:40 AM

I'd like to ask Martinez if he feels there's a material difference between the current practice of using "anonymous sources" in print and TV journalism to advance a point of view, and using anonymous comments on a blog to do the same thing.

.

If he feels that the difference is that the reporter at least knows who the "anonymous" leaker is, I'd like to know the last time he, personally, "burned" or identified such a source publicly in response for being given inaccurate information.  The only time I can think of it happening is in the Valerie Plame case, and that was under court order.

posted by GrpThink on Jun 14, 2007 at 10:53 AM

Here's another reason I don't use my real name in blogs:

The U.S. judge who oversaw the CIA leak trial of a former aide to Vice President Dick Chency said Thursday that he received threatening letters and phone calls after sentencing I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby to prison.

"I received a number of angry, harassing mean-spirited phone calls and letters," District Judge Reggie B. Walton said. "Some of those were wishing bad things on me and my family."

 

There's too many dangerous rightwingers out there.

posted by bnfl on Jun 14, 2007 at 11:15 AM
GrpThink,

I hope you're joking about the "rightwingers" comment. The loonies are on both sides. Let's be honest.
posted by jfrancais on Jun 14, 2007 at 11:21 AM
...maybe he's inferring that the rightwingers are out to get him...
posted by bnfl on Jun 14, 2007 at 11:31 AM
hahaaahahahah! :)

I guess one can never tell.
posted by randomfactor on Jun 14, 2007 at 11:43 AM
I'd be very interested in the proportion of the *THREATENING* letters to the judge which opposed jail for Scooter.  Bet it's like 90 percent.
posted by GrpThink on Jun 14, 2007 at 11:44 AM

The loonies are on both sides

Not the violent ones who will go to lengths to carry out their threats.

I give you Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudoph as examples.

posted by blognroll on Jun 14, 2007 at 11:45 AM

I read his article this morning in the "old press," and I could totally relate to where he is coming from.  My solution, lately, as been to try to stay away from potentially controversial topics as much as possible. 

I've come to the conclusion that it is as unwise to discuss religion and politics on blog sites as it is in the workplace. 

Does that mean I will never enter those forbidden territories on the web again?  I won't say never, because I'm not always wise, but I do think it is wise to avoid those touchy subjects on blog sites. 

posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 11:46 AM


posted by Hardliner4freedom on Jun 14, 2007 at 11:52 AM

Therefore, when we inject religion into politics, we force confrontation -- because when something is made into a political issue, it will become the object of intensive discussion.

If we don't want to see and hear the things we hold sacrosanct get ravaged and smeared, then we shouldn't make them into political issues.

That's one reason why protecting and preserving freedom -- and the institutional structure to ensure it -- is my top priority.  If we can ensure (and better yet, respect freedom), then there is no need to agonize over our dearest beliefs getting turned into political pinatas.

posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 12:38 PM
I say that the Californian should ban political and religious blogs.
posted by jfrancais on Jun 14, 2007 at 12:41 PM
No way! Blogging about whatever our hearts' desire is the way to go. For all the stupid or inciteful comments there is enough rational dialogue to not take such drastic measures.
posted by blognroll on Jun 14, 2007 at 01:13 PM

It's a personal choice really.  If you want to avoid immature, cheap shots and hostile insults, stay away from topics like religion and politics.  I can anticipate that the argument will be this: Then the bullies win! 

Well, I'm okay with them winning in the blogosphere if it means avoiding their vitriol.  It's a Pyrric victory and they won't win in the real world.  The blogosphere is an artificial world that is really quite unnatural.  It can bring out the worst in all of us, so I suggest that folks who don't like getting insulted and disrespected just avoid those regions where it is most likely to happen. 

If everyone were as mature and as intellectually developed as Hardliner is, there would be no problem, but there are too many who prefer to make the blogosphere their own personal arena for hating on people, target practice, and for simply spewing forth their hostility and immaturity. 

posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 01:41 PM
 " Well, I post my name and picture, and so far I'm still alive and not badly bruised with the opinions I've expressed on blocs."  actually who cares what you think about anything?  You are irrelevant, just like Marylee, a defender of the status quo. You basically push the party line, and in Kern, there is danger to that.
Personally I think you should ban anything with the word alien, and whining about language , nah you would never do that, if you did it would have to be from a secure location, like Cheney.
I Kern your are a safe but irrelevant item Swenson.
posted by GrpThink on Jun 14, 2007 at 01:51 PM

That's completely uncalled for Anon.

I disagree with much of what Steve says, but I not only respect his views, I welcome them and look forward to them.

It's posts like yours which show just how important it is to eliminate the anonymous account option here.

posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 01:56 PM
posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 02:01 PM
Thank you GRP, my only surprise is that so far you are the only groupie to jump to his defense. But i stand by what I said, if you are a happy good news guy whose views  do not depart from the local line both personal and employer wise, you are a SAFE man.
As for you GRP, you are a dishonest anonymous blogger, but that is perfectly alright with me. I would never want you to leave or be removed, guys like me would have to go back to reading the comics .
posted by GrpThink on Jun 14, 2007 at 02:19 PM

you are the only groupie to jump to his defense

If you think I'm a groupie, then you obviously don't have a clue. But then you've made that abundantly clear.

As for you GRP, you are a dishonest anonymous blogger

Considering how you think I'm a Steve groupie, how can you claim I'm something you're ignorant of?

The sooner the likes of you are eliminated from the Californian's blogs, the better.

posted by bnfl on Jun 14, 2007 at 02:27 PM
I wish we could impose grammar check requirements for such bloggers as Anon. 1:41pm.

Grant it, I'm not perfect, but *geez*... At least hit the spell check button once in a while. It hurts to read your posts sometimes.

(I know, I know.. I'm starting the descent into his/her lower level. I promise to stop. :)

By the way, for what it's worth, I, too, often disagree with what Steve has to say, but he still has every right to say it-just as much as Mr. or Ms. Anonymous has. 

After all, isn't expressing our views part of what we're all here for?
posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 02:30 PM
posted by bnfl on Jun 14, 2007 at 02:34 PM
You're making Mr. Martinez' point.

Edit:
Thank you to the person who deleted the picture of the person with Downs Syndrome. I wasn't offended by the picture-only the misuse of it.
posted by OldBlue56 on Jun 14, 2007 at 02:39 PM
Anon at 1:41 is obvious Panfoolio. Hey old man, are you goona get a second "secret" name for here? If you do, we will never figure out it's you writing...
posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 02:40 PM
As I said GRP you should not be removed, these blogs would lose a great deal of entertainment value. For ll anyone knows you could be Swenson kid or his significant other, not that i care, but it could influence your views.
Well no matter, maybe I am ignorant or it could be that you are a genius, kind of like Einstein who has trouble communicating with the average Joe, either way I sympathize with your problem. If you are not a dishonest anonymous blogger post your real name and a photo, Swenson Jr.
posted by anonymous on Jun 14, 2007 at 02:45 PM
GRP, you see, if you play your cards right you can be a valid as this painful fellow, he gets credit without having to ask for it. It any be only creeps and weirdos that give you credit, but any publicity is good publicity, even on the blogs. This guy must be quite a guy!
posted by sagefever on Jun 14, 2007 at 02:54 PM
Asagefever is "who" I am,on line..but TBC knows who I am off line,I have written letters,I commented for an article they ran,a seriously dedicated person could track me down I suppose..but Mr.Martinez can have his view of things,as can we all.Generally in life,on the Internet in particular, a thick hide,compassion and a healthy ego,sense of the absurd are good attributes to pocess.The only difference I can see is Mr. Martinez seems to feel vaguely more superior to the masses,more "real",which is ironic to say the least.Anon 1:41 and anon 2:27 are examples of what some may consider cowardly~and I do.Besides given hanging with the "retarded" and the,supposedly intellectual giant anon 2:27~ give me the droolers every and any day.
posted by theColorNine on Jun 14, 2007 at 03:04 PM