About Hardliner4freedom


Gender:
male
Member Since:
July 14, 2006
Last Signed In:
March 15, 2008
Profile Views:
26807
Blog Views:
13713
View Profile
Send a Message
Send To A Friend
Sign Guestbook
Add as a Friend

Previous Posts
Gay Marriage Based On Religious Freedom Must Be Consistent
A "Christian Nation" -- Impossible Even By Religious Right's Criteria
The Only Gay Marriage Argument You'll Ever Need
My Thoughts on the In God We Trust Scare
A Spooky (And True) Story of Precognition
World's 3rd Richest Man Says Taxes on the Rich Are Too Low
New Right's War on the Constitution: The Under-Reported Truth
Religious Right Group's Belief in Religious Freedom Does Not Extend to Others
Take The Time To Fight Phishing
Creationist Betrays True Motives (Again)
Archives
July 06
August 06
September 06
October 06
November 06
December 06
January 07
February 07
March 07
April 07
May 07
June 07
July 07
August 07
September 07
October 07
November 07
December 07
January 08
February 08
March 08
April 08
May 08
June 08
July 08
August 08
September 08
October 08
November 08
December 08
January 09
Onward Bound

News, views, and professional iconoclasm from the green side of libertarianism.

About the graphic:  Created by Yours Truly using Ray Dream Studio.

-

Take The Time To Fight Phishing

 

Subscribe!
RSS 2.0 feed RSS 2.0
Add to My Yahoo
Add to My Google
Add to Bloglines
Add to My AOL

Share!


Hardliner4freedom - > Starship Sigma +5 -> A "Christian Nation" -- Impossible Even By Religious Right's Criteria
A "Christian Nation" -- Impossible Even By Religious Right's Criteria

Many Religious Right spokespersons attempt to argue that the First Amendment's prohibition of the establishment of religion was merely intended to prevent the establishment of one particular denomination of Christianity, and to keep the government out of the affairs of the church -- all while arguing that the Founding Fathers intended Christianity itself to be the official, legally recognized (and imposed) religion of the United States.

Dr. Thomas Lee Abshier, a former candidate for United States Senate, writes the following, which despite some internal contradictions and conflicting messages, both illustrates a common Religious Right view and acknowledges some problems with it.  He begins:

"The Founders intended that America be a Christian Nation, and they intended that we legislate social behavior using the standards of Biblical principle.  But, they erected a Constitutional wall against Congress establishing a single denomination as a State religion."

But with due caution, observes:

"But, the multiple writers, contexts, and eras make it easy to derive many possible interpretations from the Bible.  As a result, many denominations have arisen to support a particular perspective about Biblical truth.  The ambiguity about the perfect Christian doctrine is one important reason why a particular interpretation of scripture, or system or interpretation (denominational creed) should not be given a place of legally established superiority."

Great point.  He observes further,

"The Founders saw the tendency of the human heart to engage in control and domination in the name of God.  ...  This prohibition was not meant to prevent any and all religious expression in government, but rather to prevent a single creed or denomination of Christianity from using the power of the State to enforce compliance to a single denominational doctrine."

At the rate the good doctor is going, I won't need to write this article.  He's making my opening argument as well as I can.  However, there are more points to address, so let us go to work dissecting this unusually thoughtful piece.

First things first.  Let's admit it.  Nearly 100 percent of the Religious Right's drive for power is to legislate private behavior.  The Gospel is strangely absent from their platform.  So, let's see what it takes to "legislate social behavior using the standards of Biblical principle."

To legislate social behavior using Biblical principles, the government must render a theological decision on Biblical teachings.  But as the doctor observes, different denominations arrive at different interpretations of Scripture.  He correctly says that one particular interpretation shouldn't enjoy legally established superiority. 

Therefore, if the government enacted legislation based on Biblical principles, the government must first have arrived at a particular interpretation -- an interpretation with which some Christian denominations are likely to differ.

For example, some Christians rightly observe that there is nothing wrong with nudity, and that it is in no way contrary to Biblical teaching.  Yet the efforts to censor depictions of, or the practice of, nudity almost always come from people who claim to want laws to reflect "Biblical principles."  By trying to censor or otherwise criminalize nudity, they are trying to enact a particular interpretation of Scripture into law -- an interpretation with which many Christians disagree.

Such legislative acts run afoul of what even the Religious Right claims about church/state separation.

Next, in deciding whether or not to enact a Bible-based law, government must render a theological decision regarding whether or not it should be punishable.  Prostitution was frowned upon under Mosaic Law, but was not criminal in itself.  Yet you can bet that almost everyone who wants Bible-based laws would criminalize prostitution, or insist that it remain criminalized.

But that's yet another theological decision that the government has rendered, with which some Christian denominations might disagree.  By legislating morality, government is usurping the freedom of churches to interpret Scripture on their own and to live according to the findings of their faith.

The priority and emphasis that such a Biblical government would give to each Biblical principle is yet another theological rendering that some Christian denominations would dispute.  Scripture teaches that the love of money is a great source of evil -- yet not only are Religious Right groups and representatives completely neglecting to advocate greed laws, but many of them actively resist the making of laws that would prohibit amassing ridiculous amounts of wealth or require than excess wealth be given to the poor.  That's one Bible-based law that would spark outrage among over 90 percent of the Religious Right!

Moreover, by advocating the legislation of Biblical morality, they are immediately disregarding the beliefs of Christians who believe that legalism went out with the New Covenant.

One can make a strong case that Jesus' two commandments, to love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself, supercede the legalistic details of Old Testament law.  Other New Testament passages certainly reflect this: "The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."  Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10) and "If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right." (James 2:8).

To many Christians, legalism and the bindings of Mosaic Law are things of the past, as Ephesians 2:13-17 and Colossians 2:13-15 suggest.

So, when Religious Right groups advocating legislating specific religious moralities, they are also stepping on the toes of Christians who adhere to the above two paragraphs, disregarding the rights of these Christians while giving the Religious Right's doctrinal beliefs a preferred, supreme position in law.

Finally, there is one more theological matter that the Religious Right isn't even contemplating prior to acting -- whether it's Scriptural to legislate religious laws outside the walls of the church in the first place.  By doing so, they are deciding that enacting such laws is Biblically sound -- when many Christian denominations also disagree with that.

1 Corinthians 5:11-13 says that God will judge those outside the church.  Any reproof and correction based on Christian doctrine is to take place within the body of Christ, not the world at large.  Even in the frequently quoted passage Romans 1:18-32, there is no command or suggestion that believers try to impose their belief on them.  Indeed, God did exactly the opposite -- He let them go on their way, giving them over to the kind of life they wanted.

And, needless to say, the strife and tensions that always arise between religious (and secular) sects when one religious belief system is imposed by law, violates another New Testament teaching: to live in peace with the people around you.  The early church went out into a pagan world -- yet believers were instructed to live peaceably with them -- not make political trouble for them (Romans 12:18, 1 Peter 3:8-9, 1 Timothy 2:1-4, Titus 3:1-7, Hebrews 12:14).

In other words, the inevitable result of trying to establish religious law via the State is to egregiously violate of New Testament teachings about living peacefully with those around you.

So, in light of all this, what do we make of the Religious RIght's claim that the First Amendment's purpose was merely to prevent the establishment of one particular denomination or its precepts into law, and to keep the government out of the affairs of the church?

We end up discovering that the Religious Right's political agenda is unconstitutional even by their own claims.  When government tries to enact a Biblical law, it renders a theological conclusion that -- by necessity -- codifies one doctrinal view into law over and above the tenets of Christians that might disagree.  And by the act itself of so legisating, it is implicitly favoring the theological view that religious laws are appropriate for legislation -- to the disrespect of Christians who do not.

Therefore, even by the Religious Right's definition, the only possible Constitutional route is the secular view of government and lawmaking.

.

Posted in these Groups:
Topics:
posted by Hardliner4freedom on Tuesday, October 9, 2007 at 08:09 PM
Report a Violation
Viewed 120 times
21 comments from 11 users

1

posted by Hardliner4freedom on Oct 9, 2007 at 08:10 PM

And another...

Have fun, folks!

posted by Wayfarer on Oct 9, 2007 at 08:56 PM
Agreed that the "Religious Right" doesn't represent all Christians.  But all Christian citizians are a part of this country and have a say in it's government.  That's something that the secularist fundementalist don't agree on. 
posted by randomfactor on Oct 9, 2007 at 08:59 PM
Nonsense, Wayfarer.  All Christian citizens have a voice in the government.  But that voice, no matter how large, has no right to override the civil rights of even one American (or non-citizen immigrant for that matter.)  The courts used to understand that--until those damned Republican activist judges started getting appointed.
posted by TomW on Oct 9, 2007 at 09:05 PM
I'm going to save a copy of this for the future.  It's pretty much the definitive source.
posted by Hardliner4freedom on Oct 9, 2007 at 09:10 PM
Everyone, regardless of religion or lack of it, has equal say in our government, and everyone, regardless of religion of lack thereof, is prohibited from governing in ways that violate the law of the land, the Constitution.
posted by Hardliner4freedom on Oct 9, 2007 at 09:21 PM
Ppreciate that, Tom.  It was structured with that end in mind.
posted by Wayfarer on Oct 9, 2007 at 09:42 PM

Is it nonsense Random?   You yourself  have a history of attacking people for expressing their religion on this site.

posted by RoyTullis on Oct 9, 2007 at 09:53 PM
Good one H4f.
posted by randomfactor on Oct 9, 2007 at 09:57 PM

If you cannot tell the difference between countering someone's statements and "attacking people," Wayfarer, you obviously have nothing to teach about the behavior of nonexistent "secularist fundamentalists."

.

When someone gets too obvious (in my opinion) about proselytizing I point out the rather obvious fact that theirs is not the only valid viewpoint--that, in fact, it's perfectly reasonable to call belief in an invisible sky father "nonsense."  I have stated numerous times that my posts are at least partially aimed at those people, especially young people, who are afraid to say out loud "but that Bible verse/religious restriction/analogy doesn't make *SENSE*!"  The world is changing to one in which those voices can no longer be shouted down.

.

What you (and Chad Vegas) appear to want is a society where religious beliefs no matter how anti-social cannot be challenged, where any opposing viewpoint must be seen as an "attack."   Both Hardliner and I agreed that Christians, even those like Ted Haggard, have the same right to participate in government that we do.  And they have the same obligation to keep their hands off other peoples' civil rights.  If you are correct, that puts us outside the (nonexistent) group of "secularist fundamentalists."  I can accept not belonging to a group which does not exist...

posted by Wayfarer on Oct 10, 2007 at 12:17 AM

Excuse me if you have no creditability; by your own actions Random, which include spamming and trying to get Christians banned from posting their beliefs.  You have demonstrated that you have little regard for others civil rights.

posted by creepycat on Oct 10, 2007 at 07:07 AM

You seem to have it in for religion. Religious influences are the foundation of civilization. Our Declaration of Independence, Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" certainly carry arguments based on biblical principle. What would you have replace all religious influences? Pure logic? The scientific method? Perhaps. But it would not reinforce the individual sense of right and wrong as does religious conviction.

True, one religion can be another's blasphemy. This is why we have a Constitution with checks and balances. 

posted by Hardliner4freedom on Oct 10, 2007 at 07:18 AM
Wayfarer, Huh?  Either your history here is very brief, or your paranoia is extremely deep.
posted by Hardliner4freedom on Oct 10, 2007 at 07:19 AM

Where do you get that idea, Creepycat?

"This is why we have a Constitution with checks and balances."

True, that's exactly my point.

Why do you resent my making a point that you agree with?

posted by robbwillis on Oct 10, 2007 at 08:18 AM

You yourself have a history of attacking people...  

...which include spamming...

 

 

Once again, buffojournerfarer7 breaks the hypocritical guage.

posted by randomfactor on Oct 10, 2007 at 08:27 AM
Remember, Hardliner, that "Wayfarer" is a synonym for "Sojourner."  (I don't think it's the same spammer--the spelling wouldn't have improved that much overnight.)
posted by ChicoEsquela on Oct 10, 2007 at 08:33 AM
and randomfactor is a synonym for "knee jerk liberal lock step pile on any form of non-secular un"progressive" postings on BBs"
posted by mattloch on Oct 10, 2007 at 08:50 AM
Chico made a funny! A dur hur hur! 
posted by ChicoEsquela on Oct 10, 2007 at 08:55 AM

and I didn't even "plan" on it ! <haha>

self portrait at the little restaurant accross from your office BTW?

posted by NancyII on Oct 10, 2007 at 09:10 AM
Where on EARTH do you guys find all these avatars and stuff?  When I go looking they always want me to pay for them.
posted by johnburnssucks on Oct 10, 2007 at 10:19 AM

Remember, Hardliner, that "Wayfarer" is a synonym for "Sojourner."  (I don't think it's the same spammer--the spelling wouldn't have improved that much overnight.) 

Buffoo may have hired a surrogate poster. You never know.

posted by TomW on Oct 10, 2007 at 10:28 AM
Nancy, I make most of mine in photoshop, but you can just search for Free Gifs: http://www.google.com/searc...
1

  (You need to be signed in to leave a comment)

BAKERSFIELD.COM HOT TOPICS:

Advertisement