Now you've done it. All kinds of people are going to come out of the wood work and call you racist, bigoted, ignorate, etc. and golly, you just don't understand that moslems are peaceful and how dare you infer Islam is a murder cult. Hard to believe, but there really are people who would excuse murder so as not to "offend" moslems  who say murder is a religious duty.

Offense, thats funny. I have a cousin we are really close, he was part of the first wave or Army Rangers sent to Afghanistan to find Bin Laden. He did 2 1/2 years there and came back alive, but different. He has since got married has a little boy, life is good. He recently got papers saying he has to go back and this time to Iraq. So yeah Im a little offended.

Just like the Christian Bible, the Quran has different interpretations depending on which version you read.  After viewing part of this video, I'm pretty sure that the translation being used is that of the Wahhabist translations from Saudi Arabia. 

One thing to point out is that the vast majority of Muslims do not believe in Wahhabist Islam.  Another point to make is that Islam, Christianity and Judaism are seen as worshipping the same God, in the eyes of the average Muslim, and therefore, these scriptures should not and do not apply to Christians or Jews.  However, there are politically motivated individuals within Islam who do use scripture to their advantage and brainwash followers.  It's honestly no different than Christian fundamentalists who twist Biblical passages to convert followers and support their violent acts.

I'd like to add - the Wahhabist translation actually adds words, usually in paranthesis, that are not in any other translation of the Quran.  It's a bit ironic that we have such close political ties with the very country who supports one of the most radical versions of Islam.

I didnt research who made that video, but I think it did its job. It provoked immediate anger and hate. I guess kinda like how we are portrayed over there. Funny how that works. Oh and by the way I'm back in my right senses, I dont wanna see any innocent people wiped off the face of the earth.

Google Geert Wilders.... he is one interesting dude. Just like not every Christian wants to firebomb doctors offices that perform abortions,not all Muslims want to murder~just the nut jobs.Murder is wrong~ period. Wishing your cousin all the best.

Sage - always polite, thank you.

FSG - always informative, thank you.

You're welcome, Grizzly.  There are many things about Islam and the Middle East that people do not understand or know about.  Yes, there are those who believe in Islamic Fundamentalism.. but in the grand scheme of things, they are few and far between.  It is unfortunate that many of them have taken complete advantage of the internet and tv to push their agenda's, and in doing so, have created a false representation of the Islamic community as a whole.

There is much hate in the world.. and it comes from all walks of life.

Christian fundamentalists--even sick and twisted ones--do not murder teachers and children on a school bus, bomb wives and mothers at a market, or execute husbands and fathers going to work at a menial job. These victims are not collateral damage, they are the intended targets. Moslems murder other moslems at 10 times the rate of foreigners, including American troops in combat uniform.

Anyone who says Islam is a peaceful religion is deluded. Anyone who believes it is beyond naive. Thousands who have lost loved ones to murder know Islam for what it is. Like most modern religions, Islam is a backward superstition of the middle ages, without a reverance for life.

Religon is a bad thing generally. See history. 

You forgot that Fundamentalists don't hack off heads on a video and place it on the internet.  They wouldn't gather in the streets and cheer and dance at the deaths of a successful airplane attack costing the lives of almost 3000 people.

There's a big differece in being a radical nutcase and being part of a religion that glorifies the deaths of infidels.

Agreed ~see history.

They wouldn't gather in the streets and cheer and dance at the deaths of a successful airplane attack costing the lives of almost 3000 people

Look at all the Americans, including fundamentalists, who cheered Shock & Awe that caused the deaths of a lot more than 3,000 people.

Christian fundamentalists--even sick and twisted ones--do not murder teachers and children on a school bus, bomb wives and mothers at a market, or execute husbands and fathers going to work at a menial job. These victims are not collateral damage, they are the intended targets.

Really, now?  How would you explain abortion clinic bombers?  How about the Army Of God, which sent over 150 clinics and Dr.'s offices envelopes with a white powder they claimed to be Anthrax? What about the countless atrocities of the KKK - who claim to be Christian?

Moslems murder other moslems at 10 times the rate of foreigners, including American troops in combat uniform.

This is correct - but you're forgetting (or maybe you just don't understand) the context for why Muslims kill each other.  The Sunni/Shia splits have many similarities with the Catholic/Protestant splits of Christianity.  When added up, you can deduce that Christians have killed more Christians..

Anyone who says Islam is a peaceful religion is deluded. Anyone who believes it is beyond naive. Thousands who have lost loved ones to murder know Islam for what it is. 

And just how much do you even know about Islam?  Do you understand the history of the religion, or the history of it's peoples?  Can you honestly say you have enough knowledge to make such claims?

Like most modern religions, Islam is a backward superstition of the middle ages, without a reverance for life.

That's an opinion, and not factual.

Catpaw...some examples of how you are wrong...

Timothy McVeigh

All American serial killers (most are white-bred middle class Americans from Christian families)

MIsbehaving Catholic priests (don't commit murder but child molestation is just as bad)

American gangs (what the heck is with drive-bys and home invasions)

The Crusades (should I say any more)

Muslims who observe their religion are more concerned with their own position with God.  A person who prays five times a day is literally coming before God each time.  Islamic fundamentalism as we see is politically motivated.  The Middle East suffers from post-colonialism and poor governance.  Plus, the issues with Israel and Palestine cloud better judgment.  These are big issues.  Most Islamic terrorists come from poor families and have not even learned how to read their Quran.  Education is a privilege in these areas rather than a right as in the U.S.

I have been a Muslim for 5 years.  I promise you that there is beauty in Islam that is not necessary evident on CNN and FoxNews.  I even went for Hajj in 2006. 

I don't expect to change your mind.  Only that I would hope for you to see that individual people have a tendancy for evil.  An entire group of people should not necessarily carry that definition as a whole.

They wouldn't gather in the streets and cheer and dance at the deaths of a successful airplane attack costing the lives of almost 3000 people.

Yes, there were Muslims who celebrated; there were also Muslims who mourned.  Grouping all followers of Islam together is not accurate.

There's a big differece in being a radical nutcase and being part of a religion that glorifies the deaths of infidels.

It can be said that Christianity glorifies the deaths of unbelievers as well.  Once again, it's a matter of context and interpretation.  One of the Quran's biggest flaws is that many of the scriptures, much like the Christian Bible are contradictory, and in many cases left up to individual interpretation.

Also interesting to note: there was a discovery not too long ago of what is believed to be the oldest Quran.  A German researcher has concluded that it's quite possible that the modern Quran is not an accurate translation from the original intent of Mohammed. 

 Most Islamic terrorists come from poor families and have not even learned how to read their Quran.  Education is a privilege in these areas rather than a right as in the U.S.

That really depends on which terrorists you're referring to.  For example, the majority of the terrorists who participated in 9/11 were very well educated.  It's quite interesting - most came from secular families who rarely went to the Mosque.  It wasn't until these young men went to Europe to study abroad that they became interested in their ancestral religion and culture.  Europeans are extremely ethnocentric, and were not so welcoming to Arab students (much less any Arabs..), and this drove the young students to seek out each other in an attempt to feel accepted in the community.  It so happens that the one place they knew they'd find others of similar background were in Mosques.  Radical leaders were able to take advantage of the situation, and build upon the frustrations of the students towards their treatment in Western culture.

You forgot that Fundamentalists don't hack off heads on a video and place it on the internet.

They would if they thought they could get away with it.  "Thou shalt not kill" only applies when it's *THEIR* neck on the chopping block.

By the way, happy PDB Day, everyone.  Seven years ago today Shrub gave bin Laden the Gift That Keeps On Giving.

Thanks for filling in my curt *see history * all...... 

Tracy - I respect your opinion and do not for a second classify you or other believers like you in the same class as these terrorist. But I don't think your examples are as widely celebrated as catpaw's examples. We don't celebrate anyone of the examples you provided. They are horrendous acts without a doubt but we don't parade them.

GrizzlyCoach, unfortunately some people do celebrate those examples (especially when it comes to abortion). Of course there are no staged parades because in this country we like to sweep that kind of stuff under the carpet or celebrate behind closed doors.

Not only should you not classify Tracy in the same group as extremists, but you should exempt at least 3/4 of muslims as well. When you make blanket statements about a group, but exclude the ones you personally know, it sounds a little bigoted.

Also important to note is that most "celebrations" that are being referred to only happen in specific countries, most notably the ones we have the strictest policies against.

Pete you lost me. I have never heard a goup of people celebrate serial killers, or the molestaion of children.  I dont have a problem being labeled a bigot, but look at what was written..."I respect your opinion and do not for a second classify you or other believers like you in the same class as these terrorist." Also I dont beleive abortion was one of her examples.

Also important to note is that most "celebrations" that are being referred to only happen in specific countries, most notably the ones we have the strictest policies against.

The only celebrations that have been documented as fact happened in the Palestinian territories and Iraq.

They both had good reason to celebrate the attacks considering our foreign policy against them.

I would have to contend with you about "celebration".  Mainstream Muslims are sickened by terrorism the same as anyone else.  No more different than the world being sickened by the slaughtering of Muslims by the Serbs.  Inhumanity by any participant is disgusting and against the precepts of any known religion. 

The Palestineans are an excellent example of bad foreign policy.  There are huge refugee populations of Palestineans living in Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon.  Many are disenfranchised from the main population and not given the same access to work and education.  These are people without a country.  I sometimes wonder how things could have better been handled with the initial inception of Israel as a country 60 years ago.  Was it best to oust families out of their homes?  Was it best to establish a pseudo-apartheid way of living?  The issues between the Palestineans and Israel are big.  Both sides have blood on their hands.  With Ehud Olmert retiring next month, there is no immediate solution.  I see that Syria is participating in indirect negotiations with Israel via Turkey.  Interesting.  But, it is not likely that anything will be accomplished during Bush's presidency.  (Off topic...you know that the majority of Muslim Americans initially voted for Bush.)

BTW, I don't think you are bigoted.  I think that if I were a different person and watched mainstream media, I would be scared of Muslims also.  :-) 

I won't hold my breath waiting to see Americans dancing in the streets over the MURDER of over 3,000 innocent civilians in the name of some deity and his "prophet."

 I won't hold my breath waiting to see Americans dancing in the streets over the MURDER of over 3,000 innocent civilians in the name of some deity and his "prophet."

Instead, Americans stick their heads in the ground like an Ostrich, indifferent to the many atrocities the U.S. Government has played a hand in over the decades.

Told ya so:

First it's "look at what all those christians are doing."  Then there's the crusades, that 1000 yr. old event is mentioned everytime.  And of course, I just don't understand the nature of a blood cult....got that right.

TracyAlt: Be a moslem for another 5 years. Keep track of the body count. Don't try to change my mind. Instead of going on another Hajj, go to, say, Russia and tell the parents of the murdered school children that they've got it all wrong. I'm sure they'll feel enlightened.

FSG: I have read the Koran. Real page turner. I know what it says.

Only a completely narrow minded person would go to someone else and say their religion is all wrong. How much more insulting could you get?

How about narrow minded persons who murder helpless people for God and then minimize and excuse it? That sounds alot more insulting than anything I could say.

catpaw.  What about Rwanda?  Rwandans are primarily Catholic and Protestant.  The Rwandan genocide in 1994 was committed by Christians against Christians.  There was plenty of dancing in the street as Bishops and clergymen participated in the bloodbath.  Evens nuns helped with the murders of the Tutsi.  The Catholic church was silent on condeming the genocide for a LONG time.  So, I'll keep a body count if you do also.  

  have read the Koran. Real page turner. I know what it says.

Reading something doesn't mean you understand it within context.  If we took the Christian Bible literally word-for-word, our society would be extremely different than it is today. However, just as the majority of Muslims look at the Quran in context, Christians do the same with the Bible, etc.

How about narrow minded persons who murder helpless people for God and then minimize and excuse it?

You've pretty much summed up almost every single person fighting in every single conflict on this planet.

Those of you who continue to bring up fundamentalist and right wing extremists know in your heart of hearts that they do NOT celebrate the deaths of people of other religions.  You know in your hearts that Christians do NOT cheer the deaths of innocents.  Innocents are killed in battle situations but you KNOW Christians do NOT strap bombs on children and send them to their deaths with the promise of paradise.

Bringing up the crusades or the witch burnings of Salem have nothing to do with the battle we fight TODAY.  It would be helpful if, when discussing the actions of Muslim extremists and the devastation they bring to those NOT in battle areas (like the streets of London, Spain, and New York ie) you keep what the US is doing TODAY regarding casualties,  and not in the distant past.

Bringing up the crusades or the witch burnings of Salem have nothing to do with the battle we fight TODAY.  It would be helpful if, when discussing the actions of Muslim extremists and the devastation they bring to those NOT in battle areas (like the streets of London, Spain, and New York ie) you keep what the US is doing TODAY regarding casualties,  and not in the distant past.

I'll spell it out in plain English - Muslim extremism is no different than Christian extremism - both parties are not true followers of their respective religions, as they glorify and worship a distorted view of spirituality.

As per what Americans do today, I've listed examples of "Christian" extremists who are still operational in today's world, whom many in this country do not so much as consider for their heinous acts.

If you want to speak of U.S. Government sponsored murder, I can direct you to Iraq during the 1980's when Saddam Hussein ordered the mass deportation, and in certain instances, mass execution of the Kurdish peoples.  The Reagan administration knew about this and did nothing, for the sheer reason that the timing was incorrect - and that Iraq would be more useful as an ally against Iran than another foe to contend with.

In fact... take a look at this extremely long and extensive list of U.S. military inverventions over the past 200+ years.  Whether you like it or not, our past does play an extremely significant role in our present, as it has molded and shaped our foreign policy (especially Cold war era and beyond).  Much of the anguish and hatred towards our country is due to these many invasions.

http://www.globalpolicy.org...

To sit here, point the finger and act like we're really that much better than anyone else is laughable, in my opinion.  Plenty of Americans have looked the other way and ignored the many times we've destroyed millions of lives.

Actually, Nancy, they do celebrate such deaths. Re-read Twain's "The& nbsp;War Prayer" for a slightly more updated view than the Crusades.

What the US is doing today is dropping bombs on people from great heights.  I'm sure the kids under them appreciate that extra touch, in contrast to the people who carry the bombs in by hand.

I refuse to hate/call/them murders,whatever,either Muslims or Christians.I have met some,they are good people. I do hate some things done under the cloak of religion~ bloody hands everywhere.

TracyAlk: Yeah, I know when christians were burning old ladies for being witches, Islam countries were a safe haven for the persecuted, including Jews. I know education and science was revered by moslems and the preserved knowledge is what got Europe out of the dark ages. I know christian pilgrims were afforded protection, safety and hospitality by moslems, even during the crusades. I know Saladin's edict spared the lives of thousands of christians when he took Jerusalem.

Whatever Islam was or is supposed to be has somehow become an abberation. If radicals have degregated Islam it is because it was allowed to happen. The apathy and tolorance of moslems is as much to blame as the actions of the radicals. I'm sorry if my take on the subject has affronted your sensibilities. In good conscience, I cannot be politicly correct when speaking of the atrocities committed by your brethren. The innocent victims do not deserve the disrespect. As an astute believer you should realize that telling me what somebody else did, or what's going on in Africa, does not mitigate the deeds. When sincere moslems return errant radicals to the peaceful precepts of Islam, you will have changed my mind.

know in your heart of hearts that they do NOT celebrate the deaths of people of other religions.  You know in your hearts that Christians do NOT cheer the deaths of innocents

Read up on how the Christian Serbs celebrated the massacres of innocent Muslim women and children and then get back to us on that.

Whatever Islam was or is supposed to be has somehow become an abberation. If radicals have degregated Islam it is because it was allowed to happen.

Historically speaking, the decline of Islamic enlightenment, intellect and appreciation for other cultures was a direct result of European influence starting in the mid-19th century.  The nail in the coffin was the post-WWI breakup of the Ottoman Empire and a forceful acceptance of European imperialism. 

In other words, Islam has replaced enightenment and intellect for barbarism because of a colonial europe. Interesting theory.

Well, religion in general tends to replace enlightenment and intellect.

There are lots of reasons why religions can be distorted to use for political or ego maniacal reasons.

The Koran is full of violence and so is the Old Testament. In the modern era there are a lot less oppressed Christians than oppressed Muslims. Catholics and Protestants may have their differences, but since they have homes, a car, three square meals etc. they are not resorting to violence against each other. The Shia vs Sunni vs Kurd etc thang has gone on forever much less Muslims against Jews or Christians. All three have been on each others hit list at one time or another. After years of Sunni oppression, the Shia don't just want peace, many of them want revenge. The Palestinians are pissed because the West more or less took their land and gave it to the Jews, for what the WEST did to the Jews. Giving back America to the Indians wouldn't fly here either. The Palestinians have done some awful and violent things, but history shows that when you are militarily inferior, you resort to terrorism.

Most Muslims are not violent. But there are way too many that are. They are mad, and they use verses in the Koran to justify their violent ways the same way the Crusaders did, the same way the Inquisitors did etc.

"God is on my side" has been used since humans have first started dreaming them up. Apollo was on the Trojans side, Odin favored the Norsemen. Most actually believe it, but most of their leaders are taking advantage of religion and just using it for their own purposes. The video is meant to be inflammatory, and no one can look at it and not get pissed. But we need perspective here, especially about labeling the many by what the few do. Otherwise, we are no different than them. 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm...

Some are trying to "come together",a good sign.

 In other words, Islam has replaced enightenment and intellect for barbarism because of a colonial europe. Interesting theory.

Once again, you fail to see that Islam itself is not at fault for the fanaticism of a few.  There is a much more in depth and complicated series of events which happened in the past number of centuries which have contributed to an overall decline in the cultural stability of the region.  Most issues that the Middle East has faced in the last 150 years has been a direct result of European domination over the region.  In such times of turmoil, it is only natural for people to turn to their spirituality for guidance.  Many have been able to have a symbiotic relationship with their Islamic heritage without accepting a radical viewpoint.

However, there have been multiple events in recent times which have created even more issues... Israel, the failed Arab league/pan-arabist movement (which was by far the most secular in nature), U.S. influence in Iran which ultimately spawned the 1979 revolution, Western influence and involvment in oil, the Cold War... etc.  Many of these people are upset because Western nations have had a detrimental affect on their lives, and they'd prefer it if we left them alone.  That being said, the vast majority of people in the Middle East do not hate us, nor do they want "death to America" or "death to Israel."  They want what we want - to live in peace.

These issues are far more complicated than religion alone.

One should also not lump all Christians in with American Christians. Fanaticism en masse is not really necessary here. Of course you don't see Christians loppin' off heads here in the States. But you also don't see American Muslims hacking off Christian heads here either.

Now for a modern view of Christianity being used for evil purposes, don't forget about the struggle in the former Yugoslavia. Many ,many Muslims were murdered by Christians. That doesn't mean that Christians are inherently violent anymore than Muslims. It just means that people wanted to ethnically and politically expunge those that are not desirable to them.

I don't blame Christianity for the anthrax deaths done by a Christian pretending to be a Muslim. It was just one brilliant but psychotic individual. HE felt oppressed. In the Middle East,GROUPS of people feel oppressed. Most of that oppression is perpetrated by fellow Muslims, but it is much easier to blame those that are different such as Jews or Christians.

There are two glaring differences to me. Christians on the whole share a happier lot in life. They have as sordid a past as any, but since their situation is better on the whole than Muslims, there is not a lot of terrorizing going on. The other difference is, of course, that Mohammed WAS somewhat the terrorist due to the traditions of ancient arab culture, and Jesus was an extreme pacifist. I believe that Jesus teachings ARE morally superior than Mohammed's, however, Christians have fallen well, well short of Jesus' teachings in the past and even now. The whole 'God is on my side' has been used ad nauseum for many millennia by every culture, including American culture.

It would be nice if Iraq did turn into a shining light of democracy, but don't count on it. The same video in which we just watched is the same thing many Iraqis went through for many, many years. The vast majority of them are glad Saddam has met his deserved demise, but they get just as pissed about a misplaced 500 lb bomb killing their kids as we do watching Americans jumping off the twin towers. The average Iraqi didn't ask for it any more than the Americans in the towers.

These people are terrorists who happen to be Muslims. Islamic terrorists are the killers d' jour. Just because the Koran says kill the infidel, doesn't make all Muslims murdering terrorists anymore than all Christians being terrorists for all the violent quotes in the Old Testament.

Very well said.

Of all the news shows after 9/11, one interview stood out above all. 

First, I've had many friends from middle east region when I was in college and thought well of most of them.  I didn't care for the way they always stayed with eachother (didn't assimilate very well), but I figure that's just a language barrier.  Most were very religious, but didn't seem fanatical.  We never really did discuss religion or politics, but we did enjoy drinking together and on occasion went to bars to socialize - hit on opposite sex - for fun.

After 9/11, Diane Sawyer intereviewed these two brothers that had returned to their home country (I forgot) from attending some university in the states. They had returned because their parents were worried about retaliation towards them.  In this interview, Diane asked how these two brothers felt about the 9/11.  These two brothers didn't appear to be a typical fanatical looking (long beared, muslim clothed and so on), but looked like ordinary middle eastern students attending a college in US (clean shaven, western style clothes, spoke english very well, very cordial).  The interview I remembered was the two brother being very happy about the attack and felt that the US deserved the attack.  They justified the attack as in a big kid has to be punched once in a while or something to that affect.  These two brothers could have very well been any of those friends I had in college.

Yeah, Christians (including me) are known to have flaws. But, not one of my Christian brothers ever enjoy the sight of blatant attack on civilians just to make a point.  Sure, our troops may have caused harm or even accidentally killed civilians in other countries, but we don't target civilians just to make a point. 

From this interview, I have tough time believing that a moderate muslim is not thinking bad thoughts towards us while smiling and enjoying the western life style.  There are other personal experience that has led me to think this way.  Am I a bigot or prejudice?  No, just aware of the situation.

Funny thing perspective. I just remember all the calls and messages from the victims to their loved ones. Love. All the calls were about love, and saying goodbye.  

casooner - so you're basing your opinion that all "moderate muslims" must think this way because you saw an interview?  Come on.

But, not one of my Christian brothers ever enjoy the sight of blatant attack on civilians just to make a point

"Shock and awe."