Wayfarer: To address your points in reverse order:

Arguing that Native American holy sites in public land should be destroyed is wrongheaded, and very different then arguments that attempt to keep the government from endorsing religion.  (It's kind of the same as the people who argue that student's shouldn't study books and paintings with religious content.) The historic Bhuddist statues in Afhganistan and the Native American holy sites here in America were created by private individuals as a personal expression of their beliefs (well before either country even existed of course). 

Leaving this private, historical sites on public land isn't exactly and endorsement of religion.  The government didn't pay to build them, and, unless they have historical value, the government doesn' t pay to maintain them.  Also, everyone is clear that they're historical sites, not symbols of the government's faith.

Letting public school teachers put on a living nativity show or lead a Christian prayer (for example) is a very different kind of case.  Here the teacher has a forum given to him or her by the state, and paid for by tax dollars and is using it to push a particular religion.

Steve your better than this..why would you start a blog on religion knowing from ALL THE OTHER BLOGS where the local atheists have a field day....it would just setup a blog to make people angry and hurt peoples feelings??

it seems the majority of posters on here are gay and or atheists..they dont need a good reason to condem people who believe in god..infact they enjoy it better than a good steak and a bottle of wine..

I hope in the future you refrain from instigating such dribble in an effort to generate blog posts..the article was fine as it stood..but to have people publicly attack and invte them to rip apart something this guy is wanting to do because he believes in it JUST AINT RIGHT BRO!  and you and everyone else knows it..cept maybe RF and a few of his buddies....some people just lost their souls and wont ever get them back.ya I know its.their god given right..but its really kinda sad..

wayfarer: 

As far as the other part of your post goes, I haven't argued that my religious beliefs (or lack thereof) should be given more or less weight than anyone else's.

I have argued, indirectly, that government exists to promote the freedom and well-being of the governed, that one part of doing this is protected minorities from powerful majorities, and that one such powerful majority is religion.  The roots of this argument come from people like John Locke, who inspired the founding fathers... I don't know that I can summarize it all here and do it justice, both because of my limited understanding, and limited space.

What I can say, however, is that this particular country was founded with similar principles in mind. 

The constitution starts:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Things like this indicate that the founding fathers did thing the justification for government was the well being of the governed -- the things listed as the purpose for forming the government are all benefits and freedoms citizens will enjoy.  

Look at the declaration of independence as well --- it basically makes the argument that human beings have inalienable rights, and that when a government doesn't protect/honor these rights it's illegitimate.

It also seems clear to me that one type of freedom that we're supposed to enjoy is the freedom to practice our religion as we choose (see the establishment clause of the first amendment).

When our government begins favoring one religion over another, or letting one religion force it's beliefs on others, it violates the basic principles it's founded on. 

I realize this is a bit of a weak argument (a little distracted here), and that it only speaks to our current country and its history... but I think it holds water.

(Please don't take any of this personally btw, like you (I'm guessing) I like to argue :-) ).

But Rh you have yet to show how your beliefs should carry more weight than anyone elses or why we should ban Christian monuments on public land ,but not those of other faiths.  Please stick to the subject and not try to distract us with fantasy straw men and slippery slopes.   

In response to your last post, then why should the government favor the atheist religion or secular humanist over any other? 

Smayer, I'm sorry I contributed to the negativity here. My initial comment was really a knee-jerk reaction to all the "rah-rah everything is fine we've got stimulus and it IS a great time to buy" crap flying around everywhere. People who use empty words when addressing our current economic climate drive me insane. I know that wasn't necessarily the topic of the article, but I wish people would stop with the cutesy wordplay and call a spade a spade. Bakersfield is a pit and it's only getting worse; far from "righteous."

I appreciate his optimism, though, no matter how futile it is.

siouxcityranch: "it seems the majority of posters on here are gay and or atheists" 

I don't get that impression at all... what makes you think this?  I know I'm neither.

siouxcityranch: "...inviting people to ... rip apart something this guy is wanting to do because he believes in it JUST AINT RIGHT BRO!"

I see where you're going with this, and I agree that it's kind of mean spirited to attack someone personally for something he was doing with good intenions.  I'm sure the guy making this stickers is a nice guy.

On the other side of the coin, doing something "because you believe in it" while admirable, does not mean you're not wrong, or not hurting anyone.  The Taliban murdered women and repressed its citizens because of what its leaders believed in. 

Promoting Bakersfield as  Christian city has, real negative consequences for those of us who live here and aren't Christians.  It encourages a general atmosphere of intolerance and opression, that in my mind is very un-Christian (as well as uncomfortable).

If you'd like all non-Christians to leave your city, then you should say that right out. 

Sioux you are right when ever someone mentions faith here.   Those suffering from personal issues with organized religion are quick to turn it into a forum of their ills.  Reading these blogs you would think that Bakersfield was the Soviet Union under Stalin. 

Rh did anyone say that all non Christians should leave the city?  No!  On this post  did anyone attack people ,because they attended a house of worship of any other faith than the atheistic one?  Yes!  If you preach tolerance than practice it;)   

wayafer

"But Rh you have yet to show how your beliefs should carry more weight than anyone elses or why we should ban Christian monuments on public land ,but not those of other faiths"

It shouldn't be Christian-specific.  We should prevent people from using the power of the government to promote any faith, Christian or otherwise.

"In response to your last post, then why should the government favor the atheist religion or secular humanist over any other? "

I think this is where a lot of mis-understandings start.  I'm not arguing that the government should favor the atheist "religion" or secular humanism.   There's plenty of opportunities outside of public schools and places like that for people to pursue their interest in religion and get a Christian (or other religion's) perspective on the world.

A certain kind of way of thinking has enabled us to make a lot of progress in the last several hundred years.  It involves focusing on what we can empirically, observe, arguing using reason, based on evidence, verifying what we believe to be true using experiments and so on.

This kind of thinking is not the only way of approaching the world.  It may have limitations.  It's not anti-religious, but it can potentially lead to certain types of anti-religiosity. 

Despite the potential for anti-religiosity, the usefulness of this way of looking at the world is enough to justify teaching it in schools.  This is not to say that explicit attaks on religion should be made in schools.  Wherever possible, we should point out that it's not a complete picture of the world, that there are many resources to learn about religion and that aspect of things, etc.

A "secular" education has proved it's usefulness, is not inherently anti-religious and can and should be supplemtanted by religious instruction at private instutions.  (Who would you rather have teaching your kid's about your religion anyway -- you and the leaders of your faith community, or some beauracrat?)

If people did that it's definitely a shame.  I fully support your right to practice your religion.  I just believe that your religion shouldn't be forced on my by the government anymore than my non-religion should be forced on you (as it was by communist governments).

I'm wondering if our disagreement is because you believe that keeping religion out of schools etc, is in fact forcing non-religion on kids. 

The Stalinist Russia thing is kind of extreme, but non-christians, or non-conservatives are in fact persecuted here.. just like I'm sure some conservatives are persecuted in liberal bastions.

Reading these blogs you would think that Bakersfield was the Soviet Union under Stalin. Hey, if that means free Vodka for everyone, then I say da comrade!

Not surprisingly, I have to side with randomhuman here. Would I be given a fair trial in this town if the jury knew I was an Atheist? If my employer ever found out I am a Atheist, my career would be in jeopardy, because my immediate boss is a Christian, and hates Atheists. What about when Bush 1 said that Atheists can't be Americans, because Americans believe in God? Add to that the negativity toward nudists and I'm doomed, DOOMED I SAY! Hence, the free Vodka...

Rh I am against any particular religion being taught in public schools.  That includes secularism and darwinism.  Not that I follow what is popularly called creationism.  But I think we should study the facts and weakness of all ideologies.  If you read all the comments on this post you will find that it was turned into a religious argument by those who identify themselves as atheist.  As a matter of fact atheist made the most comments on this post.  Which is why I remarked that it resembled the atheist ruled Soviet Union.  An outsider reading these things would never guess that the majority of Bakersfield was living a normal life and too busy to waste time on these blogs.  As for persecutions of non-Christians or non conservatives.  The fact is until, recently these blogs have been monopolized by those who identified themselves as atheist and liberal.  When I first started blogging here those people did everything they could to drive off those bloggers that didn't share their opinion.  A lot of them are no longer here and the rest just have less to say now that Obama is in power and that they can't blame their lives on the bogeymenn Bush and the religious right anymore.  On the other hand nit picking Mr. Obama, whom I see as trying the best, he can is another worrying trend for me.  Let me end on that and wish God bless you all with a good night;) 

RH Promoting Bakersfield as  Christian city has, real negative consequences for those of us who live here and aren't Christians. 

 now i understand your fear..it being that if Btown is promoted as a religious city those of you who have a problem with it might get out numbered and then you would really be uncomfortable living here..

well Breaking News Report its too late... your KIND are out numbered no matter WHAT the propaganda being generated  by a few misguided souls on the TBC blogs say..

RH siouxcityranch: "it seems the majority of posters on here are gay and or atheists" 

I don't get that impression at all... what makes you think this?  I know I'm neither.

ahhh a newbie..how QUAINT

RH I don't get that impression at all... what makes you think this?  I know I'm neither.

 denying you were neither gay or an atheist?? anti religious means atheist no matter which corner of the bed your looking under..and you have been spouting that through out this blog..or else your just LYING..which is it???

RH If people did that it's definitely a shame.  I fully support your right to practice your religion.  I just believe that your religion shouldn't be forced on my by the government anymore than my non-religion should be forced on you (as it was by communist governments).

DID ya CHOKE on yourself when you said this?? I know I did!! reads like an admission of guilt..your an atheist so admit it..

 RF, it’s a crying shame that Bobby Kennedy’s assassination made you into an Atheist. I still believe that he and Jack died because they bit the hand that fed them.

siouxcityranch

" now i understand your fear..it being that if Btown is promoted as a religious city those of you who have a problem with it might get out numbered and then you would really be uncomfortable living here..

your KIND are out numbered no matter WHAT the propaganda being generated  by a few misguided souls on the TBC blogs say."

I'm not an atheist -- I just don't have the arrogance to assume that I have certain knowledge about things like god, right, wrong etc.

No offense man, but the part I quoted from you above sounds like something from a lynch mob in an old western movie.  Do you really believe there's no place for non-religious people in your community?

"But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments."

Sound familiar? I don't care if you're atheist, Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist...The abuse of pride is spoken against across the board. The question is, is this bumper sticker an act of pride? I'd say most definitely, as it doesn't appear to be done in jest. 

On that note, I propose we run with it, and create "Bakersfield: The Center of the Known Universe"

OK so give me some good arguments and empirical observations;)

Evolution.

.

To me this is protecting the minority from an over-reaching majority.

What RH said.

 On that note, I propose we run with it, and create "Bakersfield: The Center of the Known Universe"

On that note, let make stickers that look lik yellow ribbons that say, "who doesn't support the troops?"

 RF, it’s a crying shame that Bobby Kennedy’s assassination made you into an Atheist.

I don't see any loss in that conversion, and a great deal of gain. 

The country suffered two great losses through their assassinations, and it wasn't at *ALL* that they'd been making bad deals.  Two random (excuse the expression) nuts affected the course of history, and there was no god to stop them.

New bumper sticker, "Bakersfield: It is what it is."

The print version "scraped" comments from this blog. Check out today's Local section.

Sense of community my ass.  I don't see that here and I've lived in several different areas in California.  Kindness?  During my visit there, I've received more kindess from strangers in Oklahoma than I have in my entire lifetime in California.  Actions always speak louder than words.  Let' see 'em, not hear about it.