I wonder if Billy Carter's gas station is still there?

Talk about quick wit!  To answer you question, I'm not sure, but if Jimmy and Billy were cars, I think, as president, we would have gotten much better gas mileage out of Billy than we did Jimmy. 

That old man needs some one to up his drugs and put him back in the same stupor he was in during his reign in the white house..why do they even bother interviewing his DUMBNESS..they must find his slurred speech and grey hair entertaining

McCain wasn't tortured.  It was just "enhanced interrogation".  Ask any of the guys with SERE training here and they'll tell you.

Carter doesn't need a soul; he's got the Nobel Peace Prize. That means he can do no wrong and anything he says is wise words from a wise man. Ditto Al Gore. Ditto Desmond Tutu. Ditto that Dolly Lama in the Halloween costume. Not nice to suggest Nobel Peace Prize recipients are bunch of jerks.

John McCain's fellow POW in Vietnam and fellow Academy classmate: Phillip Butler on why he won't vote for McCain's and why McCain POW story is stale.  Makes Jimmy Carter look like a McCain fan.

Call it what you will, TomW, it certainly wasn't a night in the Hollywood Renassaince Hotel.  I wonder if some of you McCain torture minimalists and discounters, if given the opportunity to go back and time and trade places with him, would call it torture after being smack dab in the middle of it. 

I do respect Obama and Biden for not going there. 

A lot of their attacks have been unfair, but at least they seem to possess the modicum of decency, class and tact required for not stooping that low in their attacks.   

They also know that the majority of American people, whether Democrats of Republicans, wouldn't tolerate it.  It would have severe consequences at the polls. 

Once again, souixcityranch, you've been the one to bring in the voice of common sense in a wilderness of liberal wackiness. 

There are many countries out there that STILL don't believe in the Geneva Convention as to the rules of war and the treatment of prisoners...What happened to John happened to John some 40 years ago when we we're in someone else's back yard...what would you do IF ' Charlie ' was in your back yard, quite probably the same....

But WE did our bit..without question...and we did it to the best of our ability...no more talk as to what John did..he did what he had to do under the circumstances and to this day I cringe as to what THEY must have endured while in captivity...

You want to blame someone--blame the countries that has developed torture into a science...and thumb their noses at the Geneva Convention during a time of war....

**Rule of thumb** ALWAYS save the last round for YOU...that's what WE we're taught..SIMPER FI....

Doc, McCain voted to change the definition of torture in America.  If you think he's right on the new definition, he wasn't tortured.  If you disagree with McCain on the definition of torture, only then can you be intellectually honest in saying he was tortured.

Under the rules McCain supported, the only thing being tortured here is his logic.

For the record, I DO believe McCain was tortured and in that spirit, there is no way I can support him.

**Rule of thumb** ALWAYS save the last round for YOU...that's what WE we're taught..SEMPER FI....

That might *INDEED* have been for the best for the country in the case under discussion. 

But I hope you don't mind if I corrected your Latin.

Former President Jimmy Carter said that John McCain has been "milking every possible drop of advantage" from his time served as a prisoner of war in Vietnam.

Carter's exactly right.

Were you there, TomW?  How about you, random. Try suggesting your idea, random, to Obama as a talking point, and see how open he is to the idea of adding that to his speeches.  Most Americans wouldn't tolerate that sort of heartless, reckless rhetoric.  

Why ask if were were "there," BLT?  It was just last week, last month, yesterday that McBush milked his POW status.  Of *COURSE* we were "there."  So were you.

His campaign lied about being in a "cone of silence" for the church appearance?  How dare you say that...he was a POW!

He cheated repeatedly on his first wife?  But he was a POW!

He can't keep straight the differences between Iraq and Iran?  But he was a POW!   (Otherwise known as his "POW! POW! POW!" excuse.)

Why not suggest that McBush put into *HIS* speeches the stuff that Rove's been putting out throught his sockpuppets?

Carter is absolutely right.  Again.

Isn't it funny?  I don't see any major player in the Democratic party rallying around him, echoing his sentiments, or offering support for Carter on this cruel insult?  They're smarter than that, they know it would be committing political suicide.

Try asking any of the folks in Obama's inner circle if Carter was right.  They'll distance themselves from him so quickly that you could swear they weren't even aware he was ever the President.  Sadly, and embarrassingly enough, he was. 

Isn't it funny?  When Carter's right--as he is here--he doesn't *NEED* any support.  All McBush has left is the right-wing media bias that's kept his campaign going, and his image as a POW to shield him from his age-caused mistakes.

Carter's doing just fine.  Oh, and Obama thinks he's right too.  So does Biden.  So does Senator Clinton.   The fact that politically *THEY* can't say it on the campaign trail doesn't make it less true.   I just says something sad about American politics.

Others are able to say it out loud and get away with it:

http://www.time.com/time/po...

More importantly, by November it will be patently obvious that McBush *IS* "milking" his POW history (which, let's face it, wasn't all that distinguished) and the American people will realise that it's all he ever had.  That, and a rich wife to help him get around campaign laws that *HE* signed his name to.

Reached for comment, the McBush campaign said "Noun, verb, POW."

Like I said in another thread----time to get into your corners and wait for the bell....the time for mud-slinging and name calling and finger pointing HAS started...may the BEST man win...and I really don't know what political party 'Sarge' was with when his head got blown off...but that was along time ago....

Come on..all the sissy la la's..he was away from his (home) country defending your rights to freedom...screw the degree of torture..it was all torture..just waking up the next day in that hell hole would have been torture....If you cant see that or even try to imagine what it would have been like you need to start working on your unfeeling know it all attitudes QUICK.. I doubt if any one here talkin smack were in his shoes back then that you would have felt you were in a secure..normal ..humanly acceptable situation..none of those guys were no matter the degree of their internment..GEEZUS

Salty Jimmy Carter cruised around as an engineer on nuclear subs and resigned his service early to go home and runt the peanut farm after his fathers demise....what the hell does he know about being a POW?? FREAKIN NOTHING..that short stint probably saved him from turning out like his beer bellied brother Billie..Hay the nuts don't fall very far from the tree..

Dam the hypocrisy of people willing to judge someone when they themselves have never had an experience like McCain went through..Unless that worthy opponent or Joe public has even been there they don't even deserve to wipe his boots..even though some of his co prison buddy's have decided to minimize the experience ..they were all there..I have no respect for a man ripping down his fellow service mans experience to show his was more extreme so he was "THE BETTER SOLDIER" ..or was he?? that right is reserved to those who suffered the ultimate penalty and they aren't here to discuss it..... some things are just better left unsaid..

Come on..all the sissy la la's..he was away from his (home) country defending your rights to freedom...screw the degree of torture..it was all torture..just waking up the next day in that hell hole would have been torture

Not according to McBush himself. 

what the hell does he know about being a POW??

Even if McBush had been a *DISTINGUISHED* POW, which he was not, Carter is right--he's milking it.

you got nothing from my post did you RF.. How long were you a POW??

I have never been a POW, Siouxcity.  How long were you President?  How *DARE* you criticise Carter if you were never President?

.

I'll repeat for the hearing-impaired:  Even if John McBush *HADN'T* collaborated with the North Vietnamese during his imprisonment there during the Vietnam war, even if he *HADN'T* gotten his flying post due to who his father was and not who *HE* was--he's milking that experience to get out of answering tough questions on the campaign trail.  Carter was right...again.

 Blognroll:  Just this very day I described Jimmy (okay, former President Jimmy Carter) to my sisters as "that senile old peanut farmer."  Incidentally, for the edification of anyone reading this, my sisters both adore that senile old peanut farmer.  Perhaps this is about as mean-spirited as anybody could get on this forum, but it would seem to me to be justice with a great, big, old capital "J" to have that senile old peanut farmer spend a few days in the Hanoi Hilton as it existed when John McCain was a "guest."  Perhaps a few days' visit at that very special hostelry would go a long way toward wiping that insipid smile off his barren, uninhabited visage. 

Until I read your blog entry I had no intention of sharing my special name for that particular peanut farmer.  I respect the office he formerly held; however, I find it quite impossible to respect his person or the sentiments he may express.  Rather like the last "Bill" we had as a President, with an intern crawling around under his desk, I respect the office; however, I am not required, nor do I intend, to respect his person.  W. C. Fields in his cups.  It is quite unbelievable, moreover, to believe that Jimmy would have had the stupidity -- or whatever it takes -- to have any human being crawling around under his desk doing anything that might be capable of being done there.  Actually, I cannot decide which one I believe to be worse. 

One thing is clear to me:  Carter is ungrateful and spiteful and more than a little jealous.  And he's a senile old peanut farmer -- my opinion, you understand, to which I am entitled.  I will hold that opinion tomorrow, too, unless some miracle occurs.  I cannot believe he will begin walking on water, although it would appear that he expects to do so any day now.  

 Blognroll:  Just this very day I described Jimmy (okay, former President Jimmy Carter) to my sisters as "that senile old peanut farmer."

I have no doubt you *DID* so describe an incredibly intelligent former nuclear engineer and president, whose grasp of Middle Eastern issues far exceeds those demonstrated by McBush.  In what way would that make him, and not you, wrong?

Just asking.  I'll never make it to be as old as Carter is now, but were I to do so I'd be very happy to be as sharp as that old guy is.

BNR

I don't think you need to question whether Jimmy Carter has a soul.  He's devoted himself to the poor and homeless for 30 years.  What have you done?

Actually your gall is amusing.  You're like an termite shaking his fist at a redwood.   It's going to take a lotta disrepect before you make a dint in that giant.

For the record, I believe McCain served his country faithfully.  I believe he was a POW and I believe he was a tortured while held captive.  Just from the things I've read about him, he seems like a remarkable man, and that's NOT just the things about him being a POW.  I'd invite him over for dinner any day of the week (like he'd come!) and probably have one of the most interesting dinner conversations of my life.

But I'm not voting for him, and it's my right and duty as an American citizen to vote my conscience.  Anyone who doesn't is an idiot.

Oh, and your song, like all the others, is unintentionally funny.

Hey...whatever guys...we ALL did our bit when the occasion came up...we are crying over 'spilled milk'....time to learn from our mistakes and move forward...remember me...' NONE OF THE ABOVE '...I've heard TOO many promises and seen NO results...so which one is going to pull that magic rabbit out of his hat and cure the nation's ills---which one has that magic pill that's going to make everything right in 4 years......the dice is rolling folks....I don't care...heck..I've haven't worked since 25 July 2006...and I still don't know how to speak Spanish...'you know'...but who cares...my life revolves around saving another from cancer...and it takes all of our time...even if I did work,I would have to quit..I'm the one that's driver..scheduler..medication giver..bather...cook...housekeeper...and I wouldn't trade places for no amount of money...WE are in a different kind of fight...and failure is not an option...THAT'S MY HEART.....let the 2 politicians fight over the same bone...results are not going to happen overnight......

P.S.----Pardon my Latin ~ Matt~

I don't think Jimmy Carter has a soul.  Like me, he does just fine having a mind instead.

Spoken like a true realist, Ling.  In actuality, I think what everyone seems to be doing is relying too much on this election.  Maybe we're all suffering from the "idealism" bug.  A LOT of work needs to be done to get this country back on its feet, by congress and the senate and the president, and it's won't happen overnight, no matter WHO gets elected.

Most of the time I'd have not minded the Latin misspelling, Ling, but it formed a pun which *SERIOUSLY* undercut what you were trying to say. :)

RF... I have never been a POW, Siouxcity.  How long were you President?  How *DARE* you criticise Carter if you were never President?
 

 Wow you got me there RF..NOT!! ...DARE I??  I most certainly do...Carter was a public servant..note the word 'WAS" ...I am not..he set himself in the position for me to critisize his actions by getting into politics..his BS of belittling another fellow american for his partys political gain makes me wanna gag.... he has no real idea what imprisonment was like nor what actually went on via a personnel eye witness account soooo time for him to take his teeth out and ZIP IT....

I respect him because he was our President..but thats as far as it goes..Im glad to hear you atleast felt his term wasnt a HUGE waste ..not many of your kind out there....we were just lucky he was nominated when he was and the country wasnt in dire straights..or we would all be worse off than we are now..

Ling...   your post shows merit.. and I appreciate what you were trying to say..HOWEVER..JK *grin*

Doc, you don't seem to get it: McCain voted to change the definition of the word "torture".

If you agree with John McCain on torture, you believe John McCain wasn't tortured.

You obviously believe that America tortures people.  We can talk about whether or not torture is right, but at least we can agree that John McCain supports torturing people who aren't him.

You're talking about what you regard as an inconsistency in John McCain.  Jimmy Carter was not addressing the subject of John McCain's views on what is, and what is not torture, or on any particular inconsistency in John McCain's behavior.  He was suggesting that John McCain was exploiting his own miliitary history, one marked by severe trauma, for  political gain.  It's a separate issue.  I would suggest posting a blog on that subject.  

Sure, Doc, except for the part where you say his history is marked by severe trauma.  It goes to the heart of the issue.  McCain was a POW who wasn't tortured under the definition that he voted for.  Everything that happened to him while he was a POW is OK for the USA to do.

The question of whether McCain is overplaying his experience depends directly on how bad that experience was.  If he had been tortured under his definition of torture, he'd get a lot more credibility.

We could argue about what the definition of torture is, and whether or not what he suffered does or does not fit under that definition, but that's not really the topic I've introduced here.  The topic is what Jimmy Carter said about McCain and whether or not it was appropriate for someone in his position to say at this time.

Jimmy Carter said McCain is "milking every possible drop of advantage".  This goes to the question of how much advantage can McCain milk.  I'm not arguing what the definition of torture is.  Right now, there are two: One that is held by McCain and Bush; and the other held by most of the civilized world.

If McCain was tortured, he has more leeway.  If he wasn't, he has less.

You start the blog saying that McCain's service is being denigrated.  I'm asking that we establish what his record was before we argue whether that service is being denigrated.  It seems to some that McCain has even falsified stories in interviews because those stories sound so much like other people's stories and McCain has only recently begun to tell them.  That in and of itself would seem to denigrate his actual service as well and maybe he's allowed to, but let's at least establish as far as we can an impartial baseline as to what we are judging.

This is cynicism at it's very worst and at its ugliest.

If you don't trust McCain, and if you trust Jimmy Carter, then getting into this is just going to go around in circles.  I'm not going to put his suffering under the microscope. 

Can we agree he suffered?  Look at his face.  Look at his body.  Is this the face, and is this the body, of somebody that hasn't been seriously injured and mutilated?  Are you suggesting he's faking everyting?  Are you suggesting that perhaps he was in a car accident, and that he's hiding the accident to make us believe he was tortured?

Would you be willing to challenge him on the extent of his suffering face-to-face? 

I'm going to join most Americans, including those running on the Democratic ticket in simply giving McCain the benefit of the doubt.  In my opinion, it's the only humane thing to do. 

 blognroll:  To remember that I voted for a senile old peanut farmer is an embarrassment.  The only saving grace was that at the time, at any rate, I did not believe him to have been senile.  And if my memory serves me correctly, he was quite proud of being "just a peanut farmer."  As well he should.  Lawful labor can be its own reward.  At the time, I was certain he would be elected.  He was -- with my help and the help of millions like me. 

Unfortunately, for all his apparently being an expert in the field of the Middle East, it got him -- and the nation -- nowhere.  It took an actor to free the American hostages who had been held in Iran for over 400 days, and anybody can see how well the brokering of peace worked between the Arabs and the Jews.  Long-lasting, too.  What -- about as long as it took to shake hands and grin?

Jimmy wants to be known as a peace-maker.  A little boy, who was dying of aids and who had been befriended by Jimmy, had described him thus, and I believe it pleased Jimmy to no end.  It does seem that Jimmy wanted to bring peace, that he worked toward that end, but in the last analysis he simply wasn't a "closer."  More's the pity. 

Also, as AudreyB has pointed out, Jimmy has been generous with his time and physical efforts on behalf of Habitat for Humanity.  That is no little thing.  I believe it stirred the conscience of many to emulate him, and that's a good thing. 

However, to denigrate the experiences of any other human being as a prisoner of war in war-time is simply taking a cheap shot.  In my opinion it would be similar to taking cheap shots at the American hostages held in Iran; also in my opinion I hardly think it would ever occur even to Jimmy to do so.  Therefore I must question his motives with respect to McCain.  Maybe he's not so senile after all.  Just jealous, spiteful and ungracious -- which he's entitled to be because of people who fought and died so that he could have the freedom to be that way. 

Doc, if you read closely, I have said I believe McCain was tortured.  If you agree with me on that then you also believe McCain is wrong in his definition of torture.

I'd be happy to challenge him to his face on his definition of torture.  Would you?

John McCain is denigrating not just his own experience as a POW, but the suffering of all those who have been subjected to institutional torture by using it as a shield.

It is the worst sort of political cynicism to say that he can get a pass on anything by invoking his experience 40 years ago.

I'm sorry, TomW, I do not feel like discussing that topic today. You seem eager to discuss the topic of what constitutes torture.  It might be good to start a new blog for that purpose.  Other topics that might be interesting include, but are not limited to the following: 

Does evil exist?  Does America have real enemies?  Do folks out there in other countries really want to harm American citizens, including you and me? All are interesting subjects, but if I wanted to discuss them today, I would have raised these questions in this blog post.  

As for the topic introduced here, the topic of Jimmy Carter's comments regarding McCain, I think you said it better than I ever could, ALICEN. 

It really is a blessing that we have a government that encourages and sanctions hair-splitting.

Especially when they think it'll protect them from war-crimes prosecution.

 blognroll:  Thank you for your comment. 

bnr~ I believe he was  tortured,under extreme duress,under conditions none can imagine here. That's why I want to know his PTS status~ we have a right to know how he stands there,how he handles anger and stress~ hand on the button. I have already said I know why God does not give me a bazooka, McCain needs to answer that question.

As to a soul~ you had best believe he does if you want one

And yet McBush thinks the North Vietnamese were legally justified in doing so.

His violent temper *IS* known far and wide, but maybe that's just one of the signs of the brainwashing.

Did I miss it or didn't Kerry play up his military service during his campaign?

Regardless of the definition of torture, McCain coming back with a damaged arm and assorted injuries sounds to me that the "Hanoi Hilton" had pretty lousy guest services.

No, he didn't.  I wish he had. His sole "play up" was the cheesy "reporting for duty" thing at the convention.

He most especially did *NOT* say, at any time, that he shouldn't have to answer press questions about his honesty *BECAUSE* he served in Vietnam, that he shouldn't be asked how many houses he had becuase of his service in Vietnam, or that he should be elected President *BECAUSE* of his service in Vietnam.

.

sounds to me that the "Hanoi Hilton" had pretty lousy guest services.

I guess that depends on just *HOW* friendly you got with the bellhops, Nancy.

Too bad he didn't have any money to tip the bellhops, they might have treated him better.  A list of the Green Bay Packers probably didn't get him much in the way of amenities.

I'd love to see McCain's military records unredacted. There's way too much blacked out of what is out there. The Packers story is quaint, but after hearing about the cross in the sand story, who knows if it's really true or not.