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anglo1 - > anglo1 -> Dem. Congressman Keith Ellison will swear on the Koran not the Bible. Does it Matter?
Dem. Congressman Keith Ellison will swear on the Koran not the Bible. Does it Matter?

Newly elected Democratic congressman from Minn. will not be sworn in with the Bible but the Koran.  If this is OK with all, should a Nazi elected to an office be allowed to be sworn in using 'Mien Kamph'? Just wondering how you here in Bako town feel. 

My first thought is he was voted in by citizens that knew he was Muslim so there shouldn't be a problem.  But I'm having second thoughts now.  KKK, Nazis, Atheists etc. does it really matter?

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posted by anglo1 on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 at 05:59 PM
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posted by dgrealish on Nov 29, 2006 at 06:23 PM

It raises a whole lot of questions, doesn't it Anglo?  But I see nothing wrong with it.  If his faith is in the words of the Koran and he chooses to be sworn in using it, that's his privilege.  The problem would be if he weren't allowed to be sworn in on it.

posted by tonyh on Nov 29, 2006 at 06:46 PM

It'll definitely be a first............

The severe cold up there in the winter must kill brain cells or something. Didn't they elect a Wrastler for Governer awhile back?

These days, electing a Mislem is like electing a Nazzi in the 1940's. In general, it seems like a fairly off-the-wall endeavor..............Whatever............

posted by AudreyB on Nov 29, 2006 at 07:03 PM

Let me see..........  The Koran in one hand,  Mien Kamph in the other. 

I choose neither.  I want to swear on a Dick and Jane primer.

posted by tonyh on Nov 29, 2006 at 08:06 PM

AudreyB,

LOL!

posted by jasonsperber on Nov 29, 2006 at 08:47 PM
Apples and oranges, Anglo. Tradition has officials swear on the holy book of their faith, meaning religion, not poliical ideology.
posted by anglo1 on Nov 29, 2006 at 09:49 PM

If the swearing in ceremony is held at the same time as others using the Bible and the ratio of Christians to Muslims is lets say 10 to 1 are we pushing Christianity on the first [non traditional Jason] Muslim.  I agree with Dgrealish it just raises a lot of questions.  I wonder if the legal Organization mentioned here often will come to  his aid if he feels uncomfortable with all the Biblical invocations in his presence.  Honestly everyone I just wonder about  the long term implications. Do we abandon swearing in ceremonies using religious preferences altogether, I don't know.  It is a new world.

Audrey I know what one is but who is Jane?

posted by mattloch on Nov 30, 2006 at 08:12 AM
I actually had a buddy who was called up to be a witness in a court case, and when he went up to be "sworn in", the bailiff asked him the standard "do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God?" My friend answered, "I don't believe in God." So the bailiff asked him, "do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?" To which my friend answered, "so help me God!" . . . Yea, the judge was not amused.
posted by randomfactor on Nov 30, 2006 at 08:23 AM

There are all kinds of ways to take an oath.  I haven't been sworn-in to testify for about 15 years, but I recall the "so help me God" in the oath, but I replied "I do" to the first part, about telling the truth.  Didn't need any help.

Cecil Adams once did a bit on the various alternative oaths, some of which involve shattering crockery (no, I'm not kidding).  Can't seem to find it, though.

posted by ProgressivePete2 on Nov 30, 2006 at 08:35 AM
If I understand it correctly, you don't even have to "swear" you can simply affirm (like random did above). The bible or other religious text is not manditory either, and this is the part of the constitution that truly separates Church and State. We can thank the Quakers for not having to swear since it was against their religion.


The Presidential oath of office is described in Article II, section 1 of the Constitution:

    Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:--"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
.

Oaths of office for other federal and state officials are described in Article VI of the Constitution:

    The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
http://candst.tripod.com/tn...
posted by randomfactor on Nov 30, 2006 at 08:47 AM

Gee, Pete, I don't see any mention that "so help me God" *OR* a Bible must be there.  Do you think it was left out for a reason?

.

Mattloch, remember the scene in "Oh, God!" in which George Burns takes the stand and swears to tell the truth "So help Me, Me"?

posted by anglo1 on Nov 30, 2006 at 08:56 AM
Its not mandatory but has come to be expected.  I am sure some mean and feel with their heart and soul the oath and swearing to God but, I also think to some it is grandstanding, not genuine, but feel they must do it with flourish to appease some of their constituents.
posted by ProgressivePete2 on Nov 30, 2006 at 08:59 AM
Absolutely. Not only do you have to take an oath for office, but you're guaranteed the right to avoid taking an oath.

I may be breaking some copyright rules here, but this part of my above link really illustrates this concept.

Joseph Story, an early Justice of the Supreme Court and the author of the first detailed commentary on the United States Constitution, comments on the oath or affirmation clause of the Constitution as follows:

    Oaths have a solemn obligation upon the minds of all reflecting men, and especially upon those who feel a deep sense of accountability to a Supreme being. If, in the ordinary administration of justice in cases of private rights, or personal claims, oaths are required of those, who try, as well as of those, who give testimony, to guard against malice, falsehood, and evasion, surely like guards ought to be to be interposed in the administration of high public trusts, and especially in such, as may concern the welfare and safety of the whole community. But there are know denominations of men, who are conscientiously scrupulous of taking oaths (among which is that pure and distinguished sect of Christians, commonly called Friends, or Quakers,) and therefore, to prevent any unjustifiable exclusion from office, the constitution has permitted a solemn affirmation to be made instead of an oath, and as its equivalent (Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833, pp. 1838ff.).

In other words, the Constitution guarantees all federal and state officials the right to avoid taking oaths of office. Further, the Constitution guarantees that there will be no religious tests for federal office. In the words of Joseph Story, the effect of these provisions is to "cut off for ever every pretense of any alliance between church and state in the national government." Additionally, these clauses moved the Constitution well beyond contemporary state constitutions in terms of their provisions for religious freedom.

posted by randomfactor on Nov 30, 2006 at 09:03 AM
Times are changing, Anglo.  Remember when it was "to be expected" that a Congressman not only be white, but male as well?
posted by anonymous on Nov 30, 2006 at 09:06 AM
Ancient Romans swore their oaths on their testicles. That's where the word "testify" comes from.
posted by randomfactor on Nov 30, 2006 at 09:18 AM
That wouldn't have worked at the Inauguration, Anny.
posted by anglo1 on Nov 30, 2006 at 09:23 AM
That is funny. Rfer.
posted by mattloch on Nov 30, 2006 at 09:40 AM
I thought the president swore to protect the citizens of the country, Constitution be damned. Or at least that's what he insisted when he needed the PATRIOT Act passed. Or Habeas Corpus suspended. Or countries invaded......
posted by randomfactor on Nov 30, 2006 at 09:41 AM
Were there any real, Divine consequences of breaking an oath ending in the words "so help me, God," the White House would provide a significant source of electricity through lightning strikes alone.
posted by TomW on Nov 30, 2006 at 09:55 AM
Franklin Pierce is the only US President who took an affirmation instead of an oath, IIRC, though I'm sure it's much more common in the Congress.
posted by AudreyB on Nov 30, 2006 at 10:41 AM

How about swearing on your honor?  That has more meaning for me than swearing on a deity.

posted by mattloch on Nov 30, 2006 at 10:48 AM
That's assuming the person has honor, Audrey. You know what they say about making assumptions, don't you? Why not make the affirmation/oath more like the "Miranda" rule- instead of swearing to tell the truth, inform the person that if they don't tell the complete and total truth "what you say can and will be used against you in a court of law", or something to that effect. Let the people know that there are real consequences for not telling the truth, beyond whatever punishment a diety may dole out on their everlovin' souls.....
posted by randomfactor on Nov 30, 2006 at 10:51 AM
Thing is, in most cases there aren't any consequences.
posted by mattloch on Nov 30, 2006 at 11:04 AM
Which is why I view the "Scooter" trial less as a way to scare politicians by threat of jail time and more as a scare through release of embarassing and potentially harmful evidence of misdeeds and abuses.
posted by randomfactor on Nov 30, 2006 at 11:39 AM

Turns out there is no Bible involved in Congressional oaths of office.  The right-wing radio host made it all up.

http://thinkprogress.org/20...

posted by TomW on Nov 30, 2006 at 12:07 PM
Thanks, RF.  Another non-issue. 
posted by AudreyB on Nov 30, 2006 at 12:59 PM
Creating diversity out of nothing at all.  Typical.
posted by dusty1215 on Nov 30, 2006 at 01:36 PM
wow..I missed the whole discussion. I was going to ask how the socialist from Vermont was going to be sworn in.
posted by anonymous on Nov 30, 2006 at 03:22 PM

Religion has nothing to do with the function of the office. Americans, who are mostly Christians, have the arrogance to think that their religion is the only "true" religion.

The fact that this is even posted as a question is absurd. It seems that every little thing that is different seems to be an issue.

The sun doesn't rise or set on America. It is a good country, the BEST country, but all that we do is right.

Who cares what someone is sweared in with. What possible difference could it make!?

posted by anonymous on Nov 30, 2006 at 05:45 PM

Posted by Drummel:

 

I'm a little late on this topic BUT

The sole purpose of the oath is to uphold the Constitution. All religion aside.

For the President's oath, "So help me God" was verbally added by George Washington and was traditionally continued there after.

For Senators & Reps, the actual text "So help me God" is in the oath and was voted into law sometime after the Civil War.

 

 

posted by anglo1 on Nov 30, 2006 at 07:20 PM

This is really interesting to me, if he were Jewish and swore on the Torah, Muslim the Koran, Christian the Bible it is the individual freedom to swear your oath to the laws of this country on the Religious Scriptures of your choice or not.  Pretty amazing isn't it.  As long as they swear to uphold the laws of these U.S. it is their choice.

I just hope the next blog subject isn't about Muslim communities here enforcing Sharia laws and ignoring the laws of the U.S.

posted by gr8scott on Dec 1, 2006 at 02:32 PM

I believe that they are "swearing" to uphold the constitution and laws. It is understood, why I don't know, that if someone swears on the bible it has more validity. If that is the case, then a person could swear on what they, not you, believe.

 

posted by Hardliner4freedom on Dec 1, 2006 at 02:37 PM

Here's an AOL poll on the topic:

http://articles.news.aol.co...

The results are very disappointing.

I've voiced my criticisms of Islam in the past, but the man was lawfully elected.  I can't think of anything more un-American than telling this man that his holy book of faith is not an acceptable vehicle for taking an oath, and that the book of the "de facto official religion of the United States" must be used instead.

posted by ProgressivePete2 on Dec 1, 2006 at 02:43 PM
H4F, what do you expect. It's an aol poll. They have to be the worst ISP in the whole world. That is unless you like re-installing your OS after their new software jacks up your whole system. I would guess the intelligence level of their users is quite a bit lower than the rest of the planet.
posted by mattloch on Dec 1, 2006 at 02:47 PM
Hardliner, that's a little like being disappointed in a Faux-News website poll, isn't it? Consider the source, and you'll find the reason for the "skew".
posted by Star4Jesus on Jan 16, 2007 at 05:34 PM
I  do not believe in swearing on either one, it does not mean you will tell the truth even if you are Christian or Muslim. I lied when I had to do a deposition but only later realize I actually did.  So  I see no point in using any spiritual item to swear.
posted by justincase on Jul 22, 2007 at 10:45 AM

I'd rather see all of them swear, not on the Bible, Quran, Torah, etc..... Instead I'd rather see them swear on

 

THE CONSTITUTION 

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