Oh~ That Joe ,for a moment I thought the sheriff was losing it ;-)

I read this morning that Sam(Joe) was angry at "the media" for invading his private life but was planning on making appearances with McCain.That should stop the scrutiny,not.

McCain didn't even check if his posterboy for the middle class was a licenced plumber!?!  That's great! 

McBush is lucky the guy's a citizen, I guess--although he still can't vote, at least according to Republican strategy.

Doesn't have a license? He's just following conservative doctrine by being against government regulation, that all.

And probably labor laws as well, and environmental protection, worksite safety...

jfrancais, I guess that is what all those illegal aliens are. Conservatives! They don't even have a drivers license to get to the job they are unlicensed to do, taking said job from a legal citizen. Wow Gube, you missed the boat on that one.

I'm sure you'll find it on one of his 300+ posts on his illegal immigrant blog.

S'cuse me folks but I don't see anywhere in the dictionary under plumber where it say you have to have a license to BE one.  That's a state requirement fo jobs over a certain amount  (in CA anyway) and journeyman is a union term not a definition of a plumber.

Are you guys STILL pilloring him because McCain brought him into the picture?  I looked at his state and did NOT see where an employee of a company has to be licensed.  They work under the license of their employer...and unless you know exactly waht happened and were there, you don't know that "Joe" didn't know his boss wasn't licensed.  You work on plumbing for a living...you're a plumber.

Whree's TomW?  He is in the business and could probably tell you.

"But the county Wurzelbacher and his employer live in, Lucas County, requires plumbers to have licenses. Neither Wurzelbacher nor his employer are licensed there, said Cheryl Schimming of Lucas County Building Regulations, which handles plumber licenses in parts of the county outside Toledo. " Read the rest here

Um, whether or not he was a "licensed plumber" is irrelevant here. "Joe the plumber (or not)" isn't the one running for office-Obama is. "Joe" asked a question. Regardless of what he does for a living or not, he is a citizen of the United States and had every right to ask a candidate who came to HIS neighborhood a question. Why do we ream people like him and say people who are actually close to the candidates need to be left alone? I don't get it. Liberal reasoning: "Let's get this guy! Let's find out all about him and camp out at his house so he can't work anymore!" And why is this happening? Because he NAILED Obama by asking a question that Barack Hussein (Don't hate me for using his name..I didn't give it to him.) Obama actually answered honestly, revealing his Socialist agenda.

Last time I checked, Socialism is not something to be desired. That is, unless you're one of those in power.

 The thing about plumber Joe is the way he asked Obama the question........He said that he was about to by his boss's plumbing company.............He lied and he gave false information claiming to do and be things he wasn't.....If he would have said Mr Obama I have a hypothetical question non of this criticism would be going on. Remember McCain is the one that brought ''Joe '' into the lime light.............McCain should have researched plumber Joe before he forced him on to the national scene.................Also plumber Joe does not represent middle America..........McCain needs to apologize to Joe for making him a laughing stock....................

 *edit* My response was in reference to the questioning of a need for a licenses in Sam's (Joe) job.

Another good op-ed piece by Paul Krugman here  ,it is called "The Real Plumbers of Ohio" .

Plumber Joe will probably be laughing all the way to the bank when this is said and done. Money well earned I might add. While having your character torn apart you may as well ride the wave. Fitting name to pick! Your average Joe...Your probably right in that he should have said his question was hypothetical, but he didn't. I'm sure he learned a lesson. People can be vicious!

Last time I checked, Socialism is not something to be desired.

As a rule of thumb, anytime someone begins a sentence with "Last time I checked," the rest of the sentence can safely be assumed to be false. 

Plumber Joe will probably be laughing all the way to the bank

Only if Obama wins.

"Let's get this guy! Let's find out all about him and camp out at his house so he can't work anymore!"

Obama's supporters are nervous about election day, otherwise they wouldn't be so scared of Joe the plumber.

rf, do you really not get anything I say? Do you think he is making the rounds on all those television shows for free? Come on now! It don't matter who wins, pertaining to what I said.

Scared?  The guy's given us some of our best laughs in weeks.  Him and Caribou Barbie.

Do you think he is making the rounds on all those television shows for free?

He'll keep more of the money if Obama wins.  McBush will tax it away.

I don't think he's being paid for news appearances--talkshows, not so much.  He better keep it, he ain't buying any plumbing businesses in the near future.

It is a lesson for everyone.  If you embarrass The Messiah, you will be destroyed.  The guy asked a question, Osama made an ASS of himself with his Marxist like answer.  It then took only 24 hours for the main stream media to turn it into a referendum on "Joe the Plumber" to distract everyones attention from the real news that was the Manchild's "spread the wealth around" comment.  BTW, Joe is his middle name and unlike Hussein, he is not ashamed of it.

I come from a family of skilled tradesmen.  Apprentice and Journeyman are not union terms.  They are designations of  training and education.

Anyone with a wrench can call themselves a plumber but that doesn not make them one.  REAL plumbers have to go through  the apprenticeship  program and work under journrymen plumbers  for 2 to 4 years.  They also attend classes at night for the first two years.  Each time they learn a new skill they obtain a higher designation of apprentice.  Then, before they can call themselves a journeyman they have to pass a test.

Joe the plumber is no more a plumber because he has a wrench than I am a surgeion because I own a knife.. 

If Joe wants to own a plumbing business one day, he needs to go through the apprenticeship program and then get a contractors license (more training).  Then he can apply for a business license.

He's a long way from needing to worry about making $250,000 or hiring anyone else.

Scared?  The guy's given us some of our best laughs in weeks.  Him and Caribou Barbie.

No one expects you to admit to it.

Joe the plumber is no more a plumber because he has a wrench than I am a surgeion because I own a knife.

That's absolute nonsense. Joe can actually perform many facets of the plumbing trade. You couldn't make a proper incision to save your life.

It's because Joe the Plant, um. "Plumber" was so obviously a plant that media curiosity is well justified. He was a textbook definition of a shill, made to appear like a stranger but actually part of the act.

" Joe the plant."  You mean to tell me that the Republicans used some sort of star wars style "force" to convince Osama to visit Joe's neighborhood, stop in front of Joe's house, allow Joe to ask a question, and then give an answer he didn't really mean?

No. The "plants" are the main stream media that is more than willing to dig up dirt on Joe within 24 hours of Barry's embarrassing answer while in the last 2 years have done absolutely no investigating into Obama's relationships with unrepentant terrorists.

Hey, I'm just trying to best you in the paranoia department. Looks like I still need practice.

Well, we'll let the comments stand on their merits.

There are a lot of things obama hasn't answered.  You see, he doesn't feel it's necessary and the media is giving him a pass.  We propably know moreabout the plumber than we know about obama.

For the record, NONE of the housing tracts or apartment complexes we wired were union jobs nor did they use union labor.  There wasn't a journeyman or an apprentice in the lot.  This included Kern and Los Angeles counties.  If you go to a housing tract today you won't be able to speak with most of the men on the job because most of them don't speak English and you can bet they are NOT licensed.    Scary thought but a true one.  Not all contractors go through  journeyman and apprenticeship.  The tradesmen I knew learned on the job under a licensed contractor.   THEY were not licensed.

They were framers, plumbers, electicians, roofers, dry wallers.  Some skilled, some not so skilled.

I'm only going thrrough this again because my husband was an electrical contractor licensed by the state and he did not go through a journeyman/apprentice program.  He worked for a licensed contractor on the side then went through a school (if you can call it that) where they basically taught them codes.  He already knew the electrical side by then.

For this purpose I'm talking about California and to my knowledge no county sets it's own restrictions as to who has to be licensed and who doesn't.  If it''' different in NJ so be it but I didn't find it to be different when I looked it up.

And for the umpteenth time ...Why do you care?  He is NOT running for office.  Laugh yourselves til your sides split.  This guy is making money off your giggles.

I'm sure Obama will be crushed. After all his goal in life was to graduate Harvard and make tons of money as a community organizer.

Btw, Joe(Sam) did lie. His "business" doesn't make "$250...70-80,000/year".

Just to be clear, there's answers you want to hear and answers you actually get. Just because the answers are the later does not mean the question was unanswered. Thought I'd point that out since it seems several people are forgetting that of late.

Schwain, I'm not sure what you mean.  How can a question, even if answered later, be unanswered?  There are questions obama has never answered yet  so they remain unanswered.

Nancy what questions wont Obama answer ?

My Brother in Law was the top man of the local carpenters union for 30 years.  Business Agent.   He taught the apprentices for most of that time at Bakersfield College.  Most of his brothers and one of my brothers are journeyman carpenters.  One of his brothers is also a contractor.

They travel far and wide to find jobs that pay prevailing wage.  Why?  Because the "so called" carpenters, plumbers and electricians alluded to above have taken over the skilled tradesman jobs and are largely responsible for the crappy houses being built in Bakersfield today.    Most of these unskilled tradesmen are from Mexico and most of them never held a hammer, wrench or wire stripper in their lives until they were hired to build your house.   It comes under the heading of "you get what you pay for'.

People can indeed become contractors without first becoming journeymen.  But, it takes years of working with journeymen to learn the skills that those journeymen learned as apprentices.  In any case, they have to pass the state test.

If Joe the plumber wants to better himself, he would be wise to vote for Obama.  Obama wants to start rebuilding America's crumbling infrastructure as one part of his economic stimulus plan.  Joe could work long enough to actually learn the skills that he currently takes credit for.

Why, when as recent as 3 years ago obama was in contact by phone and email with Ayers, did he lie about it and keep trying to divert by saying he was 8 when Ayers was a domestic terrorist.  Unrepentent of course.  Have you looked into any of his books?  It's not so much that he associated it's that he lied over and over about it and only admitted ibts of it as it became publically known

Did obama ever release medical records?  No?  Why not?  Long time smoker, family history of cancer but no records?

There are a lot of things  he's been asked but not answered.  Maybe trivial to some, important to others but why aren't they made public.  McCains medical records were demanded. why not obamas?

Why such a cheapskate on charity before he became a presidential candidate?  Why start wearing the flag pin only AFTER called on it.  If it had been me I'd have told why I didn't wear it and continued to NOT wear one..I'd have respected that.

That' s off the top of my head...I'm not up to digging around this morning.  As I said these things may be trivial but to me  they show a lack of honesty and and being forthcoming. 

Nancy, I could make a similar list for both Palin and McBush with similar cheap shots.  Why won't Palin release her medical records, for example--is it because of the abortions?   Why don't we see the psych evaluations on McBush showing the damage the Communist brainwashing did over those five years?

Do you *REALLY* want to lose this election from way down there in the gutter, or would you rather lose with some measure of dignity remaining?

Obama's medical record summary:

http://blogs.suntimes.com/s...

I'm sure he'd release the whole thing right after McBush does.

Origin of the title "journeyman"

The word 'journeyman' comes from the French word journée, meaning the period of one day; this refers to his right to charge a fee for each day's work.

Apprenticeship

History

Apprenticeships last usually from three to four years. In the U.S. apprenticeships in metalworking include Tool & Die Maker, Machinist, Model-Maker, Sheet-Metal, Foundry and Gear-cutting. Other related fields include Electrician, Plumber, and Drafting. The peak years for American apprenticeships were 1930-1981, during which time companies found it useful to employ the maximum-allowed apprentices, one for every six or eight journeymen (depending upon the State). In the early-1980 recession most companies cut their apprenticeship programs and did not restore them when conditions improved. Tool and Die Makers are highly skilled workers in the manufacturing industry. ... A machinist is a craftsman who uses machine tools to make parts or alter parts by cutting away excess material. ...
 

Modern apprenticeships

Currently, the concept of apprenticeship varies by country.   Traditionally, an apprentice will work under the guidance of a person who has earned the title of "master" in their field, and under the guidance of other journeymen. This apprenticeship is a combination of working and learning. Apprenticeship lasts usually three to five years, ending upon exams (written and hands on) and other requirements (classroom hours plus hours in the field) by the certifying agency having been met. Institutions providing exams and approval also vary widely by location, given by governments, unions, or educational institutions. Once the apprenticeship is completed, the individual is granted Journeyman status, and issued documents (diplomas, certificates of achievement, licenses from state or local jurisdictions) that certify him as a journeyman. A union (labor union in American English; trade union, sometimes trades union, in British English; either labour union or trade union in Canadian English) is a legal entity consisting of employees or workers having a common interest, such as all the assembly workers for one employer, or all the workers... Technical school is a term used for two-year colleges which provide mostly job-preparation skills for trained labor, such as welding, culinary arts and office management. ...
 

Journeyman

A man or woman who has completed the traditional live-in apprenticeship could consider him/herself a journeyman, as could a man or woman who is educated in his field and passed a board certified test. In the United States, the requirements for a journeyman's license are set by each state.^{[citation needed]} In the United States, employment as an electrician usually requires that a person holds a state license as a master or journeyman. However, other professions where journeymen status is applicable such as contracting or plumbing, an equivalent amount of work and scholarly experience are just as desirable to an employer.

I didn't allude to shoddy workers above.  I come right out and say it.  My experiences are from 23 years ago when the guys on the jobs we were contracted to were good hard working and dilligent or they didn't get to continue.  My ex used to have to go out on repair jobs of houses where the general hired unqualified sub contractors.  Just because a sub didn't go though the apprenticeship/joourneyman programs doens't mean they aren't knowlegeable and competand in their trade.  We didn't have the problem of undocumaneted workers in the trade back then.  You could walk on any job site and talk with anyone working.  When the grandkids bought thier house last year they went out all during construction and once, when dry walllers were working, none of them could speak English.  When Mark went through the same thing about 8 years ago he said he had to go get the foreman to ask about work being done so that the foreman could tell the workers what to do.

It's doing a disservice to say that a tradesman isn't qualified to work at that trade just because they didn't go through a union or program.  Quality work has to do with integrity and honesty...not how they went about learning their trade.  When people file complaints they file with the state contractors board who is not interested in credential but only that the tradesman is licensed and qualified..and that is determined by their state test.  ALL contractors must pass the test no matter how they learned their trade.

In any case I certainly agree that the shortcuts taken by  contractors these days is scary.  Blame it on the greed of the builders and who they hire as contractors while trying to save money by hiring laborors with no knowedge other than to hammer a nail.

My entire point, although I digressed, is that one does not have to be licensed to be a plumber or any of the other trades.  The distinction comes in saying "plumber" as opposed to "licensed plumber."  When you hire work done, you need to make sure it's by a licensed company.  That does not however, guarantee that the guy who comes to your house is licensed.   I'm only saying this because that was OUR business and I actually worked in the field along side my husband.  .  I was known as a "finish electrician" in the business and was not required to be licensed.

Nancy, it means exactly what I said. Just because you don't get the answers you wanted to get does not mean the question went unanswered.

Recently Joe Wurzelbacher has received a lot of attention in the media. In this short entry I want to respond to one of the silly made about Joe to discredit him.

“He’s not a plumber, he does not have his plumbing license”

First, a plumber is a person installs and repairs pipes and plumbing. If you install and repair pipes and plumbing you’re a plumber. If Joe does that, he’s a plumber, period.

Second, a plumbing license is a way of demonstrating you’re a plumber. You don’t magically acquire the skills do be a plumber after you get the licenses. Were all the plumbers before government issued licensed not plumbers?

Third, there should not be a ‘plumbing license.’ The idea that you need government approval to fix your friends sink is disgusting, fascist, totalitarian and anti-American. Either you believe in liberty or you don’t.

Forth, even if he’s not a plumber using that fact to somehow discredit his argument is fallacious. Even if he doesn’t even know what a plumber is, his point is still valid and anytime you hear anyone try and use the ‘he’s not a plumber because he does not have a license’ as an attempt to discredit his argument you know instantly that person is an intellectual lightweight.

Fifth, he's not a licensed plumber because he's not licensed.

Sixth, the licenses are, in theory, for protection of the unsuspecting consumer from, well, "joe the average plumber" who may do some work that is not up to the city, county , or state codes and cause damage and fill the courtrooms with litigation. They are not just to take liberty from the proverbial "true patriots" who espouse liberty in the form of promoting unlicensed trades and skills.

It's the law. I enjoy following the law~ I eat very few bologna sandwiches that way and enjoy my freedom.

Call me a intellectual lightweight if you must but at least give me credit for knowing how to construct a sentence.

Stick around and you'll learn that anyone who finishes a sentence with the word "period" has already lost the argument.

That may be true, but where i'm from those who refuse to actually address an argument and instead retort to cute little personal criticism of irrelevent things have already lost the argument.

He may be a plumber, but he can never legally operate his "business" in county of residence and pursue the American Dream of legally making "250- 70-80,000 a year". Those who refuse to acknowledge the crux of the argument by diverting to semantics lose as well.

Does resorting to feigned and hollow Americanism and determining one's patriotism (i.e. government approval is fascist) to justify a plumber operating without a license bear any weight in the credibility department where you're from?

He may be a plumber, but he can never legally operate his "business" in county of residence and pursue the American Dream of legally making "250- 70-80,000 a year". Those who refuse to acknowledge the crux of the argument by diverting to semantics lose as well.

Lose as well? Lose what?

Does resorting to feigned and hollow Americanism and determining one's patriotism (i.e. government approval is fascist) to justify a plumber operating without a license bear any weight in the credibility department where you're from?

Being “American” or “anti-american” in this context has nothing to do with patriotism. What I mean by that is America as the idea of the ‘land of liberty’ – the kind that Jefferson and the like envisioned. The idea of needing government approval to fix our neighbors sink is disgusting is not the proper role of government. Government is supposed to protect our liberties and enforce laws, not baby sit and put dippers on us.

You lose the argument that you erroneously believe that you started with your " four point manifesto", in which you admit was a "response". I was merely adding to it with cute little criticisms of irrelevant things.

So are you saying that terms like "American" and "anti-american" have become cliche to describe conservative ideals? I've felt that way for quite some time.

Regulation is a protection. There were enough "Joe the Plumbers" to screw up someone's plumbing that licenses were probably a necessity. An ordinance (it's not a state law) like that seems more reactionary in nature. 

Not to sound repetitive, since this was already brought up, but there is a difference between advertising yourself as a plumber and taking money to fix strangers' pipes and going over and fixing your neighbor's sink. The former has government oversight in the form of licenses to minimize (doesn't fully prevent, but there's no 100% preventative solution) the risks one takes in calling a plumber out of the phone book. Fixing your neighbor's sink falls under the DIY realm, which the government couldn't care less about, much like they don't care when you fix your own sink. You only need a license if you plan to make a business out of fixing all the sinks in your neighborhood.