Gosh, this just keeps getting worse.

 Random, McCain is locked into public financing.  That's why he's so big on trying to get Obama to agree to it.  Unfortunately, McCain wants to leave the 527 loopholes he wrote into the law in place and Obama has said he'd sign on only if there is an agreement on everything including soft money and 527s.

I wondered about the 527's,that's the worst of the lot IMHO. 

Now we know why Bush won't fill the empty positions on the FEC board.

So tell me what lay did he violate? He did not take a loan with the assumption of public Finaning. The bank and McCain both say so.

Your saying he broke the law is thats an out right lie.

Howard Dean and Democrats are so scared of McCain the lies just keep coming/. Your trying to say he got that loan under the assumption that he would get puclic financing, that is untrue. The bank and McCain both have stated that that is not the case.

So tell me what lay did he violate?

Please explain why are you representing that as a fact when it is not?

 Oh and actually McCAin wants obama to take the Public Financing, is because Obama agreed to it and now hes going back on what he said. Hmm another time when obama is not keeping his word. Seems like a trend. Go Obama lol Its like you guys are trying to give McCAin the election

He broke the laws regarding public financing of campaigns that he helped write.  He accepted benefits of public financing and then overspent the limits.  His campaign obtained discounts on ballot placement predicated on his acceptance of spending limits.  Of course, Shrub's screwed up the staffing of the FEC, so there's nobody to rule on it--yet.

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McCain's a crook.  He claims to be a maverick but he's just another lying politician.  Who sleeps with lobbyists.

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Looks like he's having the same trouble the RNC in general is having--not enough suckers left to donate. 

No, Obama did *NOT* commit to it the way McBush did. 

Obama said it would be a good idea.  McBush said "I want the benefits but not the responsibilities."  Typical GOP freeloader.

Geez, you guys are scared of Obama...and you should be.

Gee, McBush hasn't released his tax returns either.  Wonder what *ELSE* he's hiding? 

And where *IS* Vicki Iseman, anyway?  What have they done with her?

 Rf, you said"

He broke the laws regarding public financing of campaigns that he helped write.  He accepted benefits of public financing and then overspent the limits.  His campaign obtained discounts on ballot placement predicated on his acceptance of spending limits

I high lighted the part that is not true, he did take a lone, but it had nothing to do with taking or accepting spending limits. THat doesnt even make sense I think you meant if he agreed to public financing, the points moot because niether of those senario's are true...

Tell me where do you get this info? Is it based on any facts? the answer is no lol

your are correct though that the FEC doesnt have the members to hold a qorum. Whos fault is that? hmmm

Also one more thing for you to chew on you think a bank would not front McCain cash, the premise of this is the only way you could believe the "accepting public finaning" clause that the Dems jsut made up.

In fact the Bank and McCAin both had said thats the case.

lol If the paperwork ever comes out it will make the Dems pretty desperate...which they are

Yes, he did. 

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He took a loan which would have triggered an ethics investigation (if the Senate had such things)--it was technically not *SECURED*  by his public financing--but it was predicated on that.  

But he did accept discounts on ballot entry based on public financing, and saved millions of dollars by doing so.   Now, if he wants to pay back those millions of dollars, I might be inclined to cut him some slack.

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Whose fault is the SEC snafu?  The Republicans in the Senate, who refuse to allow a vote on the individual nominees.  Who did you *THINK*?

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And why won't he release his tax returns?  Is he deducting trips taken with Vicki?

Obama said he has been and will continue to fund his campaign using a public financing program, 10, 20, 50 buck's at a time, from over a million members of the public.

Time to reup? (Obama did not endorse that campaign fundraising question).

I'll be sending more money to Obama shortly.  Most of  "Johm McCain"'s and Clinton's supporters are tapped out already.  Most of Obama's can give ten times as much as they already have.

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That's *REAL* public financing.

 Paperwork? Okay, try this: http://www.talkingpointsmem...&

Oh, and for some really good analysis:

First, McCain opted in to the public finance system for the primaries last year. It meant that his struggling campaign would get $5.8 million in public matching funds in March. Now that he's effectively the Republican nominee, he wants out, because the system entails a spending limit of $54 million through the end of August. He's almost spent that much already, according to the [Washington] Post.

So the McCain campaign sent the Federal Election Commission a letter (pdf) earlier this month[February] saying that he was opting out. But there's a problem. And FEC Chairman David Mason, a Republican, made it plain in his letter (pdf) yesterday: McCain can't tell the FEC that he's out of the system. He can only ask.

And the FEC, which normally has six commissioners, can't give him an answer until it has a quorum of four commissioners. It currently only has two. That's because the Senate has been deadlocked over four nominees; Democrats insist on a separate confirmation vote for vote-suppression guru Hans von Spakovsky, and Republicans insist on a single vote for all nominees.

The second issue has to do with McCain's tricky loan and whether the FEC will conclude that it locked him into the system. But for now, that's really ancillary to the first issue.

It is a serious issue. As the Post reports, "Knowingly violating the spending limit is a criminal offense that could put McCain at risk of stiff fines and up to five years in prison."

And for more:

If his campaign tanked, public funds would be there to bail him out. But if he emerged as the nominee, there'd be no need for public financing, since the contributions would come flowing.

It's an arrangement that no one has ever tried before. And it appears that McCain, who has built his reputation on campaign finance reform, was gaming the system. Or as a campaign finance expert who preferred to remain anonymous told me, referring to the prominent role that lobbyists have as advisers to his campaign, "This places McCain’s grandstanding on public financing in a new light. True reformers believe public financing is a way to replace the lobbyists’ influence, not a slush fund that the lobbyists use to pay off campaign debts."

Here's the back story. As of December, McCain was still enrolled in the public financing system, but had yet to actually receive any public matching funds. The Federal Election Commission had certified that the campaign would be receiving $5.8 million in public funds. But they wouldn't get that money for a couple more months. In need of even more cash beyond the $3 million loan he'd already secured from a Maryland bank (he'd taken out a life insurance policy as collateral), the McCain campaign was stuck in a bind. They needed more money, but the bank needed collateral.

The promise of those public matching funds (to the tune of more than $5 million) was the only collateral the campaign could offer. But there was a problem with that. Using that promised money as collateral would have bound McCain to the public financing system, according to FEC rules. And the McCain camp wanted to avoid that, because the system limits campaigns to spending $54 million in the primary (through August). That would mean McCain would get seriously outspent by the Democratic nominee through the summer. (McCain has separately pledged to enroll in the system for the general election; that would give him $85 million in taxpayer funds for use after the party convention through Election Day but bar other contributions.)

So here's what the McCain campaign did. They struck a deal with the bank that simultaneously allowed his campaign to secure public funds if necessary, but did not compel his campaign to stay in the public system if fundraising went well (i.e. if he won the nomination). As McCain's lawyer told the Post, "We very carefully did not do that."

He was not promising to remain in the system -- he was promising to drop out of the system, and then opt back in if things went poorly. In that event, the $5.8 million would still be waiting for him. And he'd just hang around to collect it, even if he'd gotten drubbed in New Hampshire and the following states.

What's amazing to me?  Guy who's worth $250 million won't put up some cash of his own. Romney did. McCain's a huckster, through and through.

McBush isn't worth $250 million.  His wife is.  And there's reportedly a prenup.  Smart gal, even despite the drugs.

And as best as I understand it, Obama's "promise" was to pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to accept public spending, assuming certain conditions could be met. He hasn't broken that promise.

Also,since the *actual* nominees won't be known until September...how can you pursue an agreement now?

 It's also a community property state. You can't tell me she couldn't give him some cash. Particularly if he sweet-talked her.

The states McCain used public financing on for ballot access were Ohio and Delaware.

Arizona is community property?   Didn't know that.  But we've *HEARD* what McBush thinks constitutes "sweet-talking" his wife...

  Noone, McCain's not exactly known for sweet talking.  Heh.

And yeah, the law says that if you in anyway use public financing to get money, you're locked in until you're excused.  If McCain wasn't locked in to public financing, why'd he send a letter saying he wanted out?

 RF, owe me a coke.  :)

 The difference in the two campaigns sure is markable, I wonder if candidates tend to run their administrations like they run the campaign.

 Funny how Dems are all for public financing until they have all the money

My oh my. How the worm turns.

I remember not too many years ago it was the Dems always a whinin' about the Repubs havin' all the money!

Now it's............. whats wrong with having a lot of money? It coming from little people, a little at a time, no corps (just people working for corps), from here from there, blah, blah, blah.........its all good........................love it!

Check the time-stamps, Tom.  Diet Pepsi for me... 

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Montfred, that's one reason I favor Obama over Clinton.  He's managed his campaign much better...which is why he's winning.

Gee, funny how Republicans don't want public financing unless they're tanking in private fund-raising, like McBush is.  Good thing Obama didn't commit to it the way McBush did.

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Obama's average donation is reportedly $100.  (I imagine the median's even lower).  That means the donors (I'm one of them) can give many more times before this is through. 

This  maybe why some folks are obsessing...there's months to go kids,keep your chalk board erasers handy.

 Chico, Obama has not said he won't accept public financing limits for the general election (not the primaries, where we still are). What he said was he'd consider an agreement with the Republican nominee, if Obama is the Democratic nominee, for the general election, assuming full agreement will be met between the two candidates.

You think McCain would agree to all the stipulations Obama would put on it? Or that Obama would agree to McCain's stipulations? Ha.

McCain got himself into a bind because his campaign was broke, laying off staff, unable to pay its bills and he turned to the only source of funding he could find. When his campaign rebounded he suddenly found the limits of that agreement chafing and wants out of the deal.

Sad, isn't it? Looking for loopholes in the very law he championed. Obama didn't get himself into this bind. McCain did...and now he's trying to be a weasel about it. So, who's breaking their promises, exactly?

 How can i accept any of this argument you have not shown me any facts showing that MccCAin took a loan with the assumption that he had to take public financing, maybe i missed it but where does any part of his contract says that. Just making it up doesnt proove anything....like when you say McCAIn wants war for a hundred years just because you say it doesnt make if true...

RF good one one the portraying Cindy as a druggie.

Oh and I think McCain probably wants to do public financing liek Obama and him agreed to do along time ago. thats the difference McCain actually keeps his word.

Go Obama lol

oh just saw noones comment

what are yoyu talking about?

Obama did say he would accept the financing with the REp nominee. Full agreement yeah they agree to it. what are you talking about stipulations, the sstipulation are that they accept public financing lol, thats what McCAin might do and if he does Obama will not do it, he's trying to get out of it now.

McCAin took a lone that has nothing to do with public financing, you show me where i mwrong I will stop arguing , you can though but still insist that thats how he got the lone, that is just untrue. He took a loan and rebounded in the polls that is true. And now a REpub is going to be president we can agree there.

Again no loop hole of a law he chamioned, he never took public financing. Maybe you missed it but never did. so how can he violate a law.

 Yup, Chico.  It used to be that  Democrats has the people and Republicans had the money.  Now we have both thanks to Al Gore's internet.  And I still favor public financing.  I think when President Obama puts the new rules together, it'll be a great bill without all the sleazy loopholes.

Today's McCain Myth: John McCain is withdrawing from the public financing system in the same way as other candidates.

To distract from his efforts to unilaterally withdraw from the campaign finance system he once supported, John McCain's campaign is arguing he is withdrawing from the matching funds program in the same way as previous presidential candidates. The fact is, John McCain is breaking the law by trying to unilaterally withdraw from the public financing system after having used the promise of matching funds as collateral for a loan as well as getting on the ballots in some states. [Washington Post, 2/22/08]

Unlike the McCain campaign, which claims it did not need permission from the FEC to withdraw from the matching funds program despite knowing this to not be the case, Governor Dean actually received a letter from the FEC releasing him from the system, saying "the Commission has withdrawn its certification to the Secretary of the Treasury that Howard Dean and Dean for America ('the Committee') are entitled to a payment from the Presidential Primary Matching Account. Please note that both you and the Committee will no longer be bound by the terms of the candidate agreement." [FEC Letter, 12/31/03] In contrast, the FEC sent McCain a letter last week that says he cannot withdraw from the system until he has received approval from the FEC. [AP, 2/22/08]

Clearly, McCain thinks the law applies to everyone but himself and is willing to distort the facts to win an election. After building a career as a Washington reformer, McCain's do-anything-to-win tactics have seriously called his integrity into question.
 

Now we have both thanks to Al Gore's internet

Not just because of the Internet.

U.S. corporations are contributing more to Democrats now than they have in the past. Their contributions to Repugs has gone way down.

They see the writing on the wall.

 BakoSuperman, if he didn't take public financing, why did he write a letter asking to be let out of it?

Simple question.

And why did the FEC write him this letter in response: http://www.fec.gov/press/pr... [PDF]

 Yeah, Sage.  The polls are tight right now.  Once the Dems pick, it's over which is why the media wants to keep the horse race going.

My guess is that's why they're being so coddling of McBush.  If they printed what he's *REALLY* saying and doing, it would already be over and they'd have to report, I don't know, campaign platforms in September/October. 

 BS, are you genuinely that dense, or is it an act?

 Okay, BS: In a response to a Midwest Democracy Network questionnaire, issued in September 2007, Obama wrote: "If I am the Democratic nominee, I will aggressively pursue an agreement with the Republican nominee to preserve a publicly financed general election."

In February of this year, Obama wrote in a USA Today op-ed:

Opposing view: Both sides must agree

I will seek a good faith pact that results in real spending limits.

By Barack Obama

In 2007, shortly after I became a candidate for president, I asked the Federal Election Commission to clear any regulatory obstacles to a publicly funded general election in 2008 with real spending limits. The commission did that. But this cannot happen without the agreement of the parties' eventual nominees. As I have said, I will aggressively pursue such an agreement if I am my party's nominee.

I do not expect that a workable, effective agreement will be reached overnight. The campaign-finance laws are complex, and filled with loopholes that can render meaningless any agreement that is not solidly constructed.

As USA TODAY has critically observed, outside groups have come to spend tens of millions of dollars "independently," while the candidates they favor with these ads "wink and nod" at this activity. There is an even greater risk of this runaway, sham independent spending now that the Supreme Court has wrongly opened the door to more of it in a recent decision.

I propose a meaningful agreement in good faith that results in real spending limits. The candidates will have to commit to discouraging cheating by their supporters; to refusing fundraising help to outside groups; and to limiting their own parties to legal forms of involvement. And the agreement may have to address the amounts that Senator McCain, the presumptive nominee of his party, will spend for the general election while the Democratic primary contest continues.

In l996, an agreement on spending limits was reached by Sen. John Kerry and Gov. William Weld in their Massachusetts Senate contest. They agreed to limits on overall and personal spending and on a mechanism to account for outside spending. The agreement did not accomplish all these candidates hoped, but they believe that it made a substantial difference in controlling outside groups as well as their own spending.

We can have such an agreement this year, and it could hold up. I am committed to seeking such an agreement if that commitment is matched by Senator McCain. When the time comes, we will talk and our commitment will be tested.

I will pass that test, and I hope that the Republican nominee passes his.

There. Are the words from his own hand good enough for you? Or do you need more proof that he placed conditions upon agreeing to accept limits on public financing and the terms each candidate would agree to?

Man, if I'm ever in a jury trial I sure hope you're not in the jury box.

 I always figured all it would take for Democrats to become lover's of money is for them to finally get some

(they don't have to get off their arse's now..........they can do it online)

And as for McCain, here's what the loan document actually says:

Additional Requirement. Borrower and lender agree that if Borrower [McCain's campaign] withdraws from the public matching funds program, but John McCain then does not win the next primary or caucus in which he is active (which can be any primary or caucus held the same day) or does not place at least within 10 percentage points of the winner of that primary or caucus, Borrower will cause John McCain to remain an active political candidate and Borrower will, within thirty (30) days of said primary or caucus (i) reapply for public matching funds, (ii) grant to Lender, as additional collateral for the Loan, a first priority perfected security interest in and to all Borrower's right, title and interest in and to the public matching funds program, and (iii) execute and deliver to Lender such documents, instruments and agreements as Lender may require with respect to the foregoing.

(Here's the document: http://query.nictusa.com/cg.... From this link, you can read the document by page or produce a pdf. Much of it is blurry and boilerplate, until you get to the loan modification agreement starting page 21, which is legible.)

I put into bold the really relevant part.

While it's accurate that McCain didn't explicitly seek public financing, and didn't physically accept funds, it puts him into a real ethical bind.

McCain didn't pledge his existing  certification for matching funds as collateral, (because that would bind him to the system and thus the spending limits), but rather carefully pledged to seek to re-enter the system later, and to use a non-existent future certification as collateral.

And while the system is indeed "voluntary," McCain traded away for cash his right to choose whether to participate in the system, and even his right to drop out of the presidential race, allowing the bank to force McCain "to remain an active candidate" in order to reapply for and qualify for funds.

He was betting the spread (10 points) on his own primary performance!

From my viewpoint, this is a promise to perpetuate fraud on American taxpayers: if he no longer intended to seek the presidency, he made a legally-binding promise to pretend to remain in the race just long enough to collect public money to repay the loan.

And you're harping on Obama for breaking a "promise"he didn't make? Puh-leeze.

I realize this all may be more complicated than you are used to thinking about, but it's really quite serious.

 in a February 25 AP

, Kuhnhenn reported that "McCain's loan, from Fidelity & Trust Bank, has become a central issue in the Arizona senator's attempt to bypass the public financing system and the strict spending caps that come with it. Mason told McCain last week that the commission's approval was required and that he needed to explain the terms of his loan."

Indeed, in his letter to McCain, FEC Chairman David Mason wrote:

As you may be aware, in Advisory Opinion 2003-35 (Gephardt), the Commission balanced the voluntary nature of participating in the Matching Payment Program with the contractual obligations a candidate commits to once he seeks and receives Commissions certification of eligibility to receive payments under the Matching Payment Program. The Commission made clear that a candidate enters into a binding contract with the Commission when he executes the Candidate Agreements and Certifications. AO 2003-35. The Commission stated that it would withdraw a candidate's certifications upon written request, thus agreeing to rescind the contract, so long as the candidate: 1) had not received Matching Payment Program funds, and 2) had not pledged the certification of Matching Payment Program funds as "security for private financing." Id.

Accordingly, we consider your letter as a request that the Commission withdraw its previous certifications. Just as 2 U.S.C. § 437c(c) required an affirmative vote of four Commissioners to make these certifications, it requires an affirmative vote of four Commissioners to withdraw them. Therefore, the Commission will consider your request at such time as it has a quorum.

FEC Chairman: "..... the contractual obligations a candidate commits to once he seeks and receives Commissions certification of eligibility to receive payments under the Matching Payment Program. The Commission made clear that a candidate enters into a binding contract with the Commission when he executes the Candidate Agreements and Certifications. AO 2003-35."

Binding contract? Is that like a campaign promise? Promise, schmomise, binding schminding. Can't the guy just change his mind after he collects more contributions than he figured he'd get?  

So, he used the MPP funds agreement to borrow a few mil from the bank then got some big donations, so what?

What McCain really meant by the McCain-Feingold campaign reform legislation was, uh, well, hmmnn, uh.........

Ultimately this is nothing more than a move by McCain's campaign to a) take away attention from his stupid mistake, and b) try to embarrass Obama in hopes that he'll agree to limit it to public financing also, because that's what McCain is going to be stuck with. If not the fines, and the 5-year prison sentence.

Nothing will happen until after the election.  McBush'll pay a fine--after President Obama nominates some new FEC directors.

  Think of it this way, if McCain wins, he could be out in time to run again in 2012 if he gets time off for good behavior.

And just so we're clear, there is no longer any hypothetical involved in McCain spending beyond his legal limits: http://www.boston.com/news/...

John McCain has officially broken the limits imposed by the presidential public financing system, according to spending reports filed last week by the campaign.

The senator from Arizona has spent $58.4 million on his Republican primary effort. Those who have committed to public financing can spend no more than $54 million on their primary bid.

McCain's lawyers contend that the spending cap no longer applies. The senator was certified to enter the matching-funds program last year when he was starved for cash. But once he started to win, he decided to hold off. On Feb. 6, after his Super Tuesday victories, he wrote to the Federal Election Commission to announce he would withdraw. His lawyers said that gave him freedom to spend as much as he wanted.

But David Mason, chairman of the commission, wrote to McCain's campaign last month to alert him that the commission had not yet granted that withdrawal request, and that the commission would first have to vote on the matter. One snag is that the commission has four vacancies and therefore lacks a quorum to consider the matter.

Meanwhile, McCain's fund-raising has surged, now that he is the presumptive Republican nominee. McCain's campaign said last week that it sees no ambiguity in the law. "The FEC regulations specifically state that candidates who do not receive public funding payments from the US Treasury are exempt from the primary spending ceiling," a senior McCain official said.

His March fund-raising surged to almost 40 percent of Obama's, and a quarter of the Democrats' in total, if I recall correctly.  Mostly maxing out his contributors.