Clever of them to have figured it out without any satellite data or computer modeling.

We *ARE* living in an interglacial period.  One of the nicest in history.  We screwed it up.  It remains to be seen whether the next ice age will be a problem for us, or for whatever species takes over from us.

Nancy thanks but Random his 4 brothers and the VW will always be for warming, 4 seasons have been promised till this earth is seen fleeing away. Just like the Rainbow this earth will not be destroyed by water again.

Ron.

Well..hats ARE healthy you know.  Since a large share of our body heat is lost through the head a hat should be healthy.  Of course, as Murphy noted, most hot air around here is lost thorough the mouth,

(sorry guys, I just couldn't resist it..I would have hated myself in the morning if I'd passed that one up.)

Anglo..you're right..it doesn't surprise me.

Ki6..it's my fault this time.  I had that link sent to me and thought it was worth sharing.  Instead of having this discussion "again", I think it's more like "still."  

Besides..what would we be doing on here if not arguing?   Oooopsss..I mean *discussing*.  ;-)

Raising the land locally.  And in the movie "Waterworld," Mt. Everest supposedly stuck out a few hundred feet.

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But remember, enough water to raise sea level *ANYWHERE* to cover a mountain (say, Ararat) would raise the water level *EVERYWHERE* by that amount, unless the earth were almost perfectly flat, and Ararat about the size of those dirt mounds kids play "king of the hill" on.

Yes, it's higher there by about eight inches (partly because of the earth's rotation.)  The locks are there to raise ships over the *LAND*, not to a higher ocean.

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The Biblical flood is a retelling of a local disaster that happened to someone *ELSE*.  Most of the Bible is a retelling of existing legends.

Saw yours, Tom, and appreciated the effort.  We were a little different on the amount, but hey, this is the Internet, where six inches becomes eight inches, and eight inches becomes ten. ;)  The number I saw was 20 cm.  The tides raise the local water level *MUCH* more than that in many places.

mattloch, have you ever heard of SharKtooth Hill? The evolution of this planet did not start yesterday. I doubt that it will end any time soon, despite the hysteria.

http://members.aol.com/Wauc...

Irv, I, too, have faith that the evolution of the planet will continue.  It continued after the Permian extinction, when 90 percent of the life on earth disappeared.  That, too, may well have been global warming.

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The question is whether the species who follow us will do better than we did. 

If you walk the riverbed at Beach Park you can still pick up seashells in the sand.  It feels like an anomoly here on the dry valley floor.

Since this whole area was under water at one point, and the settlers came here to discover it was a swamp not an ocean, then wouldn't one assume that the drying process started long before man started draining it for agriculture? 

Nor did I.  Of course it could happen again.  It could happen if the levees up north are breached--which has *EVERYTHING* to do with man.

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Perhaps I misinterpreted your comment about evolution and "the hysteria."  Evolution will, in fact, proceed.  There are no guarantees whether we'll like the outcome--but that's because we're on our own here.  Any solution to the problems caused by global warming will come from us.

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Opposition to measures taken against global warming boil down to one rationale:  "Wait!  We haven't squeezed the last drop of profit out yet!"

If the levees up north are breached is there any reason to believe that the flooding would reach this area?  It didn't before they were built.  It's my understanding they were built to protect Sacramento and the Delta area, not to block it from the southern part of the state.

Maybe I'm confused as to the reference to the levees.  It wouldn't be the first time I got confused as to where the topic was going.  LOL.

The report said that the US Environmental Protection Agency estimated that on certain days nearly 25% of pollution in the skies above Los Angeles could be traced to China.

Mr Li dismissed the claims and said further study was required.

"Those reports saying 25% of pollution in Los Angles comes from China are not objective and are irresponsible and the conclusion is also doubtful," he said.

Ever hear of Volcanic Winter? Here is a link about just one such event. One good burp from a major volcano and you can put the global warming hype to bed.

http://www.bradshawfoundati...

Barring cataclysmic cosmic events, the earth isn't going away anytime soon, but man may. In archaleogical terms, we've only been here a couple of minutes.

Rises and falls in temperatures have many natural causes. A lot of it is due to the earths's changing orbits. But it's not just the media who proclaims that man has contributed to acceleration of current global warming. According to many scientists, man's fingerprints are all over the sudden surge. Some say the troposhere has been lifted due to our activiies. This is not a local problem. Greenhouse gasses are having an effect.  

The EPA isn't run by a bunch of whacky leftists, and they suggest we slow down on emmisions. There is disagreement on the issue from legitimate sources on both sides. We need to keep looking at the science, and not rely on self described experts like Gore, OR Rush Limbaugh. At least Gore has done the heavy work to come up with an opinion.

NASA's stance is that they say a majority of scientists do believe that man is accelerating global warming. And there is no doubt that it would have an adverse effect on humans that rise well above just feeling a little hotter. It could cause drought, disease, crop failures, etc.

There are many reasons besides global warming to stop spewing junk in the air not the least of which is protecting ourselves from the sun itself.

The politicizing needs to stop, and climatologists need to be heard. Suddenly this administration is concerned about Polar Bears, even though this admin tried to muzzle top NASA climatologist James Hansen. I think I'll listen to Hansen before I listen to Gore or Rush. If I want an expert on oxycontin addiction.....then I'll listen to Rush.

Meantime, we better take this seriously and not just fluff it off to a bunch of environmentalist hippies.

Irv, you don't have to go that far back.  There was probably a "volcanic winter" in the middle of the sixth century.  (And again, a smaller one in the 19th century).    Remember that volcanoes put out a lot of greenhouse gasses, though--probably a sharp drop in temperature temporarily, followed by an acceleration over the global warming tipping point.  It was likely volcanoes which triggered the Permian event. 

You are right, random, there have been many such events throughout the planet's history. As recently as the 90's when Pinatubo blew off in the Philippines climatologists recorded lower average temps over the next year.

>>>The question is whether the species who follow us will do better than we did. 

--->RF, I think I have to disagree with you.  I think the question we have to answer is are we causing global warming, or is it something outside our control that is happening inspite of us.  There's no question we're warming...  But are we really really having an impact on that. 

For example:  We have all of these EPA laws we have to follow when handling refrigerants, but if we released all of the refrigerants we had, the impact to the ozone layer would be less than one or two space shuttle launches.  How much of this stuff we're hearing is BS and how much of it is good scientific information?  I don't think that question can be answered yet.  I think it's still too early in our learning about the processes involved. 

We absolutely should continue to improve our energy system though and minimize our footprint here.  

Goat, the ozone hole is no longer expanding, and it happened when the world stopped using CFC refrigerants.  But I can't argue with your last line.

(On the other hand, the CFC's do their worst in colder temperatures, so maybe global warming *HELPED* us here a bit--ironically...)

Mattloch, according to the British Antarctic Survey, carbon dioxide amounts in the ice core samples are higher than they have been in 800,000 years.

That should make us nervous no matter what one thinks is causing it.

RF:  I can tell you the world has not stopped using CFC refrigerants.  We have stopped MAKING (and importing) CFC refrigerants, but they are still pretty widely used.  In addition to CFC's, we also still make HCFC's which are not as dangerous as CFC's, but still contain non-soluable chlorine, which is what makes CFC's so dangerous to the ozone.  They are scheduled to be phased out also, but we'll continue making them for another 30 years.

The idea the hole in the ozone layer isn't getting any bigger sounds perposterous to me.  1 chlorine molecule can destroy more than 100,000 ozone molecules, and lasts in the atmosphere for more than 100 years....  We only stopped making CFC's about 10-12 years ago (the actual date eludes me even though I just had to remember it for an EPA test I took a few weeks ago) So how exactly has the hole in the ozone layer stopped growing?

No, but the major user--the US--has drastically curtailed it.  Ozone levels have been all over the mark lately (due to global warming in some cases, and loss of a satellite monitoring the problem) but supposedly we'll see measurable reductions by 2025.  Controlling warming would presumably help the process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...

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The report I read has chlorine levels still rising slightly but expected to peak in 2010. 

Here's the link I couldn't find

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik....

>>>the US--has drastically curtailed it.

---->RF:  Please define drastically curtailed....  Although we do not do new installs using CFC refrigerants, there are still lots of old systems that use it and they are not yet being changed out on a large scale due to a shortage of CFC refrigerants.  You can still obtain them, and they are still in use. 

TomW:  Did you notice the numbers I quoted above?  1 cholorine molecule lasts over 100 years and destroys over 100,000 ozone molecules.  It's pretty tough to keep up with those numbers.  That's why we've created the legislation we have regarding CFC's, but I don't believe they've been in place long enough to make a difference.

Especially considering CFC's are not the largest threat to our ozone layer.  They just happen to be the one we're trying to control.

If this doesn't scare you about the administration's tactics...then.....you're Mocus.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id...

"Drastically curtailed" would be a sixty-percent decline in world production over the seven years ending in 1993.  Yes, China and other developing countries picked up some of the slack.    You mentioned shuttle launches, but I've read that the Soviet estimates of their effect were way overblown.  I could be wrong, I'm not a chemist.  Most of the HCL from shuttle exhaust gets washed down by rain before it reaches the upper atmosphere.

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Besides, we seem to be doing a very good job of limiting shuttle launches.   Two sad anniversaries in five days (three, counting Apollo 1).   Sob.