I understand your concern, way, even though I think it is unfounded. If Christianity can survive Nero's persecution, communist persecution, moslem genocide, and--dare I say it?--Christian persecution, I don't think homos prancing about with picket signs are going to tear down the church or its institutions. Families and family values will survive; perhaps emerge stronger for the attacks, however you percieve them.

Thanks Cat ,but that isn't my concern and this is not just about Christians.  Most other traditional religions value the family.  Even Darwinist condemn homosexuality ,because according to their beliefs life is all about reproducing their genes.  Homosexuals obviously have big problems with this.  Also we have to ask are we doing what we can to help homosexuals heal and find real happiness?  As some homosexuals have pointed out the incidence from suffering from other mental illnesses is higher for homosexuals.  So are we really being loving people if we enable self destructive behaviors, instead of helping people learn new ones? 

Actually i believe that by the passage of that ridiculous amendment was more push of your idiotic beliefs on to the american nation than anything else.  Because pray tell... how is the issue of gay marriage NOT a religious issue?  And... all i can say is your argument goes both sides.  I am SICK of hearing about the bible this the bible that.  blah blah blah blah blah.  you tell me like i care!  Because... heres a nice little tip not everyone believes in your piece of fiction.  So...

Find real happiness?  Dude... do you even listen to yourself? And you're equating homosexuality with mental illness?! Where do you get your facts?  From some religious website.  Because i believe you are WAY off.  All i can say is you can say the lines like a christian, dress like a christian, play the role, but when you get down to it your heart and soul is as black as coal.  And you're playing nothing but a part in some morality play.

So are we really being loving people if we enable self destructive behaviors, instead of helping people learn new ones? 

That is the most ignorant statement ever.  Have you EVER taken in to account that it's not like turning on a switch.  Gay, not gay, gay, not gay.  Do you think someone would CHOOSE this lifestyle.  To have to listen to the moronic points of view from people like you?  To be ostracized by society?  And... UGH!  People like you make me so glad i left the church.  You preach about forgiveness and acceptance but you do nothing but judge and push away people not like you.  And it's bull that you will ignore all the other parts of the bible becuse that fits your point of view but when it comes to this because it doesn't affect you it's evil and an abomination.  Oh my god... it's not like you can take a pill and stop being gay. If that were possible, like any other form of "mental illness" they would have done it!  But here's a tip there isn't one.  And there never will. 

Thanks Defy for that from the heart example of pro gay marriage argument.  I rest my case. 

LOL! And what case is that!?  There isn't one.  I just did the same thing you did.  I gave my point of view.  That's all it is.  I pushed my beliefs on you like you intend to do to the rest of the city, county, state, country, world!  It just so happens that a large number of people think just like you.  That's what happens in a cult, they get you to think alike.  Act the same, look the same... It creates conformity. I'm sick of people saying the gay agenda or... whatever.  Because their IS a christian agenda.  It just so happens you think yours is the right way.  well... i think mines right.  So, it seems we've reached a difference of opinion.  That's what happens in life.

The reason this is personal is because you're not attacking higher taxes or... school spending or traffic laws or... something else mundane.  You're attacking me.  You are telling me I don't have a right to live my life.  I don't want to tell you about how i live my life.  I feel a personal duty and responsibility to keep my personal life to myself.  But one day... when I meet that perfect person i want to spend eternity with I'd like the oppertunity.   And i'm sure by allowing gay marriage you think I'm attackign your personal beliefs.  yet again... a difference of opinion.  It just sucks because... you'll win.  Because it's always fun to kick sand in the little guys face.  He can't fight back.

I am a husband (one of the lucky 18,000) and a father and my family is VERY important to me! More important than everything else in my life by far. I don't know where people get off saying that gay people have no family values, because many many many of us DO!  Treating people who are not like me differently is NOT a value I plan to instill in my children.

When gay marriage is legal everywhere in the US, which I'm sure it will be someday, people will see that our society will not crumble, "traditional" marriages will still happen, and children will not be "programmed to be gay in school."

BTW...it has already been proven that homosexuality is genetic...it's just been "hush hushed" by the bigoted powers that be.   Christians have a big problem with pride and are very reluctant to admit they're wrong about anything.  Just look at what they did to Galileo when he discovered that the sun does not revolve around the earth.

Uh, Medlock, did you not hear the recent news that the top medical organization in the nation has removed any suggestion of the existence of a gay gene from its website? Perhaps it's about time your side stop being reluctant to admit that this is nothing but a canard being trotted out to justify your deviant lifestyle. After all, do you suppose a bestiality gene exists?

Yed I did-  hence the "hush hush" comment!

Being gay is not a choice...period.  Those who claimed to have been "set free" are still gay...they have just been programmed to not be their true selves.

I appreciate your comment Medlock.  It is much better than the pure, confused, emotional assault of some.  But it is still very weak.  First of all you reason that I want to treat you differently than other people.  That is plainly absurd.  The reality is that you want special treatment.  Are you arguing that polygamist and pedophiles should have equal marriage rights?  I didn't think so.  Your premises are also weak.  For one you have no hard evidence to back up any of them!  We have only your word and promise about family values, or the triumph of fantasy marriages, or the good intentions of the gay community, or that homosexuality is genetic, or some conspiracy exists to bury such evidence, or that Christians are prideful.  But we do know that Galileo lived and died a devout Roman Catholic Christian.www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/the_faith_of_ga lileo/   So we can only conclude that your absurd reasoning, false premises only lead to a false conclusion.  You have only to read the linked article in the above blog to see the reasons gay marriage is an attack on the larger community as a whole.  The facts are already in, look at the attacks on religious institutions that have occurred in Canada, Great Britain and states were unnatural marriage has been legalized;P

Comparing homosexuality to pediophilia is also another horrible horrible stereotype/comparison. 

As for polygamy...personally, I don't get it, but if Mormons want to have it for religious reasons, what's it to me?  And I'm not just saying that because I'm a fan of "Big Love."  lol

Equal treatment under the law is NOT special treatment.

The gay community is not, and has never tried to outlaw or attack "traditional marriage."  Nor would gay marriages require churches to perform same sex ceremonies.  Churches can still pick and choose who gets married in their church.   

Bringing up beastality is another weak arguement.  Man and woman, man and man or woman and woman...still the same species!

The concept is simple...if you are against gay marriage...don't marry one. 

Sorry...I don't believe the Bible is hard evidence for anything.  You haven't brought that up...yet, but the Bible is responsible for majority of the argument.  Speaking of...(on a side note) I find it funny that Christians don't approve of incest, yet in the Bible, when you think about it logically, incest would have had to happen!

Yes, I am aware that Galileo was religious, but it did not stop the church for putting him in jail for blasphomy.  Darwin was religious as well!

I was just demonstrating the flaw in your reasoning Medlock.  The fact is you are receiving special treatment.  The state is upholding your pretend marriage.  If we had equal rights under the law then someone could marry their sister and not be thrown into jail.  I for one don't believe your opinion should be taken as hard evidence no matter how much you wave your magic wand.  You are also very wrong that this is solely a Christian/gay issue.  As you would note in a earlier comment of mine that many other religions including atheistic/Darwinism are against homosexual marriage.  If your own argument that it is not your fault ,but due to flawed genes were correct.  Then from the Darwinist perspective you should be sterilized to be sure that your unhealthy genes be removed from the gene pool.  Hitler tried that and I don't think anyone can sanely say that Hitler was right. 

Solely?  I said majority..which does not mean ALL.

Who said my opinion was hard evidence?  Certainly not me.

And my marriage is not a pretend one...I have the state issued certificate to prove it.  Besides, my marriage has absolutely nothing to do with you or yours.  I get the feeling you used that "pretend" word because you are fustrated about the courts claiming that Proposition H8 was not retroactive.

Well Medlock you got to admit that one of the homosexual's basic argument against Prop 8 is in fact,  their intolerance for Christians.  As you yourself pointed out you don't regard the Holy Bible as authoritative.  As I countered I don't regard your opinion of the Bible as authoritative or about anything else.  This leads me to once again point out that the premises of your initial argument were not based on hard evidence ,but instead they were backed by your opinions on the issue.  I have already presented evidence how your attacks on marriage are just a wedge to attack every else's civil rights.  Finally I use the word pretend ,because the fact is that marriage between two individuals of the same sex is against the natural order of things and no act of man will ever change that anymore than 2+2 will ever equal anything ,but 4 P.S. remind what your point about incest was? 

Our argument is not based on the intolerance of Christians, but rather on Christian's intolerance of us.  Many Christians do not seem to be tolerant of anything that doesn't coencide with their faith, but rather than "turn the other cheek," they would rather legislate their rules on everyone else.  Besides gay marriage, abortion and stem-cell research would be other examples of that.

However, there are many Christians out there who are on our side.  And there are even gay Christians! 

As for my incest comment...I was simply pointing out that I find it funny that Christians frown on incest, but if they believe in the Adam and Eve story, well, incest would have had to have happened.  Polygamy was prominent throughout the Bible as well. 

I'm going to leave it here.  Say whatever you want , twist my words, and keep that cross in your back wound up good and tight if it will make you feel better, or holier, or more righteous or whatever.  My summer off of work is about to begin and I promised myself that I would spend all my time with my children instead of blogging with people such as yourself.

Good day.

Awwh, such a disappointment.  You started out trying to argue rationally, but when the weaknesses of your argument were presented.  Instead of replying in a rational manner you quickly debased yourself with emotional assaults.  Which proves my premises, that the main arguments against Prop 8 are emotionally based and not rational.  I for one vote for rational discussion instead of irrational emotional attacks as a basis of a social policy that effects everyone.

Well said.  You should feel really really really good about yourself by now.  You are SO rational by dodging the points I have made..yeah...keep telling yourself that.  Good night.

BTW...does anyone know how I go about deleting my account?  I'm done with this blog.  "Real men know when to just walk away."

Running away is never the answer.  Now that you have seen the inadequacy of your old ways of thinking.  Don't fall into despair!  That too is from the devil!  You can with God's help change your life and become the person that God created you to be.  Not that I would presume to be a spiritual teacher ,but I can help point the way.  Look into the ancient teachings of Orthodox Christianity and let God guide you. +May the Lord bless you and illuminate You+   

Sorry- but I left religion years ago and it has done wonders for me...for the better.  Thanks for the offer, but I really don't care to put the chains back on.

I correctly pointed out in Axiomtek's blog that I who am neither right wing , nor Evangelical have successfully defended my position against gay marriage using only secular logic.  Which shows that the whole assertion that Prop 8 is only a right wing/evangelical argument that is based only on Christian tradition to be totally false.  For some reason that comment seemed to have disappeared.  Not that I am accusing Axiomtek of deleting it.  For all I know it may have been some crossed wires on the sight.  But any ole' hoo.  Here is the point restated;) 

Paxi: You do not understand: Explain this: I have 12 brothers and sisters of the 12,  2 are gay, We had the same upbringing, we went to church every Sunday, even in the summer..so tell me Why are the 2 gay? And bestiality and pedophile does not compare to being gay.  I love my brothers and I WILL NOT TAKE A BIBLE AND HIT THEM OVER THE HEAD WITH IT,,I WILL LOVE THEM .And explain to me why some priests are pedophiles? Or is it because they are gay just don't admit it?

I rather my sibling be gay, Than A Murderer: Than A Rapist : and Sometimes I am glad He is gay and not straight as some of you straight men.

Sorry I am not Pax.  As to why some succumb to homosexuality; why do some become drug addicts?  No one asked you to hit him over the head with a Bible ,but if you really loved them then you would do what you can to heal them of their sickness.  If your brother was a crack head would you just give up on them and say it's Ok you were made that way? 

I was answering Pax as he seems to think its not genetic: Exactly no one knows I can drink and the next person takes a drink and becomes alcoholic, no I do not believe it is a sickness. For me it not the same as a crack head.

There is no evidence that it is solely genetic although many pro - homosexual scientist having been trying for years to prove just that.  As a matter of fact, that would be contrary to the theory of evolution which theorizes that only traits with a survival advantage are successfully passed on through the generations.  Homosexuality clearly is a survival disadvantage since you can not reproduce with someone of the same sex.  The fact is that it is a habitual pattern of self destructive behaviors.  It has been proven time and time again that such behavioral patterns can be changed.  No one ever said it was easy.  It takes a lot of work and the grace of God.  But it can be done. 

Alright.  I'll bite.  I will go about this in a completely objective way and not let my emotions gain ground.

Alright. Yes evolution does say that it's all about procreation and passing on of the genes.  Then if we want to use that argument then marriage shouldn't even been an issue.  Since it's all about passing on with the generations.  Marriage is a pointless institution like with animals, because that's what evolution compares us to.  If we are just animals and it is about procreation then we should be all about polygamy (or if marriage isn't involved) having many sexual partners to pass on our genes.  Only the strong will survive.  So does that mean that you are agreeing with that as well? Also, evolution is taught that life finds  a way.  Well, there is an overpopulation of people in our society.  Don't you think that MAYBE this is natures way of thinning the herd? And just because gay men and women can't pass on their genes with another of the same sex doesn't mean they dont' have that biological desire to.  I know for one that many of my friends and gay men plan on having kids with a surrogate.  I for one want to adopt.  If you look at what I have in my gene pool (obesity, diabetes, cancer) I wouldn't want to pass on what they potentially could have.  I am actually more repsponsible for my future generations by deciding to not procreate.  As opposed to heterosexual couples who have children not really taking in their families history.

You use the argument about homosexuality as if it's an addiction.  Well... having been an alcoholic, I KNOW that I didn't want to drink when I was 13 years old.  No one does.  It's something you have to first taste and then desire a taste and want of alcohol.  Same with drugs.  No one is born WANTING heroin (except if their a crack baby and already have it in their system.)  But homosexuality is a want from birth.  I know from my own experience, and those of my friends, that it was something we WANTED from a young age.  We had a sexual attraction to men, not women.  And i wasn't taught being gay is okay and so have the other gay men and women. 

Then back when I was speaking irrationally (I will give you that, since i was allowing my emotions to control my thoughts) you said it was a mental illness.  Well, if it was like any other mental illness it would easily be cured with medication.  LIke anxiety, depression, schitzophrenia or any other.  Those mental disorders do have some sort of medical cure or alleviation.  But there isn't one for being gay.  And if it was wouldn't there be one?  If our minds are that easily manipulated why isn't their a medication to cure that "mental disorder?"  Because if a pill was all it took I know a huge group of married men who would love it.

And gay marriage attacking the family unit... hm... how?  So if bill and bob get married how does that affect you or your family? It doesn't.  That whole argument that it would teach kids in schools is a lie.  I don't see how or why it would?  I believe that is just your sides propaganda to get people to vote yes.  Because all you have to do is get the kids involved and people get angry.  Just because same sex marriage is allowed doesn't mean they are going to teach kids about it.  And i personally think setting aside a time in class to learn about it is ridiculous.  That'd be like setting aside a time to learn about the bible, or hindu, or muslim, or buddhism.  I wouldn't want my kids to learn about something I personally don't fully understand.

Anyway... those are my logical arguments.  Have at. 

Thank you for your response Defy;)  I don't believe in Darwinism my self.  I used that example to show how those who do put stock in that faith; must admit by their own belief system that they too must reject the myth that homosexuality is a healthy thing for the individual or society.  The ironic thing is those that who are are zealously Darwinist are also most likely to support false marriages.  Your next idea about wanting it from birth.  Are you saying that people are born with sexual lust?  That may work in the old Freudian theory ,but modern psychology has largely disproven Freud.  While we are on the subject of psychology you seem to be under the misconception that we can treat mental illnesses solely by prescribing medications.  This is false.  Medications are necessary to help correct chemical imbalances and stabilize a person.  But that person still must learn to let go of distorted thinking processes and replace them with healthier ones.  Which reaffirms my point we shouldn't enable unhealthy behaviors or think they can be magically cured.  Any destructive habits take work to overcome them and replace them with healthy habits.  As for gay marriage being a threat to the rest of society.  This is easily demonstrated.  Look at the number of legal actions being instigated by gays in areas that have legalized gay marriage.  As predicted those laws are now being used as the basis to attack any individual or religious institutions that disagree with them.  You can see in the link posted in the blog; just a few examples.  Which also bring us home to the point of this blog.  Gay marriages are not just about the right of people to have unnatural relations ,but is just a step in the process of denying religious freedoms and a violation of church and state.

 Good points wayfarer.

But are you assuming that all homosexuals are Darwinists? Because the ones I know are atheists. And yet again you would be treating Darwinism as a religion and it’s not. It’s a scientific theory that expalains the origin of man. Which is just a theory and is, like it says, is ever evolving. People discover new things every day that prove one thing or another.

No I don't assume all homosexuals are Darwinist.  But some people try to turn science and real theories or pseudo sciences into religions even if they are blind to the fact.  If it is a fact that people have sexual drives from birth then prove it.  For one to say you know something since birth is to say you remember everything from birth which no one does.  Modern science does demonstrate that and also your understanding of modern psychological illnesses and treatments is lacking.  Another point.  When a person does develop sexual drives; he is also expected to develop morality and controls for those drives.  So if you are a normal man and you have normal sexual appetite for women.  It is still not socially acceptable to seduce everything in a skirt.  If you are abnormal and like children.  You had really better seek help or would will quickly find yourself in big trouble.  So are you suggesting that homosexuals are the exception to the rule?  Are they special and need not learn to control themselves?  You seem to be ignorant of the separation of religion and the state in this country.  First of all this is not a Christian country.  The myth that it is or that it is run by the religious right is a fairy tale being passed around by ignoramuses.  You contradict yourself when you say religious rights will be protected ,but individuals that are practicing their rights will not ,because they are clearly being discriminatory.  On top of that all we have is your word for it.   

And the pedophile card. I love it!  Okay... seeing as how a child is innocent and lacks the understanding or comprehension of sex nor the knowledge of what it is, and the fact that their sexual organs are undeveloped, makes pedophiles and pedophelia wrong.  the same goes for beastiality. (sp?) Animals and children have no understandign or concept of the act, they are innocent and pure things.  Thus, makes what grown adults do to children and animals wrong.  But two adult males or females KNOW what sex is, which differentiates them from being pedophiles.

You are correct i don't remember from the womb.  Some people do, oddly enough.  But in rare cases and don't have anything to do with this situation.  But regardless if i remember or not I know that when I reached puberty I was fantacisizing about boys, not girls.  And my understanding is that most gay men and women would agree with me.  So try and explain their point of view.

Also, who are you to say what is and isn't morally acceptable?  Because according to the bible it's immoral to marry outside of your race.  It's immoral to have sex before marriage, but that still happens.  it's immoral to have a child out of wedlock.  But that still happens.  It's also immoral to become drunk and billigerent but that still happens.

Also, my knowledge of mental illnesses may be lacking on ADD, but I know for a fact about depression and schitzophrenia, because both run in my family.  And your argument was about a chemical imbalance in the brain, not knowledge of mental illnesses.  Well if i'm chemically unbalanced in my brain about being attracted to men medicinal help isn't going to revert my sexual attraction to women.  So it can't be a mental illness.

You also say that it is not socially acceptable to chase skirts.  Do you watch television? I can immediatly think of two television programs that have main characters who are boozing womanizing males that have nothing negative happen to them.  There is no moral end to the show that says "act like this and you'll have this happen."  Plus, my exes father used to "sport f***" as he called it.  And most of his friends looked up to him, even joked about it.  And it's not socially acceptable?

Also, no i'm not ignorant to the seperation of church and state.  Are you?  Why is it that we have "in god we trust" on all our money?  We just spent a large amount of money in our school district to get that printed on posters and put in EVERY classroom. Also, in the pledge of allegiance it says "one nation under god." Yet again... religion.  IN the presidential elections or any elect for some political position their religious beliefs, for many, is a deciding factor on whether or not they will vote for them.  This whole constitutional amendment was religion based.  They had a HUGE donation from the mormon church to the YES on 8 campaign.  Tax free money i should add!  Churches handing out yes on 8 stickers.  When did the church tell their followers how to vote?  Shouldn't that be left up to them?

And I'm not contradictory, the law is.  Religion can descriminate all they want but if a shopkeeper does then it's illegal. 

Please try stay focused.  I pointed out pedophile as an example of someone who has abnormal drives ,but our society still expects them to control them.  You haven't answered my question are homosexuals the exception to not having to learn to control themselves?  Bringing up other peoples failures is just a cop out and distraction from the issue.  You should also go back and reread my blog and comments more carefully ,because you are getting confused.  For instance I didn't say that homosexuality was due to a chemical in balance.  I brought up chemical imbalance ,because you are under the impression that mental illness can be cured if you take the right drugs.  As for the In God we Trust bit.  That is a relic of the American Civil religion that teaches things like respect for the flag and patriotism.  They are not expressions of the Christian faith.  Finally the last part shows you have your own agenda against other religions that seems to contradict your promises not to discriminate against other people.  Well I am done for the day.  I hope this conversation has caused you to think.  Thinking like any other skill gets better with practice;) 
  

Aw... you're brushing me off.  Oh well... I'm sure both were trying to do the same thing.  "enlighten" the other.  Alas... 

And are they the exception?  Yes, they are.  I gave my argument and explained how being gay is different than a pedophile. And if they're supposed to stop being gay that would be like me asking you to stop being attracted to your opposite sex and be attracted to the same.  You just can't do it. 

Also, it's not a distraction, it's a fact.  And proves that our morals are always changing and never stay for very long.  It's all about public perception.  

And no you didn't say homosexuality was due to a chemical imbalance.  You said that medication helps the chemical imbalance in the brain.  Which i took as you saying that mental illness is just a chemical imbalance.  And you said that homosexuality was a mental illness. So thus... it's a "chemical imbalance."  Unless misunderstood.

And whether or not it's "american civil religion"  it's still taking one side.  Because not all religions believe in God.  and this country is supposed to have freedom of religion. And those things weren't always there.  They came about, i believe, in the 40's.  So the flag should be patriotic enough.  And whether or not it's "under god" doesn't have anything to do with patriotism.

The point is, we are both looking at the same thing from opposite sides.  And we will see what we want to see.  So it's really pointless to debate such issues.  Because it's all about beliefs and moral codes. And you have your opinions and i have mine.  and both are strong.  And unless we have an open mind nothing is going to sink in.

And as far as speaking about mental illness are you a doctor?  Have you study mental illness?  Nope and neither have I.  So neither of us are qualified enough to make such statements.  But, even if we were to look for studies to support our points of view we'd both find contradictory findings.  And I'm sure some would say that my point of view was paid to say that.  Well, how do you know yours wasn't?