I'm going to take a reeeeally radical stand and say that mandatory child support is slavery.  I'm against it.  Is paying it the right thing to do?  Absolutely.  Should you contribute to the growth of the kids that you fathered?  Yup.  If you have any sense of responsibility, people who feel that sense of responsibility will contribute what they can after the divorce.

But one sure way to turn a man (or anyone, for that matter) to self-destructive living is to make him feel like there is no point in achieving anymore.  Hopelessness breeds self-destructiveness, and being sentenced to years of exorbitant child support is a great way to breed hopelessness.

* And no, I have never divorced, and never will.

H4F;

Do you think that a father that refuses to pay child support should have visitation rights ?   In a perverse way I have to agree with you. Women need to be more selective in who they breed with. To my daughter I said, "What did you expect, I told you the guy was a bum from day one." 

Boy, Child Support Services sounds like every other County Agency out there - with the exception of the Board of Supervisors who usually get a big fat cat raise when all of the rest of the "working class get their deserved 3 or 4%" - and that's before the taxes and other new deductions are taken out! 

Speaking from the experience of a child from a divorced home in the late 70's and early 80's.....this was before child support was ridiculously high and houses still cost less than $250,000.  My dad paid his child support, and he made ends meet.  He was not the greatest when it came to being loving or doing things with us....but he contributed to our upbringing and paid for our insurance until we graduated from high school.  Once I turned 18 and graduated, he offered to continue to send me the support checks until I turned 21 - as long as I went to college.  He didn't help with any other extra expenses though....but at least he paid something and took his duties as a father seriously.  At the risk of sounding like a conservative fanatic - it seems as though the breakdown of the traditional family, and the lack of respect for family values - like being married to the one you have children with instead of having 5 kids with 5 different men - has contributed to the ability of "fathers" to abandon their responsibility to their children. 

Should the loser dads who don't pay their support be entitled to visitation?  NO WAY!!!!  If they want to pay up, then they can visit the kids....but, chances are, if they don't pay their support, they won't want to come around anyway!  It's a vicious cycle where only the kids lose in the end!

I'm gonna go along with H4F on this one.  How is it fair that a mother, or stepfather for that matter, completely support a child and the father (sperm donor) be allowed to come in and play daddy?  No..if he can't help support the child, he loses his visitation rights.    (see disclaimer below)

On the other side of it, I've had guys tell me that even though they pay, the ex won't let them see the kids on their regular visitation.  Of course you can haul them back to court, if you have the time and the money for attys to fight it but a lot of people don't.  A friend's daughter tried to fight her ex in court over custody of her child and lost.  She had NO money for a retainer and none of the atty's would take her case without it.  Understandable..they need to get paid too, but what was she to do?

Now a disclaimer.  My personal feeling is that even if the dad doesn't pay, I'm not going to keep my children from their father.  If he was around to have bonded with them, I'm not going to make my children pay for their fathers lack of financial support.  They did nothing to warrent losing a fathers love on my account.  If he chooses not to pay, and is lax in his visitation, then the kids will form their own conclusion without my help.  I don't want my kids to ever be able to say "Mom always talked bad about Dad..or Mom wouldn't let us see Dad."   Nope...if they are hurt, it won't be from me.  You see..they already lost when the divorce happened and I'm not going to make it worse.  It has always been very important to me that my children know they haven't lost anyone through divorce.  You have to love your childrem more than you resent or hate your ex.  It should be about the kids..not about the ex.

Mom2CandC wrote, "At the risk of sounding like a conservative fanatic - it seems as though the breakdown of the traditional family, and the lack of respect for family values - like being married to the one you have children with instead of having 5 kids with 5 different men - has contributed to the ability of "fathers" to abandon their responsibility to their children."

Those aren't the words of a conservative fanatic if they are taken at face value.  The "conservative fanatics" are the ones who use "family values" as a code word for censorship, more government in your bedroom, and stepping up the war on sex.

One of the factors that made me choose Bakersfield when I left Los Angeles was its true family-friendly atmosphere.  Hey, I agree with your description of family values, and everyone here knows that I am no "conservative fanatic."

The father of my kids has perfected defiance of the authority of the court. Garnished wages would catch up to him if he worked for someone other than himself. He owes the kids over $100,000 now and child support services has yet to catch up with him even though he could be sitting in their lobby to prove his point- he doesn't have to hide to be able to evade. He boldy asserts, "It's my job to make the kids, and her job to take care of them." He works as a contractor, has the employer pay his mother, and his mother pays him...... income??? what income??? What about impounding his truck? That's in his mother's name as well. If he is stopped and found to be "license-less",resulting in the truck being impounded, dear old grandma will just get it out of impound and give it back to him. He'd be driving again within 24 hours.

I took the kids to Visalia to my niece's wedding. We stayed for the day and came home. We didn't spend the night and even though my orders restrict any overnight travel out of Kern County without notification to the father, he took me to court for contempt nonetheless citing that I failed to get his 'permission' to take them to Visalia. If I was found to be in violation of the court order, I would have left the courtroom in custody. Even though the judge found that I was not in violation, he didn't take the opportunity to address child support since it was not an issue covered in the order to show cause and therefore not an issue before the court. The ex could stroll in there and stroll right back out as if he had never been seen (technically) further proving that he has more "power" than the court to do as he pleases.

I don't have the answers- I wish I did. It just seems off balance that I can go to jail for taking the kids 60 miles from home and he can walk free while continued defiance of the court's authority is part of his everyday routine.

This is truly a no-win situation.  The kids always loose in divorce - unless you can manage to stay civil with the ex and rise about the garbage.  After growing up in a home of divorce, I was convinced that I would never marry, let alone have kids!  (My theory was don't get married, then you don't get divorced....pretty simple, right?)  My dad was basically one of the "donors" for my entire childhood - only after I graduated from CSU, Bakersfield and was married did my dad realize that he didn't know me - and he was not invited to the wedding, either.  I met my hubby to be halfway down the aisle and walked alone.  The hurt I felt as a child and young woman from my dad's absence will never go away completely.  Dad's have a huge role in who a child grows up to be.  I agree with NancyII - don't talk trash about the ex and let your kids form their own opinions.  My mom pretty much did this, and it was much better than being brain washed and told my dad was a loser....I knew that already!

Qvjayne, I hope that you get some sort of satisfaction - but please don't hold your breath!  It sounds like your ex certainly has his dodging techniques down to an art!  It really sucks - no doubt about that.  Unfortunately, you can't change who the father of your children is....just try not to bash him in front of them and remember, it is only for a short time.  Sooner or later, the kids will be grown and they'll be able to tell him what they think of his low life ways!  (one thing my "donor" dad learned the hard way - you reap what you sow!)  Good luck!   

Sage, the best thing I heard coming from the judge was that he didn't care about my ex's well-being or mine... He was on the side of the kids. Too bad the judge is not in charge of enforcement. When my ex's mother said she was on my side about issues we faced, I told her not to side with me or him, but to side with the kids. That has not been evident. I was married to this man for 21 years and he is the father of all four kids.

Unfortunately, the kids have suffered more than anyone else. I do the best I can within my resources to provide them with guidance, stability, and integrity. The are academically adept, considerate, compassionate toward those less fortunate, and respect the authority of law. They have received numerous awards for their achievements; they are all honor students. But they have paid, and continue to pay a high psychological price. If their father calls and asks to spend 2 minutes with them around the corner, they take it since it's "all they get." It's sad.... very sad, indeed. 

For the most part, they have stopped hating me for his behavior as they had in the beginning. They've figured out that I am not in control of their father in any way. His disregard for their well-being is all his doing.  He says the reason he doesn't pay child support is that he will never give "me" a dime.

Liens were placed on my house in his name. I had to pay them. ($7000) Credit he had gotten (in his name alone) and then defaulted- the creditors came after me and I had to pay them. ($5000) Two years after we divorced and he had remarried, he hired a cement company to pour concrete at the home of one of his clients and then never paid the cement company. They came after me for it and forced me to pay it. ($2000) Can I afford to fight all these things?  "No," because I am left holding the bag from all angles.

Life is tough at times, but during the times when blessings abound, my faith is renewed. One day, when I am called upon to be accountable for the way my life was lived, I will have little to feel ashamed of. Until that day, the barrage of challenge continues to present itself as opportunities in work clothes. The visual appearance of my retirement package bears a striking resemblance to a casket. Too bad CSS doesn’t do what they say they will when cases are opened… it would sure take some pressure off.

My oldest daughter criticizes me for letting the youngest visit their father. Furthermore, it is beyond her understanding to figure out why I can talk to dear old Dad in a respectful tone. The only explanation I have been able to give is based on the question our parents used when we said "everybody does it.".... "If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you do it ,too?"

Just because he is disrespectful to me and degrades me at every opportunity- (an outright ass at times by any standard), that doesn't give me the right to chime in using the same tone. If I am going to criticize a behavior, yet behave in the same manner, my criticism is futile. You can't do the same things you criticize and expect admiration.

As for letting the youngest visit their father... That is definitely a double-edged sword. If I do let her go, I worry about her safety. If I don't let her go, I worry about her never knowing him well enough to develop an opinion . She will blame me for keeping her from him. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Even though there are many things that have happened since the marital meltdown; and even though his addictions rule his existence, this man is not all bad. If he was all bad, the reflection would be back on me. If he is all bad, how could I have been married to him for 21 years and had 4 kids with him? I didn't divorce him because I didn't love him anymore. I divorced him because the influence he had on me and the kids was dangerous at the time, and dangerous to our future. Staying with him would have given the impression  (and influence) that it's normal for men to abuse women and it's normal for women to grow up seeking men that will abuse them. Neither scenario was acceptable from my point of view. My mom said, "think of the kids," and that's precisely what I did when I made him leave. Even with all considered, if I had to decide all over again, I would still put a stop to the things that were prevalent the day meltdown materialized. We don't always get what we deserve, but we always get what we allow.

I know I have to forgive him at some point for everything. I have already forgiven him for the things he did to me. But as of today, I have not been able to forgive him for the injuries his behavior has caused toward our children. I can't forgive him for that until I am no longer mad about it. Today, I am still mad about it.

Nancy. Great post.  I agree, the kids should come first.  As you state, If he is not there for them they will realize it later on their own. I think all fathers should pay whatever they can afford but if they don't want to pay they will not under most circumstances. I do however, think child support should stop when a woman remarries.  The new husband should be willing to take the whole family, not just the women.

Spam Code-KRDNL = Know Reality, Don't neglect Little ones.

If it sounded a little personal..that's because it was.  The divorce took place over 35 years ago.  The kids had a great stepfather, their dad turned out to be a great guy as a father, and we all get together of Christmas, Thanksgiving and birthdays.  We also all meet as a family for dinner from time to time.

As I said, I loved my kids a lot more than I resented my ex.  He was my ex....but he was their father.  Keeping it civil over the years has allowed my kids to grow up with two great extended step families and, in later years, friendship between their mother and father.

He didn't pay support in the first years but did later on when he was settled down and remarried.

Sad to say my second husband and I also divorced after the kids were grown but, once again, we remained friends and he is still a part of the family when he's in this area.  (He and current wife drive long haul truck together)

Like the Two Woves parable.  Which one do YOU feed.

Roy..I hope you didn't think that was directed at you.   The last line was directed at people who harbor bitterness to the detriment of their children and to themselves.

You were a fortunate man.

My friend's husband owes her at least $60k in back child support (13 years counting).  She says it's worth it for him not having a say in her son's life.  I guess she was lucky that he wasn't around.  qvjayne I'm sorry that this is happening to you.  It's infuriating to see someone abuse a failing system.

Child support services NEVER inforces anything.  They blow smoke with all their "promised" punishments to the dead-beat-parent.  But in the long run it is just "job security" for them and the dads/moms get off scott free.  Been there, done that.  Its a losing battle for the single parent and children.  I finally gave up and said f-it.  Now my kids are past 18 ,he still owes, but will probably never pay the back.

It may be great for the mom that the dad wont pay $60k but I think it's in the kids best interests to pursue the money assuming there is actually money to pursue (i.e. he has a well-paying job). Whether the father is present or not in his children's lives has nothing to do with his financial obligation to his kids.

I have disagreements with my ex-wife over visitation (my son lives in Canada). I would like to fly him on a plane to come see me (he's 10) but she feels that he should be chaperoned (i.e. she or a relative fly with him). I've done this a few times but I eventaully got sick of doing it (and too poor to afford it on a regular basis). It can cost over two thousand dollars for tickets for the both of them. I eventually asked her when he would he be old enough and she wont give me a straight answer. I'm even willing to pay the extra fee for the airline to chaperone my child on a non-stop flight to an airport where I could pick him up.

According to the judges, the time spent with the kids DOES matter in determination of obligation. If the Father spent 50/50 time parenting the kids, his obligation would be lower than if the kids are with Mom 99% of the time and see Dad 1%. The whole child support system has nothing whatsoever to do with the Mom (if she's the custodial parent). It's not about her- it's not about the dad owing her- It's about the dad owing the kids. I would never advocate anyone trying to turn the kids against their Dad. The more they grow, the more they realize on their own. What is lost by the Dad is worth far more than the money he owes them.

To respond to jfrancais- Every situation differs and even if you don't get to see your son as much as you would like, there are other ways to stay involved in his life. To save money and still spend time with him, you could fly to Canada and stay in a hotel, have your son with you for the time you are there, and return him safely when the visit is over. I'm sure both you and your ex want what's best for your son. Neither of you are likely to want him to be in a situation where he is unsafe- even for a moment.

I have a friend in Pennsylvania with 2 sons. Their Dad lives here in Bakersfield. When they first tried to simplify the visitation process, their mother flew with them and stayed with friends during their sons' visit with their Dad. When it was time to go home, She flew with them. After they got comfortable with the straight flights that are supervised, things became more laxed and ran much smoother. Try not to be confrontational with your ex about the age when she would feel comfortable with another arrangement. Take it to a higher authority (like the judge) to work out an agreeable and safe plan for your son. He needs you- not to hear you and his mother constantly at odds about his visits.