Thank you for this, RF

The doctor has posted other, similar pieces as well.  The *MOTHERS* are the human beings Dr. Tiller and Dr. Harrison were saving.

Thanks RF~ what a story.....and a refreshing change from all the vitriol.

O/T~ but I want to compliment you and TSM for handling all that disgusting "stuff" on the gone blog as well as you did. *Some* people should be ashamed of themselves.

Wow. What a story. Some people have such a hard time thinking these mothers getting abortions aren't real people with real problems. I guess it's easier to sensationalize than try to understand the whole scope of things.

Thanks for posting this, RF.  It goes along with the stories from women who Dr. Tiller had helped through the most difficult decision they can face.  A decision the most vocal of opponents, men, will never have to face.

And you're welcome, Sage.  The rights of people, whether gays or a woman's right to choose, should be defended with as much energy and passion as in the defense of home and hearth.

Some people should be ashamed, but won't ever be.

Off topic, but Witch Hunt comes out today on DVD. I'm getting it from Netflix tomorrow.

Thanks for that TSM~ I'm off to add it now myself.

Late Term Abortion – The procedures
There are three general procedures of late-term abortions and partial birth abortions. The first and most popular is called D&E (Dilation and evacuation). Once the cervix is dilated, the fetus is removed by inserting forceps into the uterus. The Fetus is then separated into pieces. These “pieces” of your baby will be removed one at a time. Vacuum aspiration is then used to ensure no tissue remains in the uterus.

The second procedure is early induction of labor. This is very painful and intense for the woman and is rarely used as an abortion procedure.

The third procedure is called Intact D&X surgery. This procedure includes a 2-3 day process to gradually dilate the cervix using sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell. Once this process is finished, the doctor uses forceps and grasps the baby’s leg to turn it to breech position. The baby is then pulled out of the birth canal, leaving the head inside the canal. An incision is then made at the base of the baby’s skull and the brain tissue is removed, causing the skull to collapse. The entire baby is then removed.

Late Term Abortion – A Personal Story
My name is Carey and I was born 4 months premature, weighing 1 pound, 1 ounce. As a baby, I was hospitalized for months and had heart surgery at only nine days old. I’m 22-years-old now and I have no major health problems. I survived! I was born at the size where many babies are aborted. In fact, many babies have been aborted that are far bigger than I was, which breaks my heart.

I know that right now it may seem like your baby isn’t real yet. However, I’m living breathing proof that a baby born severely premature, and can grow up to be a healthy adult. I’m thankful every day for all the care that my parents gave me before and after I was born, and I’m thankful for all the people who have been there to pray for me, and support me throughout my life, and even before I was born.

Whether you have realized it or not, you and your baby also have people who love you and can support you during this heartache. Sometimes I know it doesn’t look like it at all, but there are people who love you, and want you to live a life that doesn’t leave you with so much pain and regret. No matter what you have gone through in the past, no matter what decision you are facing now, there are people who want to help you, and want your baby to have the chance to live life.

there is no reason to attack me about an abortion if its a health risk. I agree. The ones that use it because they flunked health class or were just too busy to deal with it..*NO*

Those were plain and simple  *MURDERS*.

"Carey" didn't have tumors growing out of his stomach and wrapping around his spine.

"Carey" didn't have his brain calcifiying in the womb.

"Carey" wasn't born with severe birth defects which would have meant an early death or a lifetime of 24/7 care.

"Carey" wasn't a candidate for a late term abortion.

In other words, your story has nothing to do with anything.

Another pathetic attempt by the American Taliban to control a woman's right to choose.

TSM I would edit my post if i were you

soux, how's this?

 In other words, your "story" has nothing to do with the real life story above which you most certainly didn't read.

Dr. Mengele would be proud.

Two murdered babies is a happy ending?

The thing is anybody who thinks a woman just decides on a Tuesday to have an abortion for the heck of it,does not understand women.

It is an intensely personal matter with many factors that are taken in to consideration.

A woman alive is a happy ending. Especially for her.

A woman alive is a happy ending.

Yup, that is why when a pregnant women is having complications and her  life is in danger, they rush her to the emergency abortion clinic and do a D&E.....

How about the babies? I'm not sure how easily a woman lives with herself after having two of her babies killed because of convenience. Maybe I should ask Susan Smith.

Another story the American Taliban doesn't want to, and won't, read:

TSM I would edit my post if i were you

You rightwingers keep saying we can't capitulate to al Qaeda.

Well guess what, we're not going to capitulate to the American Taliban either.

I'm not sure how easily a woman lives with herself after having two of her babies killed because of convenience

You were asked in a different blog to provide proof that late term abortions were "because of convenience" and you disappeared from the blog.

Once again, where is your proof of your propaganda?

I think that Random, Sioux, and TSM all just proved that no matter how thin you slice it, there is always two sides to every story. 

I admit I have a tough time with this issue. I believe in some cases abortion is warranted. In some cases I think not. My question is where do all of you draw the line on when ending a pregnancy is appropriate.

Would the Right deny an abortion to a 13 year old raped by her own father and the baby had serious medical problems in say...the 3rd month of pregnancy?

Would those on the Left be for ending a perfect pregnancy in the 7th month simply because the mother changed her mind?

I think those extremes are why this issue will always be contentious.

Everyone has a line I suppose. Where is yours?

witbee,

Convenience? Are you kidding? You guys amaze me with your lack of understanding and compassion. Again, it's very obvious that you didn't take the time to read the story. Commenting on it without having read it just makes you look silly.

Does witbe have children of her own ?

--virgil

Would those on the Left be for ending a perfect pregnancy in the 7th month simply because the mother changed her mind?

RF and I have both come out and said we are against abortion.

But more importantly, we are for a woman's right to make that decision without interference.

I'd love to see proof that this has actually happened. I don't believe it for a second.

"Would those on the Left be for ending a perfect pregnancy in the 7th month simply because the mother changed her mind?"

Can you imagine how many "compromised" babies go on to have long, productive lives? I can name three that are in my circle alone. And, sadly, we will never know if this chick's baby was actually "compromised" as the baby is destroyed in the process of removal. Sounds like Mr. "Doctor" and Mrs. "Lawyer" didn't want an imperfect child.

That's assuming the story is even true.

witbee, you disgust me. I know someone personally that had to go through with something like this, and you have no clue how hard of a decision it is. You should be ashamed of yourself for making it seem like anyone in this situation is taking the easy way out. Even making ignorant comments like that bring back the pain that you'll never have the mental capacity to understand.

 You were asked in a different blog to provide proof that late term abortions were "because of convenience" and you disappeared from the blog.

Didn't see any questions of me. I typically don't go back to a blog when it is going nowhere. What type of proof are you looking for? You see, the babies are destroyed when ripped out. Hard to find prrof of anything that way.

Any way, if you read the entry (from the link), the woman had two abortions becasue she couldn't afford the kids.

"convenience"? I know you can read witbee. So you must not have read the provided link.

Thank you~ I live with my choice just fine,thank you.All of them.They are*all* dead now.

anti~ my "line" is that we spend as much,no more time,on the breathing children we have now,that we improve education and birth control options so choices like abortion need to be made less often.That we adopt more children,instead of endless warehousing  of them into the foster care system.

I am sick to death at the extreme ends of this issue.

We have a good law in place.

So you complain when someone doesn't want to have kids because they're poor, and complain about people on public assistance. I just don't understand that logic. Maybe because there's nothing logical about it.

Pete: You wound me. I never said it was easy. Far from it. Abortion in any form is generally a source of life-long mental anguish for most women who have it. That is what women need to know BEFORE they do it. Sure, there are women that don't regret it, or at least have convinced themselves of such. But the VAST majority of I talked to taht have had abortions regret it every day of their lives.

I had a lady tell me once that she had an abortion as a young wife because "she couldn't handle it." A few years later, she had another child. A few years after that, she lost her husband and child within 6 months of each other. She lamented how if she had not had the abortion, she would still have a family.

What do you know of this pain, Pete? Do you have any idea of my background? Is it possible I have some insight you don't? Is it possible I am closer to this than you? If I disgust you, then I suggest you don't eat before you read.

And let me reiterate: The killing of Dr. Tiller was not right or good. It was a horrible thing and in fact the worst possible thing to do to this guy.

 So you complain when someone doesn't want to have kids because they're poor, and complain about people on public assistance.

So you believe it is OK to murder babies because they are not convenient? At least we know where you stand.

For the record: I don't complain anout people who need a little help to get by for a time. I do complain about people who make a lifestyle out of being a babyfactory for public assistance. Especially when it is a simple thing not to make a baby.

Nobody has really said where their line is, except for perhaps TSM....sorta....so my question will be more direct for those on the left.

If a woman decides she doesn't want a baby without any problems or other baggage, (incest, rape), after 8 months and 3 weeks, do you support her right to abort?

Sage: from the link

Abortion #1: "On that occasion in the spring of 2001, Mary had an uncomplicated abortion, paid for by her parents, since she had no income and didn’t want her former husband, by whom she was pregnant, to learn of the abortion."

Abortion #2: "Both have barely minimum wage jobs with no benefits, and if they had the baby, she planned to deliver at home, as she had with her first pregnancy.....After talking with her husband, Mary decided, based on multiple factors, that she would abort. "

OK, the second one had multiple factors. My mistake.

I always find this arguement interesting.  From both sides really.   The general terms we all use to justify it, when all it boils down to is that regardless or if you think it is right or wrong, it comes down to how much control a woman has over her body.  And even that is a shoddy arguement.  Because if you truely feel the government shouldn't tell you what you can do to your body, then you are saying that doing drugs is ok.  That is just one example. 

Not being a general fan of abortion, I still feel that it should be an option for a woman or a family to make that decision. I have no doubt in my mind that it is a difficult decision and one that carries a lot of mental anguish.  I find it interesting that in this country, we worry more about the unborn than the kids living in foster care, the millions that are starving each day, the millions that die each year for wars they have nothing to do with. 

Sounds about right to me. 

antiextremism:  From the left---At that point, I would say deliver the baby and put it up for adoption.  So I guess my line is well before that.  I am more comfortable with nothing over 12-15 week range.  If not sooner than that. 

Anti: That is a good question. Believe it or not, I don't believe we can completely get rid of abortion. I believe there are instances when it is medically necesary. Unborn bables can survive at 6 months. If mom and her doctor decide that she needs to not be pregnant at 6 months or later, they should do everything they can save the baby. Prior to 6 months, three doctors should have to sign off on it being medically necessary and there should be a yearly cap on how many a certain doctor can recommend.

That is just off the top of my head.

I think the morning after pill is acceptable. I don't understand why anyone has a problem with it. I understand women having been changing their birth control pill dosage to accomplish the same thing for many years.

"If a woman decides she doesn't want a baby without any problems or other baggage, (incest, rape), after 8 months and 3 weeks, do you support her right to abort?"

Aw come on, couldn't you come up with a more unlikely scenario.

Oooh, I've got one. You're pregnant, terrorists have captured a family member and threaten to behead the family member and blow up California unless you get an abortion. Would you do it?

I personally know of well over a dozen women, even some family members, who had abortions while in high school and college because the pregnancy wasn't "timely." Not a single one of those women was free from regret afterwards and wished she hadn't done it. In fact, one of my college roommates was well into her second trimester before realizing she was expecting and she had the "seaweed" procedure. She spiraled out of control emotionally, drinking and using drugs, and ultimately had to take a semester off. 

I have seen it over and over, and I liken the thought process to that of a suicidal person; it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Pregnancy brings all kinds of emotions anyway, just by virtue of the hormonal changes. When abortion is so acceptable, and accessible, women without adequate support systems to encourage her to keep her baby will choose this route to "make it go away." 

But then, days, months, even years later suddenly it doesn't seem to them that it was such a big deal that they weren't married, done with school, etc. after all. Every single one of these women has expressed profound sadness, especially after carrying babies to term and becoming mothers later in life.

My opinions on abortion align with those I've seen expressed by FSG. If the life of the mother is at risk, OF COURSE the mother's life should be saved. 

I've just seen too many good people suffer after the fact.

Hey Catherine, I'm waiting on that "fun" blog, LOL  : )

I think the morning after pill is acceptable.

Then you stick with that.  I'm fighting to keep Plan B *AND* abortion available and safe.

.

Vanityfair, many, many women also regret having the baby.  It evens out.

Well, I gotta say, Random's been telling me for years that there have been worthwhile reasons for late-term abortions, but I could never believe him. 

My own "line" was always drawn at late-term abortions--until now. 

Thanks for the testimonials, you guys, and all I can say is man, am I lucky.  Lucky lucky lucky.  Both of my pregnancies were pretty much cake walks, and both of my kids are healthy. 

These women aren't going to get any scorn from me--nothing but sympathy.

Sorry, Vanity--still can't think of anything.  Wore out cooking blog ideas and no one ever seems to pay attention to my "Onion" blogs. 

Got any ideas?

You see Pete, that is why this issue is so contentious. Not everyone is willing to say where their line is.

Some of the conservatives are okay with certain circumstances, and most of the liberals are not too fond of the ridiculous sounding scenario I put forth.

Then it becomes WHO decides where the line is. And if an "official" line is drawn, like arbitrarily lets say 4 months, then someone will say 4 months is okay but 4 months and an hour isn't? Thus most people say yay or nay completely, till you give them hard to judge scenarios.

Both sides have valid arguements for differing scenarios. I think this whole issue will be on the hot plate long after Gay Marriage is resolved.

Lynda the lady that was the patient of  Dr Tiller was on CNN last nite and she stated she did not like what was being said, She did not wake up one morning with a headache and wanted a abortion, she and her family decided what to do in this tragic event.

Vanity: For me when I make a choice I have no regrets, I was 43 when I had my first, and I had to have tests to make sure everything was fine, The lady that interviewed  me was in a wheel chair she asked me what I was going to do if something was wrong with the baby, I looked at her and said When I find out the status then I will make my decision. I told my hubby did they put her there for a reason to make me feel guilty. I would have had a abortion if something was seriously wrong, and I would have made that decision not anyone else including my hubby. Is there sadness maybe for some, for me I had serveral miscarriage, the first one sad, but I don't feel bad now.  Thats me though and everyone is different in feelings. I support abortion and always will, I support sex ed and birth control etc and I believe they should be available to young people.

I think this whole issue will be on the hot plate long after Gay Marriage is resolved.

The only time it becomes a hot plate issue is when a doctor is murdered or a clinic blown up.

Conservatives for years have been getting elected by mouthing the words the religious right wants to hear, but once in office they do very little or nothing.  And the religous right keep voting them back in office.

Conservatives held all three branches of government for 6 years and the only bill they could pass was for a procedure which is rarely, if ever, used.

Roe vs. Wade, despite the platitudes from conservatives, isn't going anywhere.

I support sex ed and birth control etc and I believe they should be available to young people.

So do I.  And birth control is available..  My 5 year old son can buy a 500 count pack of condoms at Costco.  He goes for the extra large, just like his dad.    It is right at his eye level, near the pharmacy window....

Not sure how that prevents someone from getting a late term abortion of convienience....Then again, I aint the kind of guy to rush over to the emergency abortion clinic when my wife had pregnancy complications...

I agree with you there, TSM.  Roe V Wade is the law, and some people don't have to like it--they just have to follow it.  Unfortunately, we can't cherry-pick our laws, or I'm sure EVERYONE would change at least one or two.

It's pretty interesting that in 5 Republican Administrations spanning 24 of the 36 years since Roe V Wade was decided in 1973, here stands Roe V Wade still.   I guess THIS law is a keeper. 

and some people don't have to like it

Unfortunately when these people don't like it, they murder someone.

At least a couple of pro-lifers I've read elsewhere understand how much the violence is setting them back.