If analogies are what ever it takes for you to have faith then have at it................If it works for you then that's all that matters.... 

In other words, God is not omnipresent, that is, not present everywhere?

To answer the question: No. Grow up, there is no God. Move away from mythology and fairy tales and make the world a better place. As for the absolutely ridiculous idea that "evil" is the absence of "God", what about the evil perpetrated by those who believe in, and are claiming to represent "God."

So, when the "Holy" church was enslaving, torturing, and killing indigenous peoples up and down California because they refused to put on clothes and accept "God", that was OK? It was certainly done in the full presence and approval of "God" How about the Spanish Inquisition? Was that not done by the "Holy" church in the name of "God"? So, that was not evil at all, hmmm?

But wait a minute. Isn't "God" omniscient? Isn't he all things? Isn't he everywhere all the time, knowing all that was and all that will be? Well, if you actually know anything, the answer would be yes. So, how then could any "evil" happen in the "absence" of "God". Well, it could not, now could it? So, the conclusion we have to come to is that "God" is, by definition, "evil". If not evil, then extremely complicit in evil events, and apparently, he enjoys them. Makes sense, since that is how the radical Christians behave. Admit it. You right wing Christians really want to shoot me, don't you...yes...embrace your anger, feel the hatred bubbling up from deep within you...feel the desire force your beliefs on everyone else...yessss, feel the evil........

  I saw the above at my doctor's office and said I liked it and the receptionist gave me a copy. I, like Appollo, thought of the omnipresence of God when I read it.  He says, "If you make your bed in hell, I'm there with you." Maybe the tern "manifested presence" would be better.

   Whatever, it's food for thought. 

So, when the "Holy" church was enslaving, torturing, and killing indigenous peoples up and down California because they refused to put on clothes and accept "God", that was OK? It was certainly done in the full presence and approval of "God" How about the Spanish Inquisition? Was that not done by the "Holy" church in the name of "God"? So, that was not evil at all, hmmm?

AMEN! Millions have been murdered in the country in the name of Christianity!

God created the angels and man with free choice.  Some angels used that choice to worship themselves and by falling into the sin of pride they became evil.  Man by his own disobedience brought evil to the rest of creation.  God created everything good.  It was elements of creation who misused God's gifts to become evil.  For an in depth and theologically correct look into how evil came into the world and the true nature of hell follow this link:  http://www.zephyr.gr/stjohn... and click on to River of Fire.

"God created everything good." Oh, I see. Like Ebola, that's good. Or, perhaps tornadoes, those are good too. Oh, wait, did he create cancer? Yea, that's a real good one. So, let me ask you this: If you created a product that you knew was defective and would kill lots of innocent people, yet you marketed and sold it anyway, would that be a moral thing to do, based on your God's morality? Probably not.

Your God is omniscient, right? He knows everything that ever was and ever shall be, right? So when he created these "angels", he knew full well that they would "turn against him" and become defective, if you will, causing death and misery, or all the "bad" things, as you say. So, based on your own God's morals, he is anything but. In fact, based on what he "created", he's worse than Dick Cheney! Now that's evil!

That's right, feel the hate bubbling up...feel the need to destroy the unbeliever...the infidel...embrace the anger within you...strike out in the name of God, he wants you to...doesn't he?

bakersfieldbubble and nudebeaches ---   

So, when the "Holy" church was enslaving, torturing, and killing indigenous peoples up and down California because they refused to put on clothes and accept "God", that was OK? It was certainly done in the full presence and approval of "God" How about the Spanish Inquisition? Was that not done by the "Holy" church in the name of "God"? So, that was not evil at all, hmmm?

    That was not the "Holy" church. She was in fact a victim of these demonic attacks. How many were tortured and burnt at the stake for refusing to submit to man's authority. Satan has infiltrated the "church" and turned the world against her. Don't be one of the deceived. 

"Satan has infiltrated the "church" and turned the world against her. Don't be one of the deceived."

That's interesting, Dcs.  As you're highly aware, I am not a Christian, but if I were to look for examples of Satan infiltrating the church and turning the world against it, I would say that the renewed, resurgent judgmentalism and self-righteousness that we see today in your God's name is having enormous success in turning the world against the Christian church.

I am not saying that you are self-righteous and arrogant, but a lot of people are lately.

I don't waste my time with them here.  It is better in the long term instead to just present my own beliefs as an alternative for anyone who finds light in them.

Oh, here we go with the "demonic attacks" rhetoric. Your God created the demons in the first place. He sits up there giggling as people are slaughtered, does he? Or is he too weak and powerless to do anything to stop those awful old demons. What a load of poop. People are responsible for what goes on, not some farcical being floating around in space. People should be held responsible for their actions, not some mythical demons. Don't blame demons for what the church (religious beliefs of all kinds) have done. Blame the weak minded sheep who follow the orders of bad people. God, demons, holy avacados, cosmic muffins, believe what ever you want, but don't blame anyone but people for evil.

That's right, feel the anger flowing through you...feel the hate...strike down the unbeliever...

To quote ApolloDawn "It is better in the long term instead to just present my own beliefs as an alternative for anyone who finds light in them."

That is what I wish people would do. That would be great. Unfortunately, I see Christian religious zealots invading our government and attempting to force their religious "morals" on everyone else. Live and let live. As long as one is not threatening your life or liberty or safety, leave them alone.

Appollo/ H8  --   I really dislike the term "Christian Right".  A nation can only change from within..... just like a man.  The church should not be about forcing morality. Morality comes with Jesus, not before. 

  Issues come up, we talk about them , and it's going to appear (and many times is) judgemental. It's a fundamental difference in our world view. But we should remember that we Christians are the "aliens", the "peculiar people", and will remain so untill Jesus the Christ returns.

One little Question.  Who is making judgemental remarks here and who is trying to force there religion on someone here;)

First of all, this is an expression of opinions, ideas and beliefs. Secondly, it's fun. I enjoy a spirited debate about religion. Unfortunately, I never get answers to the questions I present. It always ends up with 'faith" and "God's will" kinds of comments, not logical arguments disputing the non-existence of God. Too bad.

I respect those who have religious faiths and beliefs, as long as they respect my right not to.

O.K. H8cloz present a logical argument proving the non-existence of God.;)

I just saw this quote that seems fitting to the question of good and evil.       &n bsp;       &nb sp;       &nbs p;         ;                 & nbsp;       &n bsp;       &nb sp;       &nbs p;         ;                 & nbsp;       &n bsp;       &nb sp;       &nbs p;         ;                 & nbsp;       &n bsp;       &nb sp;       &nbs p;         ;                 & nbsp;       &n bsp;       &nb sp;        Wickedness, when you examine it, turns out to be the pursuit of some good in the wrong way. You can be good for the mere sake of goodness; you cannot be bad for the mere sake of badness. You can do a kind action when you are not feeling kind and when it gives you no pleasure, simply because kindness is right; but no one ever did a cruel action simply because cruelty was wrong—only because cruelty was pleasant or useful to him. In other words, badness cannot succeed even in being bad in the same way in which goodness is good. Goodness is, so to speak, itself; badness is only spoiled goodness.…Evil is a parasite, not an original thing.

Did it already. See the posts above. But, there is another tack:

You are the CEO of a large corporation that makes cars. One of your engineers comes to you and says, "Sir, we have discovered a flaw in one of our vehicle production runs that could be deadly. If it goes to the retailers, there will most certainly be deaths as a result. It will cost too much to fix the problem. What should we do?

Your answer, because you are a good person, would be to scrap them or fix them, but we will never sell them until they're corrected. Right? That would be the moral thing to do. Right? Morality, for you, based on your religious beliefs. What would Jesus do, and so on.

But, for a moment, lets assume you are a bad person. You tell your engineer, "I don't care if people are killed or disfigured because of this car's problems. Put a different badge on them, sell them under a different name and never mention this again. Our profits will be greater than the losses due to claims and law suits. After all, it's the car buyers fault anyway, he has free will to buy whatever car he wants. If he chooses one of the good ones, great, if he goes with a bad one, so what? It will be a test to see if they really have faith in our products."

Now, would you consider this the moral thing to do? Would God do this? Would God approve of this?

So, you understand that God is said to be omniscient, right? And you understand what omniscient means, right? You also understand that God is said to know everything that ever was and everything that ever will be, right? You do believe that God created everything in the universe, right?

So, same situation for God. He knew a hundred billion zillion bigillion years before he "created" the angels that some would turn against him, and ultimately cause all of this demon hibbery jibbery and such. He knew about every little bitty baby being killed by some demonic plot, mass deaths due to your "demon invasion" of churches and all other manner of "evils" created as a result of his actions. He was well aware of everything that would happen after he created these "angels", and yet he did so anyway, presumably as a "test" to see who would go with him, and who would go with them (although, he already knew the results bagillions of years before he did this).

The conclusions from this are the following: 1. God is a complete and utterly sick, twisted and unethical idiot who should be put away, just as the CEO in the above example should be, or; 2. God is not in fact omniscient, nor is he all knowing and could not have created anything because he doesn't really exist.

I pick number 2. Fairy tales handed down and built upon over centuries by people struggling to understand the world around them have resulted in what you now think is a real being. Never mind the fact that there are billions of other people who think your idea of God and religion is wrong, and theirs is right. Are they right? Are you right?

Now, you PROVE to me that God DOES exist without giving me the "you have to have faith", and "you just have to believe" crap.

Sorry H8 but we agreed to a logical argument proving the nonexistence of God.  Your posting is your projection of your fears on to the universe.  Try reading the suggested link 

 http://www.zephyr.gr/stjohn... and click on to River of Fire.

Which will not only give a better picture of reality ,help you understand how you came about some of your fears and your projection of them unto Christians;)

See, my point exactly. No answers, just more hibbery jibbery.

There is no way to prove or disprove the existance of God and it's foolish to continue to argue about it.  Believing in God is an act of faith.  No more, no less.

Awww, come on mom...do we have to get out of the pool now, we were just starting to have fun?

We don't need to disprove the existence of god.  The burden of proof is on the other side.  And there exists no proof that isn't wishful thinking.

Yes indeed. If this were in court, the "God does exist" case would lose badly. Yet, you have to "swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God" Ironic, isn't it. One arguing on the God exists side would be committing perjury.

However, from the argument presented in the original post, it would logically follow that Satan is a figment of folks' imaginations, just as there is no "Jack Frost" to bring on winter. 

Now, if folks feel the need to have a "Satan" to blame their own shortcomings on, they logically must also believe that god created such a being as a respository for evil.  And if "Satan" is to blame for evil, he must therefore have the power to exclude god from certain areas or certain activities--and therefore is the stronger of the two.

No Jack Frost? Say it ain't so! Next you'll tell me there's no Sandy Claws. Hibbery Jibbery. It never ceases to amaze me how religious folks simply can't offer up any meaningful arguments to support their beliefs, and always fall back on the "faith" defense. You just have to believe...and if you don't, somehow you're lost to them. Funny how that works.

You promised a logical argument H8?  Are you not true to your word or must you concede that your attacks are nothing but "Hibbery Jibbery"  Nancy that is the point of the challenge.  To show that atheism is based on faith that God doesn't exist and has it's own myths like all non atheist are ignorant, only people of non atheist faith have ever committed mass murders in the name of there beliefs, and atheist are rational, logical people.  I have shown this to Random and if he doesn't accept rational arguments then why bother wasting time with him.  Just delete and move on to something constructive.  But then you get a newbie come in with the same old tripe and you have to make a little effort ,but you don't want to waste your whole life in vain arguments.  All well such is life:D  

Logic: The science or art of exact reasoning, or of pure and formal thought, or of the laws according to which the processes of pure thinking should be conducted; the science of the formation and application of general notions; the science of generalization, judgment, classification, reasoning, and systematic arrangement; correct reasoning.

First, I'm not a "newbe". This is typical for you christians to get upset when someone challenges the existence of your god, and so you start calling people names.

Second, you have failed to address the arguments posted above. Again, typical christian behavior. Just argue without actually saying anything. That is hibbery jibbery. Just keep blathering along, but don't answer the question or address the thought.

Third, Atheism is not a faith. You can't have faith in something you don't believe. No, atheists do not think that religious people are ignorant. We choose not to believe in a god. I think you have proved to be a typical christian.  The vile hatred of people who do not share your religious beliefs is glaring.

By the way, the existence of God is not logical.

So show us "logically" why God's existence is not logical or stop wasting peoples time. 

Typical christian. Why don't you read the previous posts and give us all some answers rather than blabbing on and on about "projected fears" and so on. Can't do it, can you?

   The heavens are telling of the Glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.   Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night it reveals knowledge.  (Psalm 19)

   But now ask the beasts and let them teach you; and  the birds of the heavens and let them tell you.   Or speak to the earth, and let it teach you; and let the fish of the sea declare to you.

   Who among all these does not know that the hand of the Lord has done this, in whose hand is the life of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind? (Job 12)

Well put dcs and h8 I gave you a link with relevant answers twice.  What else can I do?  You can lead a rabid horse to water ,but you can't make them drink even if they are about to die of dehydration.

DCS, physics tells us there are natural laws governing all those things and no sign at all of divine intervention.  But believe what you will--just don't expect the rest of us to go along with your mythology.

Just got back from BC, fireworks show was OK this year, but no ground show for some reason...Anyway, Wayfarer and DCS, you and I will never see eye to eye on this subject. Your "explanations" to my arguments and observations about the existence of God do nothing for me. All fantasy and fairy tales. I would love to have this conversation with you face to face over a beer or two, but sadly, that will never happen.

H8  --  maybe someday - at a bloggers get together..... but no beer for me.

Love to do so myself H8 and with Random.  People achieve a lot more face to face.  Why don't we go ahead and make an appointment to do so? 

Wayfarer  -- never been much of a masochist - but..... why not. 

I like to see this kind of other-cheek-turning.  Well done, you guys.

Breaking bread together would probably be good for all of us--just make sure that bread has cheese and pepperoni on it.  : )

I'm game.

But no smiting.

Excellent, Random!  See?  Your sense of humor alone would be reason enough to hang out with you.  My suspicion is that everybody likes you--even your potential smiters.

And did anyone read Valerie Schultz's column this morning?  Excellent column, excellent woman.

I read it just now.  Very good indeed.

CatherineBaker

Excellent, Random!  See?  Your sense of humor alone would be reason enough to hang out with you.  My suspicion is that everybody likes you--even your potential smiters.

Amen  -- He's mean but he's fair... he's mean to everybody.  ...... I'm always game for pizza.