My daughter was a joy until she got into teen years. Not so much me, but always bickering and arguing with her mother. For example, I can ask her, "Who were you talking to on the phone?" She'll answer so-and-so; her boyfriend dumped her and she just wanted to talk to someone. Her mother can ask the same question and it's, "Just a friend; God, why the 3rd degree?"

I thought I was pretty prepared for parenting but this has me stumped. Do daughters go through a "phase" of assertiveness with their mothers?

Try talking to someone; maybe your pastor; someone who is trained to give you some communication skills. If she's resistant, you can still go alone. Another option is a book called The 5 Languages of Love (or something like that. You can find it in any book store.) I've studied it in a Bible study group and actually found it very helpful. Please keep us posted. I pray you and your daughter find a place of friendship and respect in your relationship.

Thank you everyone so much for your comforting answers.  I will look into getting that book, jadecynic.  Maybe that will help. 

Audrey:  you do sound exactly like me and my daughter.  She tends to get very stressed about things and wants everything to be perfect in her home.  Well, that is great if you have the time and money for perfect.  Personally I gave up on "perfect" a long time ago.   Another problem is that my mother lives with her as they have a 5 br. 3 bath house.  Actually their house is huge with two stories, so there is plenty of room to get away by youself.   Anyway the problem is my  mother has severe dementia and mental illness.  She can really be a handful and usually drives most everyone crazy that she is around.  She is very negative and has depressed way about her all the time.  She always looks on the bad side of everything and sort of doom and gloom type person.  Sounds like a barrel of fun, right????   Well, I just ignore her most of the time.  

Anyway you can see that there are many problems here.  Also she has 4 children, who are basically very good kids, but they are kids and loud and noisy and demanding too.  

Again thank you everybody for trying to help me.  I know this will pass and is just a stage of life.  Why does it have to be so hard???  

You don't say how old your daughter is. When I was in my twenties, I tended to take everything my mom said to me that remotely resembled criticism personally. I had a strong feeling of "I am not you, and I will do things my own way, you don't know everything". Now we are very close and I talk to her at least once a week (my parents live out of state) and tell her everything, probably even more than she really wants to know! You also mention your good relationship with your son-in-law. My mother and my ex-husband got along very well, and she did tend to take his side quite often (that is, until she found out what he was really up to!). I resented it immensely, and maybe your daughter feels the same way, like she is second fiddle to her husband in your eyes. It is a bit like sibling rivalry, I think. Either way, as I matured, I got over these feelings toward my mom, and hopefully with time and experience, your daughter will do the same. Good luck, and peace. Don't give up.

I can relate SOX! from 14 up thru college years, my daughter was the bit** from hell! I "cured" her by giving back to her what she was dishing out to me! She didn't like it!  duhhhhh! She asked me why I was so rude & mean to her so I told her - THAT is how you treat me so if you want better then do better.

My mom (deceased) and my daughter could be clones! Clean freaks, controlling, manipulative, etc. My sister and I are functioning "slobs"! My daughter lives out of town but when she visits I get "critiqued" about my house cleaning skills, which are pretty much non-existent! I remind her that when she was a toddler I played with her instead of cleaning.....she asked me what my "excuse" was now - I told her "now I give a sh** and I have grand kids I play with"!!! If my daughter gets cranky with me, the first thing I ask her is "what did I do to make you so cranky"? If the answer is "it's not you but so and so" I tell her to back off and not take it out on me unless she wants a full out war started and finished by me! This usually makes her back off me. Hugs & tears and a discussion about what the real problem was.

When, as a teen myself, I would vacuum and dust for my mom and she would come in the room and criticize the "way" I did it and added that she could still see the dirt without her glasses.  I advised her to put her glasses on she could see the dirt even better!!  Of course this was said (by me) as I scooted out the door and down the street!!!! By the time I got back home she had simmered down and told me how rude I was and I let her know how rude I felt she was to me when I was just trying to help.  Hugs all around :-)

SOX: sometimes "keeping the peace at any cost" is not worth the price for your subsequent sanity. I'm 63 years old and I gave up the "game playing" a long time ago!!!  Sometimes, even if it hurts, you have to walk away and let the other person see what they are missing.

The following comments are not meant as a criticism to anyone here but to show how things could be even worse.  I have a friend whose mom constantly criticizes everything she does, wears,says,cooks,buys,etc.....For a few years now  I have seen the same behavior in her 19 year old daughter.  I mean nasty behavior. When we are on the phone I hear the daughter screaming the f word, the b word, you stupid cow,etc...  My friend is in the middle of a divorce and the verbal abuse from each of these "loved ones" is just getting worse.  Now the daughter is with child and the grandma is letting her ( the teenager) have a new load of bitter words. Plus of course it's my friend's fault the girl is pregnant.  My friend has struggled for the last 4 years with this girl to stay on birth control.  Actually was escorted out of Kaiser for raising her voice when they told her it was her underage daughter's choice whether or not she got a depo provera shot. The way the laws are parents cannot force their daughters to use birth control. After they turn 18 good luck getting them to do anything reasonable if they are already this wild. I remember when our children were in preschool together and my friend's mom criticized the color of her hair and said she was too fat and that she looked too old.  I could not believe it.  First because I thought my friend looked nice, way younger and thinner than I was. Second, I was raised in a home where no one would dream of  commenting on things like that unless your hair was truly hideous and your weight or haggard appearance were health concerns.  I know my mom discusses my extra pounds with my dad but she would never verbally attack me about it.  I have used my friend's situation as an example of how not to treat people.  I try to approach an issue with my children in a reasonable manner without attacking, but rather making suggestions and discussing the consequences.  Of course my boys know if they misbehave they " will be in so much trouble."   Groundings and loss of privileges, car, computer, xbox, college funding, etc.   As far as I know the worst thing my boys have done is tp our youth pastor's house.  My point is children learn by example and it isn't just their parents who they are watching.  If my mom behaved as poorly in front of my children as my friend's mom did in front of hers I would have told her my family was off limits to her until she could learn how to behave nicer.   I am in no way suggesting that you have  behaved anything like this.  I only know I'm glad I have boys.  About those aches and pains...have you tried MSM?    Maybe Yoga would help.

Sorry, can't help with your problem.  I did receive a Father's Day card from my two Grandkids that said "We're cool and you're cool but can you tell me what happened to the generation in the middle?"  Most mothers and their kids, especially daughters,  have their rough times getting along.  Aleays have and always will.

Again thank you everyone.  Excuse me if I don't come right back and answer everybody, but i am working right now.  So I really do not have a lot of free time to talk to you.  I will definitely come back this afternoon to talk some more.  I just love you guys -- Audrey, witterpitters, ghostriter and jade.  You are all just wonderful. 

PS:  My daughter is going to be 30-years-old.  Maybe she is having a crisis about turning 30.  She did say she was freaked out about not being young anymore.  Boy has she got a lot to look forward to, Huh.  

My own observation, as I travel a great deal: the phenomenon of rude young people is especially prevalent along the West Coast, and not so much in the Midwest, nor the South, or even the Northeast.

Coincidence? I think not.

I spent a portion of Saturday at a car wash for kids trying to raise money for Camp.  These kids not only did a great job washing my filthy pickup, they offered chairs in the shade and a cold drink with the $5 car wash donation.................not to mention the free hugs.   

My children took me out to dinner for my birthday.  My son drove my husband and me.  He has a lifted 4X4 truck.  When we got to the restaurant, my 16 year old niece took my hand and helped me out of the truck. (I was wearing a skirt and heels, it was quite awkward.)  She is a very sweet, caring young lady. 

Yeah, kids are rude.  But they are a product of their raisin'. 

Well, there you go.

My oldest boy has a huge, lifted 4x4 truck also, and he actually picks me up and puts me in the truck! I love it. Every once in a while he asks me to go 4-wheeling with him, and we have such a great time. I am very lucky. My kids are not rude, and most of the time will go out of their way to help someone out. When my elderly neighbor was ill, my son went to the store for her and picked up her medication and some food. I had volunteered, but he said, "that's okay, mom, I'll go". I am truly proud of all my kids; they are wonderful...most of the time!

 Everyone is born with a free will. Sometimes children from the best homes make the choice to reject what they've been taught and sometimes children from the worst of backgrounds choose to rise above their circumstances. As parents we have to be honest about our contribution to our children's choices and balance that with our children's choices of behavior. With that said, there is no argument that parental influence is HUGE. But it is not always the mother's fault!

I have no trouble with my grandkids as far as rudeness goes.  They are very loving and considerate of me.  Their Dad is very kind too.  They went to Cold Stone for ice cream and he insisted on taking me along.  He also refused to take my money.  whenever i go to dinner or movie shows, he always pays my way in.  Of course their kind of movies is not exactly what I like -- Golden compass,  Simpson's movie, Hulk.  So, usually I don't go.  You can see why I like my son-in-law so much.  He always treats me with respect and kindness.  Wish my daughter could learn some lessons from him.   Strange huh that my son-in-law would treat me better than my own flesh and blood.  Or maybe this is not so strange after all.   

Audrey:  You hit the nail on the head.  I mean about stress.  I am sure that is why my daughter acts that way too.  She has a hard time relaxing and always cleaning her house.  She lets her kids dominate the whole situation and they are very demanding with her.  They don't act like that with anybody else, except for her. 

Well, here is the other side of the coin of my daughter: Other then her mouth, she was never in or of any trouble in school; She helped me take care of my mom when needed, Dr's office, groceries, etc.; she got A's & B's in school; went to college; graduated with an AA & a BS later got her RN; has been here for me whenever I have had surgery; flew in from Virginia when her aunt had breast cancer and needed help at home (up north); she has 2 boys who wouldn't dare speak rudely to anyone (except each other!) or they get reprimanded and/or smacked on the butt!; both boys in scouting, oldest close to Eagles badge, both play little league baseball and travel ball, golf & football; both boys get A's & B's in school; both are held responsible for ALL their actions good or bad!

My daughter and I have had and sometimes still have issues (she is 42) but in a crunch we are there for each other no matter what. When first grand son born, I took 2 weeks vaca and flew back to Kentucky. When she called during her second pregnancy and asked me to come and help as she was so sick (she had the pregnancy's from hell-sick whole 9 months), I didn't even give a thought to TELLING my boss I was taking a weeks vacation to go and help my daughter! She lived out of town at Camp Pendelton.

My son-in-law is a whole other blog!!!!

SOX:  anyway you could take your daughter to dinner or lunch and just talk? Let her know there will be no confrontations, no rudeness, just talk about what is bothering each of you without interruption.  Each of you get 5 min to, politely, ask what is wrong, tell how you feel, what direction you would like the relationship to take. Then keep quiet while the other gives answers. Then each of you discuss the answers.

My daughter and I have done that a couple of times!! A couple of times that also included my sister! After all was said and done, we realized what we were fussin' about wasn't that big a deal except in our own minds!  Clears the air!

AUDREY: Why do you think that what DG had to say would make someone feel bad? If anything, after my bit** post I read DG's post and realized hey, there are a great deal of wonderful things my daughter did and does. Actually brought out the "positive". Her post did not make me feel bad just reflective.

RE: Catpaws post.  There seems to be that age old rivalry between members of the family who are also of the same sex.  Once when my daughter was a teen she took it upon herself to rearrange my entire kitchen.  I told her to put it back the way it was and when she got her own home she would be free to put things wherever she chose.  Until then, leave it be.  I think that might have been the two women in the house rivalry thing going on.   The relationship with the father is totally different in that there's no competition for resources.  Daughters and mothers have been known to clash since time began but that doesn't mean there's not deep love too.    Mothers are often closer to their sons as well.

I always remember the old saw that goes.

"A son is a son til he takes a wife, but a daughter's a daughter for the rest of your life."

It isn't that way in my family but hey, no two families are really alike.

Audrey, I'm so glad you know me well enough to assess me as a phony Christian.   You wouldn't know me if I said, "God Bless You" when you sneezed.  I'm reminded of a few days ago when there was an attack on Robin, a sweet 19 year old girl, whom I know.  I grow so tired of people focusing on the faults of today's youth.  Could it be, that's the problem.  After all, Children Learn What They Live.  I was given this poem my junior or senior year in high school by Mr. McQuinn, my psychology teacher.  It was on my refrigerator for many years, but as school art and A papers go up, something has to come down.

Children Learn What They Live
By Dorothy Law Nolte, Ph.D.

If children live with criticism, they learn to condemn.
If children live with hostility, they learn to fight.
If children live with fear, they learn to be apprehensive.
If children live with pity, they learn to feel sorry for themselves.
If children live with ridicule, they learn to feel shy.
If children live with jealousy, they learn to feel envy.
If children live with shame, they learn to feel guilty.
If children live with encouragement, they learn confidence.
If children live with tolerance, they learn patience.
If children live with praise, they learn appreciation.
If children live with acceptance, they learn to love.
If children live with approval, they learn to like themselves.
If children live with recognition, they learn it is good to have a goal.
If children live with sharing, they learn generosity.
If children live with honesty, they learn truthfulness.
If children live with fairness, they learn justice.
If children live with kindness and consideration, they learn respect.
If children live with security, they learn to have faith in themselves and in those about them.
If children live with friendliness, they learn the world is a nice place in which to live.

Copyright © 1972 by Dorothy Law Nolte

AUDREY:  ok.

Guess I'm outta the loop! I don't deal well with phony anybodys!  Since I don't know DG on a personal level I'll just stay out of it!

I give people equal opportunity to mess with me but when they do with no reasonable explaination, we're done.

Since part of the problem is being a caretaker for a mentally ill elder, you might mention the family support group at NAMI to your daughter. If that stress is indeed part of what is stressing your relationship, having a support group might help. Their website is www.namikerncounty.com/

Interesting video.  If you haven't seen is before take a look.  Even if you have, it's worth seeing again. 

Kids see..kids do

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

(edit..that was a whooopsie..lol.  Jade brought to my attention that I put the wron glink up.  I changed it but here's the one that was hilarious just in case.  Is it Monday?  lol)  (totally off topic, I ran across it while looking for the link to the one about children.)

 Nancy - That may not be the link you thought, but it was hilarious!!! ;0}

Audrey, because I defended the kids, you're assuming I'm being smug about it.  And there in lies the problem.  You don't know me or my heart.  I don't often see rude youngsters, because when I'm approached by them, I offer a smile rather than a scowl.  Kids respond in kind. 

My daughter was 5' 10" in the 5th grade.  And no, she wasn't held back.  By the 3rd grade, she was in the back row of her class picture with the teacher.  People often expected more from her than she was mature enough to give.  I learned a great deal from her.  She wasn't too big to have her feelings hurt.  She wasn't too big to behave like her 5' tall friends.  She wasn't too big to sit on my lap and cry.  She may have been 5' 10" tall, but she was still a 10 year old child.  I went to the mat more times than I care to remember because teachers and administrators expected more from her than the other children.  My daughter is 33 and stands a proud 6' 1/2".  She has five children of her own.  Her oldest was 6' 2" as a freshman.  All three of her girls are very tall, and her 12 year old looks more like a 16 year old.  My daughter is fighting the same battles for her children I fought for her. 

The kids are the ones who are suffering here.  Whether or not you remember, childhood and adolescence are difficult to say the least.  Constantly pointing out their flaws is the exact opposite of what we should be doing.  We should find the good and focus on that.  Celebrate it!  You don't have to agree, but I am entitled to my opinion.

added:  I think witters got it.  A public forum, where everything is in black and white, isn't the best place to pitch a b***h about our kids.  I know my kids would be hurt if they saw I had posted negative things about them where others could read it. 

Audrey...I agree with you on many points. It doesn't matter how well you raise your kids, they ALL go through that selfish, rude stage in life. When your kids go through their teen years, you ask yourself, "God, where did I go wrong?" Then as they enter adulthood, that sweet version slowly reappears. Yes, we all know the good, wonderful, and helpful side of our children, but the point of this particular forum is to rant about things that piss us off! I'm sure if the Pope himself had a daughter, she would go through stages of being a rude, disrespectful teen.

Shwaine:  Thanks so much for the web site.  You are probably more right than you can imagine.  No one can understand how hard it is to be around someone who is mentally ill or who is demented.  They act weird around other people.  My mother will come out in company and sit stiffly staring at everyone.  This is really unerving to say the least. 

My daughter says that many of her friends do not want to visit at her home, because of my mother.  It is really sad in a way.  My mother has never been much of a social type person, but now she has really become withdrawn and strange.  She comes out and has no social graces at all anymore.  She just sits and stares at people.  I am sure this must drive my daughter crazy.  I know it does me.  Also her perception of what is real and fantasy is greatly distorted.  She keeps telling us to forget about getting B-day presents from her, because she is broke.  In actualitym, she has a very nice savings account with more than $100,000.  After awhile this can grate on your nerves.  I really have to leave because it is maddening. 

I do like your poem DR.  I have heard of this before and believe this is very true.  I was raised with rdicule and criticism.  So, I have tried to praise and compliment my daughter about everything.  Maybe I over-did it, because she certainly has a healthy amount of confidence in herself.  But I am glad she does.  It is awful growing up thinking you are ugly or stupid or fat or some such thing.     I think this is about the meanest thing parents can do to their children -- making them think they are not good for anything.   Now my mother pretty much ignored me when I was growing up.  She had too many personal problems, and spent a lot of time drinking, so she was not even aware that I was around most of the time.  She was always fighting with her husbands -- about 5 or 6 -- forgot the exact number.   So you see I started being in a hole figuratively speaking.  I had to learn how to gain confidence and learn how to love myself, which was not so very easy to do.   But I did survive a very bad childhood and tried to raise my daughter differently so she would have a head-start in life, which she does.