What's the big deal? We only want to put "In God We Trust" plaques on our public buildings. If you don't believe, you don't have to look at them.

What's the big deal? We only want to put "In God We Trust" plaques in our public schools. If you don't believe, you don't have to look at them.

What's the big deal? We only want to put "In God We Trust" plaques in our public .........

What's the big deal? We only want to put "In God We Trust" plaques in our .........

What's the big deal? We only want to put .........

If you don't like what we're doing, why don't you people go back where you came from?

As a Christian, I would not want the saying ," In the Devil We Trust" on a wall in the Schools or any Government Building. This is opening up something that will slap us all in the face. Fact is their is a reason for the separation of Church and State. It closes the door to offend those who are not Christian or are Christians who have a different belief as these so called Christians. Yes we are taught as Christians not to be ashamed of our faith, but also we are taught that we only hold OTHER Christians accountable, we don't chastise them, nor do we force others to come to the Lord. All this is doing is causing others to resent Christians, and causing Christians  that understand the meaning of Separation of Church and State to be thought of as hypocrites. Taking prayer out of school should not be a hot topic issue either with Christians. If you are a true Christian you know that their is such a thing as a PERSONAL relationship with God. The Pledge of Allegiance is an arrogant attempt by our government to do the same thing the Nazi's did during Hitlers rule, scare us into showing others that we are supporters of the fact our country is the only country that is upstanding and politically correct in all we do, and if we don't say those word's 'One Nation Under God" then we are not true Americans. I understand our country was Secondly founded under Christian fundamentals, but do the American Indians THE FIRST AMERICANS have any rights to post their beliefs on our schools walls? My point is the saying, and that is just what it is the saying, " In God we trust" is not true to all, so if it is not a fact( Don't schools rely on facts to teach our children) why are we forcing it on others. I would not want my children to be forced into anything they don't believe to be true, even if it is Christianity. Our school walls, should this saying be put up, should also say, " All Hail the Devil" , " The Holocaust did not happen" , " KKK is the only way" and etc. Equal rights, and that is what needs to happen. Pray at church, at home , on the streets, at church groups, our where we are welcomed, lets not inject our beliefs onto others. Truth be told, the bible says , Orphans, Jews, and Widows are God's protected people, where are there plaques in Government Buildings. When I want to see in God We Trust I will be sure to go to church. or look on my wall, where it belongs.

Well said and exactly on target, from a Christian as well as a secular perspective.

Thanks to the many believers here who have really exhibited the essence of the faith.

"Children that don't know about the Ten Commandments don't know right from wrong. "

Why do you say that?

Mmmm, okay, I think I see what you're saying. 

But I'll wait for Possummomma to chime in with her own child-rearing skills -- raising them without religious upbringing -- and I'll certify that they are fine kids indeed, because I have met them myself.

I think I understand what you're saying.  It just isn't quite accurate.  :-)

Thanks, Hardliner. :)

Teaching a child right from wrong begins at birth.  And, sure there are some kids who don't learn the rules of life until school...but, I've yet to see anyone prove that those kids are atheists.  In fact, I would go so far as to say that the majority of kids who walk into school on their way to becoming little hell-raisers are, statistically, more likely to come from a theist/believer home than not. 

I just don't buy that the 10 Commandments teach kids right and wrong.  How many parents do you meet who, when their infant is a couple of months old, sit them down and say, "See Bobby...these are the 10 Commandments...unless you know these, you're toast!"?  No...kids learn through modeling and exposure.  If the parents are rude, obnoxious, violent, malcontents, then their children will reflect that.  If the child is beaten on a daily basis, then the child will be a hitter.  If, however, your child learns patience and love, then they'll model patience and love.  If you teach your children to respect other people, they will.  If you treat those around you with genuine concern and interest, the world will be their oyster.  I can't tell you how many times I've seen parents, fresh from church, drag their family into a restaurant only to yell, scream, and annoy the wait staff (and that's just the parents!).  The kids see this.  The kids have been stuck in a church for an hour and their parents are too dis-associated to realize that small children aren't all that great at sitting still for two-to-three hours.  Then, you usually see the parent flustered, but continuing to chat with the adults around them.  Hello!? 

Schools don't teach morals and ethics.  Parents do.  The only people who would need the 10 Commandments on the wall are the poorly behaved Christian kids who believe in the deity that commanded his, mostly, silly rules.  Only the Christian child would fear the punishment for breaking those rules. The atheist kids don't care what a deity says, they're usually pretty tuned in to the reality of the world around them and behave the way their parents taught them to (bad or good). 

Could you provide us with a picture of your ass (and, it better be a donkey, buddy!)?? ;)  I'm afraid I cannot judge whether your ass is covetable until I have seen the evidence for myself.

;)

To be fair, I've been impressed by the number of Christians who are really walking the walk as far as this proposal goes.

I'm not saying that you must oppose this proposal to be truly "walking the walk," but I've been encouraged by the number of Christian posters who seem to "get it."

Like the Christian commenter Lovethyneighbor.

I'm going with Possum on this one.  Children begin to learn from their parents the day the are born and they continue to do so as they grow up.  As they grow they begin to learn what they can touch and what they can't.  If the parents are good ones, children will learn that lying is wrong, stealing is wrong, hurting someone is wrong, and on down down the line.  The ten commandments are a good set of guidelines for anyone and even for the non believers there are six that just plain make good sense.

I do not, however, expect a school to teach children those basic rules.  By the time they get to school age they should have some of those basics down or at least have an understanding of them.  Posting them in school isn't going to make them better children....that's a job for the parents.

posted by ChicoEsquela on Oct 6, 2007 at 09:14 PM 
Or we could call them the "Ten Suggestions" as Bill Clinton did.

http://bloggernista.com/200...

1. You shall have no other Gods but me.
2. You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
3. You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
4. You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.

Loadtoad..that's why I said there are six that should be good guidelines for EVERYONE including non believers.

I have errands to run...why am I still sitting here???  Where did you guys say that 12 step for bloggers meets?

How about the golden rule?

But the issue is not posting moral guides..but rather a motto to promote religion. If we were going to post morals..some simple basics would be nice. Treat others as you want to be treated.

I thought the topic was meant to reflect the idea of Separation of Church and State. How it has turned. From the walls of our schools to the bashing of certain beliefs. But the the one shared emotion is where children learn. My children learn from me, and I believe that my God is a loving God that would never want me to attack others belief as I said before, my God clearly states that I am not to judge anyone, but just as a friend would hold another accountable I hold my child accountable for their actions. So what if I have the 10 Commandments on my wall? Does this make me a fear monger? Am I teaching my children to hate? Do I insist that those who do not have the same beliefs as me (including my oldest child) are going to burn in Hell? The answer is no. Again it is a personal relationship with God, or any God, or even no God. Do I pray for those who don't believe? Yes! Do I call all non-believers on the phone or knock on their doors begging them to come to God? No! Do some Christians do the opposite of me? Yes! Do those who don't believe bash my beliefs, Yes, but not all. So instead of this being a blog on Christian bashing we should focus on our children, our schools, and again the separation of them. I agree that some Parents teach that there is something to fear in God, I chose to believe the opposite, what greater love could of ever be given then his, but that is how I feel. Again, I don't think my God would want me to offend your God or any person. I agree also that children do learn from home, but, yes but school is instrumental in their behavior skills. If my child feels unsafe at home he or she should seek help from the school, but no poster in my home or at school is going to rectify a child's problem. I don't post the 10 Commandments to scare, but to remind me everyday how I should live my life, and I don't live it by the poster, I just use it as an outline. But it is my belief that they were commanded by God, and not everyone shares those beliefs, so why are we forcing them on one another? We teach Health (sex ed when I was younger) in our public schools and they give us the option to let our children go or not go, why are these rights not given when it comes to God. God should not be a factor in school, if you want it to be send them to a Private Christian school, and in my own experience not all Private Christian schools teach out of care but out of fear. How sad we live in a country that freedom of speech is abused? sfinboston52 has a point that some see this a motto to promote religion, and although some even hate the Golden rule, relating it with God, it is a ,"simple basic" . How sad I feel to see children that are made to learn their morals at school, we all know who those children are, but a poster is not a voice, not a hand , not a hug and not a protector of children who are abused. I apologize my comments are so long, I just want it to be understood not all Christians are the same, I don't even know if some of my Christian friends would be angry that I have these beliefs, but I know my feelings are based on life experiences. My Christian mother once said, " NOT ALL NON-CHRISTIANS ARE GOING TO HELL, AND NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ARE GOING TO HEAVEN". Not a commandment from God but a mother teaching morals to her children, the way it should be, and if it can't be done that way, that is where the school and in cases of abuse the state comes in, not to push God on a child, but to help heal.

Okay one quick note: How is it that my son was told he could not have a Mohawk at school, yet at church, he was complimented on it often. After cutting it off, he said to me nothing about God, but asked me why the school thought it was so wrong for him to have it. Who's pushing their beliefs on others? If the church had told me he was not to have a Mohawk, then I would of left, unfortunately inter district transfers are harder to get. 

I am asking that we stop the Christian bashing and focus on the real issues. NO POSTERS IN SCHOOLS TELLING MY CHILD OR YOURS ANYTHING THAT IS NOT UNIVERSALLY AGREED ON.,UNIVERSAL WOULD BE 2 PLUS 2 IS 4!!!!!

lovetheyneighbor....well said.

I really also dont understand how a school can dicate hair cuts or what style is or isnt appropriate?

I again support putting our bill of rights, declaration of independence and consitution (Federal & state), up in every single class and school room...large and easy to read. Also, w/ something on Republics & Demcracy and our responability to vote.

If the people feel the need to post something in classrooms; I think most could agree that the California Penal Code is a good non-denominational/ non-religious basis for proper behavior.  Lets post that in the classrooms.  That thing has more rules than the bible, and the rules are pretty specific.  And there is no doubt as to the origin of the Penal Code.

sfinboston52 thank you. The Bill Of Rights is not a moral issue nor is the Declaration of Independence, and as a child this was part of the schools curriculum, so was spelling and grammar but I did not take to well to it so excuse the mistakes, so they differ from values, and are what our country  was secondly founded (again there were Native Americans here first) on and I think that they still should be taught in our schools. And again, if I did not want a school to teach my child something I have a right to call the school switch a class or explain my beliefs to my children, and if they disagree I guess I would be proud, proud that I have taught my children to be free thinkers and to never be ashamed of who they are, as long as they are not causing anyone any harm. I had one more thing to say, our schools teach the THEORY OF EVOLUTION and THE BIG BANG THEORY, notice the name theory and these theory's should be taught, my children have the right also to learn others beliefs, and decipher what they believe, not have me push it down their throat. History is just that history, many a war has been fought over religion and our kids are taught this, but they are not told who was right and who was wrong, just the facts. And I am okay with that too. How many Christians and non Christians have I made angry? I don't care, and if a Christian cares, feel free to pray for me AT HOME, and if a non-christian is angry well then express it, I believe in our Constitutional right to free speech.

we are all born into sin and the ONLY thing that will bring the void your missing  into your life and cleanse you is Yahshua (JesusChrist) 

so then it becomes a new walk and you learn all over again thru "HIS"eyes not your own.  It is spiritual not of the flesh... God is a spirit and we need to know him and the only way is in his presence get alone with him long prayer talks, ask and you shall receive, so talk to him about ALL things....this will be a renewing of your mind...and you will then understand so many things for the carnality(flesh) mind does not understand for it is too prideful and stubborn.

study thyself approved unto God, not man....

Nonsense.  I wasn't born in sin and don't need an imaginary sky buddy.  YMMV.

.

Lovethy, sure:  both evolution and the big bang fall under both types of theory.  "Intelligent Design Creationism" and Genesis don't--they fall only under the everyday version of the term, not the scientific one. 

.

So you teach the scientific theories in science class:  evolution and the big bang.  There are scales you weigh meat on and scales you sing.  Which should be taught in music class?  "Meter" applies equally well  to electronic instruments, measurements of length, and poetry.  Teach each in the appropriate class. 

"and you will then understand so many things for the carnality(flesh) mind does not understand for it is too prideful and stubborn."

Interpret that statement broadly enough, and it makes a lot of sense.  The unbecoming guise of religion that has chosen to politicize itself is characterized prominently by carnality, pride, and stubbornness.

And deafness.  Did I mention deafness?  Is there a copy editor in the house?  :-)

"Lovethy, sure:  both evolution and the big bang fall under both types of theory.  "Intelligent Design Creationism" and Genesis don't--they fall only under the everyday version of the term, not the scientific one. "

Again I am not telling anyone what belongs where, I was actually asking a real question, and thought it was something worth knowing, not being mocked about. Good way to use your obvious intelligence to attack someone. I will keep that in mind next time I take the time to explain that not all Christians are doorknockers who shove their beliefs down others throats, that sometimes people who have a gift use it to be cruel, and demeaning to others.

Lovethyneighbor, you seem to be an exceptionally bad judge of when someone is attacking you or religion in general.  I was actually answering your real question. 

.

Perhaps you feel I should be reverent and deferential to an opposing opinion simply *BECAUSE* it's a religious one?  With all due respect, you are mistaken about that. I have not confused you with doorknockers precisely because you asked that question and because you took the trouble to educate yourself on the differences between scientific and everyday "theories."  The general public has a wretched concept of what scientific theories are, and as you guessed it's because most schools do a wretched job of teaching science.  (Venturing into personal opinion, I feel *THAT* is because they're always fighting a defensive battle against people who want to push mythology into biology courses.)

.

One of the most important things which differentiate a scientific theory from a nonscientific one is that the scientific one can be proven false by actual experimentation.  Now, lots of scientists get sloppy in everyday speech, but when you pin them down they'll admit that's the key difference.  If you can't prove it wrong by *ANY* conceivable experiment, it's not science.

I did not feel you were attacking me for being a Christian, my opinion is just that, opinion, and as far as being a bad judge in attacking my religion, I don't feel it can be attacked nor the need to defend it.

"Again I am not telling anyone what belongs where, I was actually asking a real question, and thought it was something worth knowing, not being mocked about."

I sensed sarcasm in your reply, sarcasm, that is all, and you explained it to me, I am not a bad judge to when someone is attacking me, words written  just make it hard to grasp the tone someone sets when speaking, and you clearly in your last post you made it clear that was not what you were doing, but you do assume ,just as I assumed you were mocking me that I think that I am a Christian and you should treat or speak to me any different, or change your views, if you did that , and you did not, you would be doing yourself a disservice, speak what you want to speak, and if again I am incorrect let me know, don't base it on the fact I am a Christian, me asking unrelated Christian questions deserve an unchristian response, Not that I know your Christian beliefs nor your relationship with a God of your choice, but if you were not a Christian I would not ask a Christian question, I don't force my beliefs on anyone, and am very open to hearing what everyone has to say. I do pray for some, but does that make me pushy? Now that was a question about religion and in context to if it offends others, I have always wanted to know, although I won't stop the praying, I just would never grab you shake you and scream , " YOU NEED JESUS !!LETS PRAY." I will take your word you were not mocking me, move on and deal with the real issue in the original post, not a who's putting me down. My judgment on being mocked stems from other things, being heart felt is who I am, and when I feel attacked, I don't attack back just speak my mind. Like before I have seen many well educated people who chose to put people down, using the word ignorant, and think I don't know what sarcasm is. Apparently I don't all the time, and am willing to admit it. Thank you for the clarification.

I was raised in a house with no talking about God, ever, and I had a pleasant childhood in the worlds eyes; I had everything I needed. I had no rules, no responsibility, I was spoiled rotten with posessions and it really made my attitude spoiled rotten. I got worse when I got older, and I absolutely loathed authority. I wouldn't let anyone take charge, even though I was totally messed up and a total jerk to everyone around me. I never understood what the 10 commandments really meant, I never understood that having authority and having rules really makes me happier, because to me, there's nothing worse than having too many options. It messes with the mind.

I know before I got saved, words like "God" and "Jesus" were like poision to my ears, when I heard Christian, the hairs on the back of my neck would rise. I had such a bad opinion of Christians because of all the people doing hateful things and claiming it is from God, I was a fan of Korn back "in the day", and when "head" left Korn because he got saved, I was totally offended! How could you! I think I was angry at Jesus! I had a very bad image of God. I thought of Him as some punishing God who enjoyed watching people suffer. I saw Him pointing His finger at me, laughing at my pain, enjoying HImself. But obviously, that has changed. Whatever suffering I endure today is my doing. Yeah there's always reasons for me to be unhappy, I could let the world bring me down, and trust me, that is very easy for me to do. I know God's wrath, but I also know God's love and His peace. The pain of 30 years of pain and heartache have been lifted, and all He asks is that I love Him first, above all things in this world.

I've been unemployed for nearly a year, and because of me, my fears, I've always been afraid of the job searching process. (see: childhood), and so I'd look in the paper, and not see anything that was catching my eye. I'm in a class, of sorts, at Church, and in my journal I had written down, "asking" on paper, ok God, what do I do to get a job? That was august 24th. About a week later, I'm sitting in Church, sitting next to someone I normally don't sit next to, she's a friend of mine, and she is a Nurse Practitioner. She had brought a guy with her she met through her friend, she introduced me, and she says to me that he has ALS and he needs someone to come to his house and take care of him. Cooking, cleaning, laundry, grocery shopping, but no medical (my moms a nurse but i'm really not!) So i immediately say yes, and I know that I know that this is from God for soo many reasons, no job application, no interview, none of that drama. And he lives like 2 miles down from me, he has a 9 year old son who is the cutest thing ever, and its just an amazing job because I'm learning so much, especially about love. I have been the caretaker in my home but it was for a different reason, out of "obligation", not love, and I'm doing this from the heart and its so rewarding. So, trusting God, is not scary. I know He knows me and what is good for me and what is bad for me, and for me, I wouldn't have it any other way. But it's something that doesn't happen overnight, its been a long road but so worth it.

I agree with you -- and hey, don't feel bad about posting on the wrong thread.  Considering the point that you made, I think you're on the correct thread.

It's not the motto that bothers me, as my own op-ed explains.  It's the underlying intent. 

I'm not in the least bit interested in getting God off our money or out of the Pledge of Allegiance.  I'm not even out to change the national motto.

It's just that those of us who "know what they're up to" tend to react (overreact?) -- and in my piece, I even acknowledge that problem when these issues come up.  Trouble is, the fact that some people get aggravated when we talk about "what they're up to," only inspires me to talk about it all the more.

It's an issue for the people who initiate these cases -- and it's an issue to those of us who "know what they're up to."

To the 95% in between, they look at us and wonder what our problem is.

I can understand that.