Speaking of diversity. Will you support an effort to have the school system educate children that some religions find gay marriage sinful??  Or does your tolerance end at that point?

Actually, I don't know why that topic would belong in school in the first place. Let alone in a religious studies course. One of my majors in College was religious studies, and at no point did we discuss how a religion views homosexuality. Because it is not a major tenet of most religions. It's just not important in understanding a religion. Secondly, I'm all for religious education in the public sphere, provided all religions and beliefs get even keel. I've commented before on that to Marylee Shrider's blog.

Children are very important and 1/10th of the children in public schools are probably homosexual and another handful have gay parents. Why should these people not be represented in the public education? They are a part of the public school system and their parents pay taxes going towards education. Children should be learning about diversity and tolerance in a public secular education, which is what ours is. However, I am all for introducing religion into schools as a religious studies class. We could have Western religions in 3rd grade, Eastern relgions in 4th grade, then break it down more specifically. 5th grade is Judaism and Hinduism. 6th grade is Christianity and Buddhism. In junior high, they'll learn about Islam and Chinese Religions. Then, in high school they will get new religious movements, philosophy or religion (including I.D.), eastern philosophy, and sacred texts (Bible, Koran, Baghavad Gita, etc). Information about others helps people understand others better. Wouldn't this be good for our children?

If at some point it needs to be discussed how each religion views marriage or homosexuality, then go ahead and discuss in terms of one's religious beliefs. You can believe whatever you want. You just can't use your beliefs to justify mistreatment of any other US citizen that has an equal right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Discrimination is a behavior, not a belief.

Jared, are you a teacher?

jared..you wrote all that when you should have stopped at your first sentence..

I'm not happy about children not being able to express their chosen religion in school but to allow them to be indoctrinated into a lax view on homosexuality isn't worth the trade off..we can teach them religion at home just like the homosexuals can teach their adopted offspring their diversity under their roof..

 life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?? I wish I knew you personally cause I betcha theres somethin along these lines out there that chaps your butt too..

There are those that hate on both sides of the debate.  We should learn to disagree respectfully, and to eliminate the hate from propositon 8. 

In two weeks the people of California will get to vote on a great philosophical issue.  Does the first clause of Article 1, Section 7, of the Constitution of the State of California (which states: A person may not be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law or denied equal protection of the laws....)  mean what it says, or not.  Unfortunately, many will vote without understanding what the real issue is.   Remember the slogan from Animal Farm, "All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others."   That is exactly what a "Yes" vote on Proposition 8 means.   It is a pity that some want that awful, awful idea to be enshrined in the California Constitution.

http://www.youtube.com/watc...

Your side will always see it as a matter of rights, and the other side, a matter of right and wrong.  There's little we can do to reconcile that if we disagree on the fundamental nature of the problem. Both sides seem well entrenched in their beliefs. 

I respectfully disagree with you, but I think it's important that those who are for 8 and those who are against it, make an honest effort to find common ground.  We can begin by agreeing that engaging in vandalism is not a very good way to communicate one's sentiments. 

Personally, I think we'd all be better off without the signs.  They don't win anybody over, and they just stir up bitter feelings between people. 

Your last two sentences are interesting.

Your reasons for believing that we would be better off without the signs are my reasons why we would be better off if we didn't think it was our place or business to vote on other people's intimate, personal decisions.  I think we'd be better off without ballot propositions like these in the first place.

If you can't bring yourself to vote "no," maybe you could abstain on this principle and not vote it at all.  :)

Apollo we wouldn't have need of this ballot if a selfish few didn't try to overturn the democratic process and force their delusion on everybody else in the first place. 

In virtually every school the kiddies use "that's gay" as a derogatory remark. Calling someone a queer is an insult. Students on the EBHS campus defended the slang as of no consequence. Teachers and I'd venture to say parents don't teach this to kids. Kids in school have their own pecking order and homosexuals are at the bottom.

I've heard my own girl use "that's gay" with her friends. What would you have me do? Beat her? Counsel her to embrace sodomy as part of our diversity? Not have friends who use the term? Nothing influences teens like other teens. That's why parents go nuts when the kid is allowed to pick his or her clothes.

I don't mean to justify acting on prejudice, but however anyone feels about homos, teens are likely to work out their own attitudes. Meanwhile, I would not want to see any homo child in a public school. Exercising your constitutional rights can be--well, a bitch.

Selfish, Way?  What's selfish?  I really don't understand.

The "democratic process" did something that it never even should have attempted, and was ultimately found to be illegal by the California Supreme Court.

Apollo, it's selfish of us not to let them hate the people they want to hate. 

.

Your side will always see it as a matter of rights, and the other side, a matter of right and wrong. 

BLT, my side sees it as a matter of right and wrong.  It is *RIGHT* that everyone in this country enjoys the same basic civil rights.  It is *WRONG* for such rights to be taken away arbitrarily.

.

We should learn to disagree respectfully, and to eliminate the hate from propositon 8.

Take away the hatred from Proposition 8 and it would be a blank page.

The proposed constitutional amendment is discriminatory. That it might be favored by a majority of voters does not make it any less so or make it fair and right.

Its passage will surely deepen the divide between those seeking secular equality for all citizens and those espousing sectarian based government.

Its failure would help show that there are at least enough fair minded people in the state of California to assure that religious bigotry does not dilute threaten the sanctity of secular government.

If passed, it will certainly be challenged and ultimately stricken down by higher courts at great expense to the state's taxpayers.

But it might ultimately be best to have the issue decided once and for all by federal courts and become the law of the land just as other discriminatory issues have been finally settled to the satisfaction of other oppressed minorities.

Either pass or fail, justice will ultimately be properly served and the minority protected, as our justice system is designed to work

But it might ultimately be best to have the issue decided once and for all by federal courts and become the law of the land just as other discriminatory issues have been finally settled to the satisfaction of other oppressed minorities.

And *NOBODY* can get married until then.  Works for me.

It's unlikely they had any idea what prop 8 is. Kids do silly things. Replace the sign with a "candy is good" sign and Im sure the same would have happend.

However, thanks to the "Yes on 8" TV ads, *LOTS* more kids now know about same-sex marriage.  Many more than would learn about it in school.  So there's *SOME* good to come out of the campaign.

Will you support an effort to have the school system educate children that some religions find gay marriage sinful??

Will you support an effort to have the school system educate children that most religions are based on nonsense?

From Time.com today

Meanwhile, with every court victory comes an electoral backlash. When a divided Connecticut Supreme Court ruled last week that gays have the right to marry, it took a far more cautious approach than California's Chief Justice Ronald George did in May. George issued a thundering declaration of gay rights, ruling that any law that discriminates on the basis of sexual orientation will from now on be met with the same strict scrutiny typically reserved for laws involving race or religion. By contrast, Connecticut's Justice Richard Palmer writes that "our conventional understanding of marriage must yield to a more contemporary appreciation of the rights entitled to constitutional protection."

"religions are based on nonsense."

Once again....in your opinion.  And that opinion is in the minority.

And in the opinion of *SOME,* homosexuality is a "sin" (whatever *THAT* is.)

Why teach one opinion and not the other?  Bigotry?  There's a reason religion is kept out of the schools--there are so many, all contradictory, that you wouldn't be able to teach anything else if you included all of them.

I have already mailed in my ballot and voted on this proposition.  I was truly torn.  I have such a passion for separation of church and state.  Many of my friends, one of them being my best, are gay or lesbian.  I am also a member of a Christian church.  So my decision kept going back and forth not because of what I felt was right but because of the possible tax exempt issues.  My belief in equal rights won over my worries of what will happen to our nation's churches.  I am proud of my decision but at the same time I can't help but worry what may happen if it does pass. 

Thank you for your thoughtful vote.

and now its time to WORRY

and now its time to WORRY

Why, SCR?  If Prop 8 (rightly) goes down to defeat, the situation will be exactly as it is today.  Sure, the economy will still be in the crapper, but that has nothing to do with same-sex marriage.  People of both orientations will get married, have and raise children, fight, make up, divorce...and die.  Exactly as it is today, October 21, 2008.  No churches are burning down, there are no comets foretelling doom, nothing.  In fact, it's a pretty nice day overall.  People who are married now will stay married no matter which way the vote goes.  Those marriages will have exactly the same value they have today.

I just ran across a bus advertising campaign in London that makes the point nicely. 

When and "if" the Churches get in some sort of "trouble"~ I'll be the first to do more than worry. Religion is an important part of some peoples lives~it is when religion and politics become enmeshed we should all worry. Americans first,spiritual people second.

Right to religious freedom~ and that includes the right to be non-religious~ is a corner stone of our Democracy.

"There's PROBABLY no God" Don't bet your eternal life on that ad! What a sad message to send!

Pasquale's wager is the way to go.

I'm making exactly the same bet you are.  It's a pretty safe one on my part.  Actually safer than yours.

 Pasquale's wager is the way to go.

Pasquale?  That guy down at the pizza shop? :)

Yeah he's quite the gambler. He even bets with... GOD! (*egads*)

He takes bets on football on the side, too.

Hmmm...No wonder he's at the pizza shop. I thought it was because of the big screen HD TV.

 Jared, are you a teacher?

Not a teacher. Just a concerned citizen with kids that will be attending public schools. I just hope the public schools will be accepting if one of my kids happens to be gay. I don't want to be afraid every day that there is a possibility that he or she might be hurt in some way.

Meanwhile, I would not want to see any homo child in a public school.

So Homosexual children who are indeed US citizens do not have a right to a public education? Perhaps you support rights of the fetus as well? Does a fetus who is not even born yet deserve more rights than a US citizen? When specific religious beliefs mingle with general politics the logic becomes so twisted that it is indeed scary.

Jared as a parent. I just can't imagine that. You were so crazy in high school.

Yeah... I'm a parent. My boys are 6 and 4. I'm going through a divorce, but I see them as often as possible. I guess things were pretty crazy in HS, I really don't remember much.

That's cool. I got three boys (one in Canada).

How'd you get a kid in Canada? Can you get dual citizenship having a Canadian kid? I might look into that...

I looked into at one time but I caught the "academic holy ghost" and went back to school in the states. I'll look into it at a later time. For now, I'm working for the CINC in...the army (I love it!) and going to law school. I'm owned by our Uncle for a couple more years.

That's cool. I returned to school in 2005 and got my BA in 2007. I'm in the 2nd year of my MA in Experimental Psychology program, then off to Ph.D. I would've been in my Ph.D. this year, but with the divorce I wanted to stay near my boys as long as possible. My Ph.D. program won't be more than 8 hours away though, so I can get to them as quickly as possible if they need me.

Good grief, Jared, my post did not suggest religious motivation or view on fetuses. Nor did I suggest homo kids should not have a public education. It was a note of sympathy and I stated the reasons why. How you could construe anything else from my comment is beyond me.