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axiomtek - > LIBERTY OR DEATH -> Atheism & Meaning
Atheism & Meaning

Atheism & Meaning

The following is a response to a small dinner table conversation that was made yesterday on the topic of meaning in the context of an atheistic worldview (godless worldview). I was asked whether, as an atheist, I find meaning in things, and whether I find there is a purpose to life.

First let's try to figure out what's being said, and what it means.

MEANING

The most basic form of meaning is the meaning of words. "Cat" refers to a specific animal, with specific features (mammal, furry etc). The word "Cat" itself would be meaningless if it did not refer to something outside of itself. One can't imagine a set of symbols simply meaning something intrinsically. Lopletrox is a meaningless for the very reason that those symbols do not refer to any object or state of affairs, however, the moment a object/state of affairs is designated for the word Lepletrox the word has a meaning.

So it appears that meaning in the context of language is relational to objects/states of affairs. The meaning of words is therefore extrinsic (not essential or inherent; not a basic part or quality), and not intrinsic (belonging to a thing by its very nature)

The meaning of words therefore can be summarized as: Word X has meaning IF X refers to Y

What about the meaning of objects or persons? Think about something that has meaning, or means something to you, and try and pin down what about that thing or person is different that it is meaningful?

I have a small teddy bear I named Taker (for when I was younger, I took him everywhere). It's the same bear that was given to me when I was born. This small teddy bear has a great deal of meaning to me. When I put taker next to another teddy bear that does not have meaning it becomes clear why Taker has meaning while the other does not. Taker has been with me my entire life and is probably one of the first objects I've ever touched. Taker has meaning because it's associated with certain valued memories or certain rare moments. So again, it appears that the meaning of taker is relational and extrinsic. However, not like words, taker refers to certain mental/subjective states. Taker's meaning exists under the conditions that he refers to certain valued or rare events/memories.

So the meaning of objects & persons can be summarized as: X has meaning IF X refers to certain valued mental-states in person P

The commonality of these types of meaning are that they are A) Relational (quality only exists in relation to something else) B) Extrinsic (not inherent) C) Subjective (requires a mind to exist to make the reference of words, requires a mind to be referred to in objects/persons)

Now, when I was asked about meaning I tried my best to summerise this. Mike E. after I was done, said 'basically, there is no meaning' to which I replied that there was, he replied 'it's not objective meaning'

OBJECTIVE MEANING?

What about objective meaning? What does this mean? Let's first make the distinction between objective and subjective.

Subjective
1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject
2. relating to properties or specific conditions of the mind as distinguished from general or universal experience
 

Objective
1. existing independent of thought or an observer as part of reality.

2.  intent upon or dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings

"The earth is round" is objective since it's truth is independent of thought or minds. The existence of agents is not a condition that is required for such a statement to be true. "The sun is warm" is subjective in the sense that 'warmth' is a feeling. Sensations exist in minds. The statement 'the sun is warm' can only be true if there exists agents/minds. Now, there is another sharp distinction that needs to be made before everyone gets confused. A subjective statement can be objectively true and still remain subjective. "I am warm" refers to a subjective state of the mind, but it's truth is objective since my my feeling of warmth remains to be true regardless of other minds. You can objectively measure my subjective feeling. Now, with the sun, we may label 100 degrees as 'hot' and therefore the sun was hot before the existence of life. But that's simply a label referring to an objective state of affairs, namely the measurable temperature. The subjective experience of such objective states of affairs, such as warmth is still subjective although its of objective states of affairs! Sorry, just read that twice and you'll understand.

So can something have 'objective meaning?' - After thinking about whats required for something to have meaning the answer it clearly no. If [X has meaning IF X refers to certain valued mental-states in person P] is true, then objective meaning becomes an oxymoron. Things have meaning in relation to subjects, so how can you have a subjective-objective thing? It would be like saying "It's my objective thought" - If objective means 'existing independent of thought' how can you have a thought that is independent of thought? I'll give you $500 if you have an objective thought.

So if all that has been said is true, then Mike is right, under atheism there is no objective meaning - but that's only true because objective meaning is an oxymoron.

PURPOSE?

For something to have a purpose, by definition, it must be something that is designed/formed/created with an intention/goal in mind. A fork has a purpose only by virtue that it was designed with the intention of a certain use. Intentionality is the key to purpose. So of course in an atheistic universe, the universe and man has no purpose since it was not designed with any intentionality. Forks, houses, TVs, job classes still have purpose, since they are motivated by intention. So to say "if atheism is true there is no purpose" is simply false.

Some may say, and Mike E. will or has "Yeah, but it's not ultimate purpose." If what is meant by this is, ultimately the entire cosmos has no purpose. Of course, but that's true with god as well. Was god created/designed with a goal in mind? No, by definition god just exists eternally. So the same argument could made against theism "Since god has no purpose, there's no ultimate purpose in a theistic universe"

Again, one may respond with "(1) God gives himself purpose!" or "(2) He has intrinsic purpose!" - First if (1) is true, then the claim "there's no purpose in an atheist universe" becomes false, because man could then assign purpose to himself or the cosmos. Second, (2) is just nonsense. 'intrinsic purpose' is a compete oxymoron. For something to be intrinsic, it must be inherent or 'by its very nature' - How can something be "designed with an intention" by its very nature? Purpose by definition is a quality that is only possible in relation to a mind. If it's a properties is intrinsic, it's not in relation to anything. So the whole idea of 'intrinsic purpose' is  contradictory.

Conclusion: In an atheistic worldview there can be meaning, it's not objective since that's impossible and contradictory. There is no purpose to life or the cosmos, but that's true of a god himself.

 

- By: David Campbell

Wednesday, March 21, 2007

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posted by axiomtek on Monday, December 1, 2008 at 07:53 PM
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posted by Wayfarer on Dec 1, 2008 at 08:14 PM

Good post!  I have been trying for a long time, to get atheist to make a positive statement about their faith.  So many atheist post just seem to be attacks on other religions.  Unfortunately, I don't see your point.  I understand that atheist try to project their own values on the universe ,but that is futile considering to the atheist faith they are a temporary, accidental, phenomenon which the universe will soon forget.  But keep trying. 

posted by dirtyshirt on Dec 1, 2008 at 09:30 PM

Good post. As a thoughtful Catholic I am very sympathetic to Atheists. I actually respect the will that it takes to be an Atheist. I wonder why, however, the jump from doubts about God to doubts about the purpose of the universe. But maybe I'm bastardizing the concept of 'purpose'. I think the explanation of life without a God is an incredible story and requires some sense of a natural order of things, leading in a direction - even if the direction is random. I mean, life appeared on this planet shortly after it was able to. Isn't that important?

Maybe that leads to the question "Does life imply purpose because of its existence?" What did the man mean by the phrase, "I think therefore I am" anyway?

Thanks for pulling me into thoughts and a discussion I haven't fancied since college!

posted by dcs217 on Dec 1, 2008 at 09:39 PM

Who's David Campbell?  --  As a thoughtful Charasmatic I would advise him never to take an enema.  All that would be left of him you could bury in a shoebox. 

posted by mattloch on Dec 1, 2008 at 10:03 PM

Way, the same could be said about your faith as well. You ask two Christians to define their faith and the Universe as they believe it is, and you get two different answers. Just because atheists can't point to a book of fairy tales as old as yours, doesn't mean they're any less "valid" in their beliefs.
 


Spam code: CRABP

posted by Wayfarer on Dec 2, 2008 at 01:00 AM

See what I mean Matt's comment is the usual caliber of atheist thought on these blogs.  He can't say anything positive about his faith and can only attack others.

 

posted by saberhagen on Dec 2, 2008 at 06:34 AM

 

Pine Mountain author and Cal State philosophy instructor, Bill Tomlinson, has written a book on the subject called "The Moral Atheist" which is available through Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc.

In it, Tomlinson mostly focuses on the widely held concept that Atheism and morality are mutually exclusive while touching on the "meaning" of Godless life.

posted by randomfactor on Dec 2, 2008 at 08:14 AM

As a thoughtful Catholic I am very sympathetic to Atheists.

Catholicism is a principal cause of atheists.  As a thoughtful atheist, I am very sympathetic to Catholics.

.

I have been trying for a long time, to get atheist to make a positive statement about their faith.

And we've been trying to tell you for a long time that atheism isn't a faith--it's an absence of same.  But here's a positive statement about atheism:  It appears to coincide with the real world more closely than does theism.

 

posted by Ray_Harwick on Dec 2, 2008 at 11:35 AM

As a thoughtful Catholic I am very sympathetic to Atheists.

Sympathy is a principle cause of Atheists, too.

posted by AudreyB on Dec 2, 2008 at 05:03 PM

Atheism is not founded on faith.  It's founded on surety.

Wayfarer you crack me up with your lack of understanding of what atheism is and isn't.  Your chutzpah to tackle subjects that you have lttle knowledge of is breathtaking.   Your logic reminds me of a computer program I once wrote.  It too went around in circles until it finally made no sense at all.    I can see you're trying to win the hearts and souls of atheists by appealing to their intellect.  But, alas, you should prove the existence of God using tangible evidence before you attempt to prove to atheists why they are incorrect  in their knowledge that he doesn't exist.  The ball has always been in your court.

posted by Wayfarer on Dec 2, 2008 at 05:23 PM

Are you sure about that Audry?  You might want to take a look at my latest post;)

 http://people.bakersfield.c...

posted by possummomma on Dec 2, 2008 at 11:41 PM

Wayfarer, would you consider me an authority of your personal philosophy?  Would I be able to accurately define how and why you hold the beliefs and non-beliefs that you do?  I suspect your answer would be "no".  So, why is it that you think you can claim to know the reasons behind my atheism?  You certainly have never tried understanding it.  Thus, you will never get it.  As Audrey said, you will go around-and-around until you've spun yourself dizzy.   It's very sad.  You have faith in a yet unproven deity, but seem to have no faith in humanity.

posted by dirtyshirt on Dec 3, 2008 at 06:18 AM

Catholicism is a principal cause of atheists.  As a thoughtful atheist, I am very sympathetic to Catholics.

This one made me smile.

Sympathy is a principle cause of Atheists, too.

This one too.

Let me rephrase: 'as a thoughtful Catholic, I have a lot of respect for Atheists.'

I think the prospect of a finite life led well, which Atheists are able to do in the vast majority, is quite an accomplishment. It requires at least as much rigor as theism.

Mine is a family of academics, scientists and business people. I can assure you that just as atheism comes in all stripes, so does theism. That's the nature of thought.

posted by axiomtek on Dec 4, 2008 at 11:41 AM

I dont get it dirtty, why would you respect me and my ideas wheny ou feel they are false and result in hell?


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