Thanks Jason and if you could point me toward any other such work it would be appreciated. 

Thank you Jason ,for giving us all something to think about and hopefully work together on. It is a thankless job,and I know many see it as one sided. But thanks anyway~ and I think you do a reasonable balancing act here.

There are folks here I disagree with ~you know who you are~ (lol) but much as I might want to try at a given moment,I can not forget they are human as I.

 Jason, thanks for posting this.  You may know (as I'm sure Sage does) that there are ways out there both to provide social feedback and help the community establish norms.  Scoop and Soapblox both have these things built in.  For my part (in part to atone for my own sins against this blog) U'm hoping to build up more spaces where people work together on stuff.  Hopefully that'll help a bit.

Good stuff all around though and food for thought.

 Honestly, Jason...my frustration is that there are certain members here, and this isn't limited to ONE "side", who repeatedly strive to unfairly categorize or "slam" others.  And, instead of seeing the people around them as individuals with unique personas and striving for common ground, they treat you -immediately- as if your position on an issue is the only thing they see.  Then there's the issue of reporting it only to have nothing come of it.  I realize you're busy and what not - but why have a TOS if it's not enforced?  I don't think it's too much to ask for those who persist in name calling and broad generalizations ("Atheist whiners", "culture of death", "PRO-abortionists", "secular fools", and even those who call certain people on here "religious nut jobs") to be asked to cease their rude, and nasty, accusations/characterizations/judgements.  It's gone a bit too far when a poster is allowed to call someone's children evil or damned with little to no consequences.  It's gone a bit too far when someone shares a very personal experience and a certain poster CONTINOUSLY (not once or twice, but REPEATEDLY) uses your personal pain to attack you and publicly call you a liar.  If you're ignoring the behavior, then you're condoning it. 

I participated in a few of the Dagny's meet-ups and, at the time, I thought it was an amazing community that could pull together despite differences and have some congenial conversation.  I don't feel that way any more.

I'm not even going to pretend that I'm perfect or that I've never, ever hurt someone's feelings.  I'm sure I have.  But, as a few have noticed (if private messages and e-mails are any indication), I've tried to make amends and/or change my wording to keep the peace.  And, for a while, I just quit posting all together until I could be civil.  Yet...within two hours of putting a little toe back in the waters of this forum, there was a certain person who, like a predatory shark, attacked with a verbal tirade and false accusations.  The strange thing is: this certain person gets nasty with people who actually AGREE with him or believe in similar things because you've given them a place to spew that intolerance and hate.   I would say that if you wouldn't say it at Dagny's or at a public gathering, then you shouldn't spew it here.  If you wouldn't walk into a coffee shop and call something a "pitiful atheist whiner" or walk up to a child and say "You're damned to hell.", then you shouldn't say it here.  But,...if you permit it, then it will continue.  People have a right to an opinion and a different opinon entirely,...but, do they have a right to encourage hate, violence, and venomous language in public?  There are children who read this newspaper and this section of it... my children were scared of some words they read here by certian people.  Is that right?   I respect that you want to avoid censorship or the appearance of favoritism or bias,...but, it's gone too far.  Again, this is just my opinion...do with it what you will...and for all those who will inevitably jump in here and say  "You say hateful things about so-and-so...", I challenge you to read my comments on this blog for the last six months and find one. 

 A rotting salad bowl.  I'll have to digest that for a bit. 

 Some hatred seems more tolerated than others here, Jason, by virtue of having the cloak of "religion" to hide under.

If you like, ColorNine.  The truth is that there are many opinions voiced in the nation today (for example, the hatred spewed by McBush's spiritual advisor John Hagee) which appear to be given a "pass" because they're "religiously-based.)  Like a poster here who shares Hagee's views on the Roman Catholic Church and another who does the same thing against Jehovah's Witnesses and homosexuals (and the RCC, but to a lesser extent).

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I imagine it's a phenomenon something like visiting a cult compound and hearing them repeat what the voices tell them.  Anywhere else you'd laugh nervously, but self-preservation kicks in and you say reassuring things until you can get safely out of the midst of the insane.

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Only in this case the "cult compound" is 3000 miles wide and we all live here 24/7.

 possummomma I don't think that you are cut to be a blooger. You seem to wear your feelings on your sleeve and that's not good. How can you get offended or your feelings hurt when you post anonymously? I checked your profile and all you are is a made up character. So am I. I don't get offended because you don't know who I am, you don't know my name. Now if I had my name on my profile I would feel differently. But being that we are both basically anonymous bloogers where just two made up characters talking to each other. This is the Internet and if you don't like something then DON'T read it.
 

I do not want this site heavily policed.
If it was it would be empty and boring.

 I don't think PM is asking to be protected.  She is asking that both sides be treated the same, whatever policing is done.  So am I.

 I guess I have thicker skin then most. I have been called all kind of names and accused of many things for views and comments. To me its all words...........
 

Now I have read some straight out mean things and thought it out of line.
I guess we are all different.......Because if I felt picked on and bullied I'd either fight back or go find some place that I fit in. But that's me.

My point, random, is that both sides of every issue have their rude, mean, bullying, insensitive, snide, etc., commenters here.  The flip side of positive qualities is also true.

And I'm sorry, gube, but I don't buy your explanation.  Why should anyone feel any differently about what's being said about them or their views just because their real name isn't revealed?  It's still the same person.  If anything, I think knowing who the person is that you're addressing mitigates people's responses, much in the same way it would if we were responding to the person face to face.  So if you wouldn't make the comment to the person's face, why make it when they are "anonymous?"  That's just cowardly, imho.  Ever heard the saying "Character is what you do when no one's looking?"  Well, apply it to blogging when you aren't sure who you're addressing.

 If you have so much character then why do you post anonymously..............

Its the Internet stop taking it personally if you post anonymously....................

Because I'm talking to a character not a person.................

If your not a character then post with your real name..................

 Gube is your real name?

Pawnthyself no gube is not my real name. My mane is James.
A couple of years ago my 4 year old niece would call me her big gube gube.
After I made my profile my wife informed me that the correct spelling was more like gubby or gubbie..
''your my big gubby gubby''  She melted my heart when she would call me that......It was cute.........

 lol thanks.......... see I have a sensitive side :)

 oh I see ha ha mane.....name.....ha ha

OK, couple of things:  I think people get more leeway in blog posts than they do in comments.  If someone wants to post garbage in their own little space and that garbage doesn't cross a bright line of raciscm or hate speech and it;s not specifically aimed at another person in the community, it's probably fine to just let it die alone in its own little self-generated cess pool.

Second, I think part of the problem is structural here in that the community has developed according to the technology used.  People ultimately come here to talk to other people and so we gravitate to the blogs where there is a lot of discussion.  Since those tend to be controversial subjects, the whole community tends to attract people who enjoy that sort of thing.

I'd also point out that most of the worst blog wars are incited by a single person and can be stopped by a single person.  I know because I've been both of them.

At the end, this is our space and we make this community what it is everyday with our own actions or lack of action. 

Gube~ I beg to differ with your characterization of using a "made up" name instead of your real one. I leave my real name off my profile(and my address,phone number etc.) because there are folks out there who are unstable,criminal and the like. Yet I have shared my deepest sorrow,my hard rows to hoe in a very truthful manner...no made up character here,and I use sagefever across the board on most sites,except my bank etc.To not protect yourself in this day and age is asking for trouble.

We live in a time where it seems he /she who screams the loudest wins the discussion,when losing the debate that calling names can turn the tide....here I thought my playground days were over. We do ourselves,our children, our way of life a great disservice.

 Sorry you have such a painful time "readin."  Maybe you should get yerself some of them newfangled "spectacles" things.

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Spam Code NYMBY:  Not yours, MY back yard.

 sagefever I understand why most people wont post their real names, for the same reason I wont. I think many bloggers that get picked on bring it on themselves. I also know that there are some bloggers that enjoy talking crap and trying to hurt peoples feelings. That is why I try hard not to let comments get to me."
 

A person posting on line needs to be careful what the say. Don't put anything out there that someone can come back and hurt you with. Remember this is the Internet and non of us really know who we are talking about.

 Lunk, I'm not taking sides with anyone.  In that case, any one of the people involved could calm the situation and no one seems to want to.

Then gube,you may wish to rescind your remarks about character to colornine  . You can not say someone has no character simply because they use a avatar and a nick. BTW I was posting here when the incident P.momma talks about occurred.It was beyond the pale. Much like when another poster showed up at anothers work place. I understand the thick skin being needed,and the ability to shrug off words.....but your children and your work should be safe.

The beauty of being in my particular space is there is not much left to hurt. Just that one thing~my sense of community. I take that seriously.

 safefever and possummomma I'm starting to get the felling that I'm commenting on something that I have no idea  of what.....maybe I'd do better to shut my mouth. 

If I am out of line please except my apology

gube~ no,that's how we find out,by asking questions...;-) 

 I can only speak from my own experiences and sometimes those are a little tunnel visioned.

 As many of you know I have fought this battle on the blogs for quite some time and those like random and a couple of others have written entire posts vilifying me by name, which only proves how small some posters can be. But it still comes down to civility, some are and some like random are not. But there is no changing them and they are seldom deleted by Jason and continue to attempt to make themselves appear large and of consequence by belittling others. Random is doing this right now on one of my posts, but those like him are best dealt with by simply deleting or ignoring entirely.

I think that an online community like this one is prone to conflicts.  With the exception of geographically based online communities like this one, most online communities are formed according to similar interests.  I'm not saying that fights never occur there, but they are significantly less likely to occur when individuals gravitate toward a certain common belief system - whether that is a shared religion, a shared political view or another common hobby.  This online community is centered upon a city which is very diverse and large (including folks not living in Bakersfield but having some other attachment to the city), so it's not surprising that the bloggers are a very diverse collection of persons reflecting variance in socioeconomic status, culture, race, education, and very different views on a variety of issues, including religion and politics.  It would seem that conflict is inevitable, the challenge is in negotiating the bounds of conflict so that folks understand the "community's" expectations.

Probably part of it too is just remembering that interpreting the meaning behind text is much more difficult than interpretting a person's speech in real time.  We don't get the visual cues, the voice inflection, the other non-verbals that help to distinguish the sarcastic from the humorous to the serious. 

I don't know what happened that caused some folks to feel the need to be anonymous for safety concerns.  Sounds like some not good things and that's a shame.  Being anonymous does act as a veil that helps to protect the speaker from accountability, but I think it can work the other way too.  When I post, my name is attached, and I think that does force me to reflect on my intended message, to try to be more respectful and less confrontational.  When I say things, I try to at least make sure they are the same things that I'd say in real life.  I'm not criticizing the folks who choose to be anonymous; just trying to offer a different perspective on why I'm not.

Thank you for the post Jason. 

 Sam, if I were out to self-aggrandize it would surely not be through antagonizing you-- I have loftier ambitions than that.    I generally try not to comment on your blogs anymore, as I know your particular fetish for worship will simply cause you to delete me.  You brook no one who questions your basic assumptions--as I stated, your "received wisdom."

.

You're upset because I refuse to genuflect at your writings, and instead point out your ingrained biases.  Remember when you couldn't write a post without mentioning the ACLU--or better yet, the "Jewish-dominated ACLU"?    Even you eventually learned how bad that made you look.  

 FreeCognate hits the nail on the head, to coin a phrase.  This blog is somewhat unique in that it *DOES* host diverse opinions.

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From my personal standpoint, I once blogged freely (elsewhere) under my own name.  I took exception to some posts made by a mentally-ill person who accused another poster of, essentially, pimping out his own daughter.  When I vocalized my objection--not kindly--one of her sycophants tracked me down via my name to a business website, and suggested that everyone contact my boss to have me fired.

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There are posters on this board whom I suspect would do that in a New York minute if they thought they could.

 Good of random to take the trouble of proving my point concerning him.

 gube/James -

Like sagefever, I post anonymously to protect my family.  My husband works in an area of law enforcement and has had death threats made against him.  We don't want or need any additional "advertising" to the kooks and unstable people who may be perusing the Internet.

I am going to chalk up your challenge of my character just because I post using a screen name (which, also like sagefever, I used just about everywhere else an ID is needed on the Internet) to your not understanding why I used the quote.

"safefever and possummomma I'm starting to get the felling that I'm commenting on something that I have no idea  of what.....maybe I'd do better to shut my mouth. 

If I am out of line please except my apology"

Though you did not include me in your apology, I will accept it as though it were extended to me as well.

And thank *YOU*, Sam, for proving mine.  But then, you can't delete me on *THIS* blog, can you?

 thecolornine yes yes yes please do except my apology it was also meant for you.....

I do talk off the top of my head a lot and I do put my foot in my mouth from time to time. ha ha

 Random is what is known as a "heavy breather," the kind of cowardly creature that is afraid to identify themselves by name and you only encourage by not hanging up on them. At least I'm proud of my name and choose to be open and aboveboard in expressing my opinions, not lurking behind a facade but not encouraging the heavy breathers like random.

As far as the continued Rf and Sam fight, we can use it to find workable solutions: one of the first folks here to reach out to me was Sam,we hardly ever agree on anything,he even went so far as to call me un-American,and those are fighting words with me! BUT after I cooled down,we found a balance ,I rarely agreeing with him,except in our mutual love of fighting windmills...hardly genuflecting. Rf is sharp as a tack,funny and has his own brand of insight,which I find myself agreeing with mostly~until he hits the snark button,but that is his right.

What I am saying is that in time,and the will of two people who want to,a truce of sorts can be worked out. I wish more of this would happen.

*sigh* I can only say how sad. Two grown men acting like boys,spoiled ones at that. 

 Sage, there's no "fight" involved.  He deletes my posts, and I point out he's doing so because of his own inadequacies.  He's past the age where he could learn anything from the experience.  (Although I don't think he's posted his fantasies about the ACLU recently...)

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I don't see anything to be gained by a "truce" in a non-existent fight.  As I said, I gave up genuflecting long ago.  As you can see from Sam's last post, there's nothing of any value to be had there.   Sad, but a fact of life.

I understand...but it still is sad. 

 Too easy sagever since you were not the object of this heavy breather singling you out by your real name in a post dedicated to personal insults, then cyber stalking you to continue the insults. Now, who is the "grown man" in such an abominable and uncivilized thing.

 Sam, if you prefer that I call your pseudonym a coward, you'll have to provide it for me.

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It certainly ain't *YOU*.

 See, this is why I object so strenuously to being deleted for no good cause.  I prefer to let my words stand and let the reader decide. 

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"Non serviam," Sam.  Or whoever you want to pretend to be.

Neither of you are getting my "good maners" award for 2008 . Either one of you could put a stop to this,but by now it is obvious neither of you are "quilty" of anything and it is the "others" fault. So be it. But I can say it is sad and I do say so. Sad.

 Sage, here is the blog post Sam is supposedly so up-in-arms about

http://people.bakersfield.c...

If you'll notice, it mentions him no where by name or pseudonym.  I posted that blog for a very specific reason--because an old fool was trying to stifle debate on a matter *HE HIMSELF* posted.  I took the occasion to point out that homophobia is, on balance, not a good thing.

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I decline to name the old fool in question.

Thanks RF~ even more puzzling. 

 Gube, I accept your apology (and, if you want to know what happened, e-mail me).  But, I wanted to address a few things you said:

possummomma I don't think that you are cut to be a blooger.

I've been blogging for eight years - since before blogging was called blogging. :)  In eight years, I've met hundreds of people and formed hundreds of friendships.  I have a blog that is easily found that has a readership of 12,000 people a day.  If I'm not cut out to be a blogger, then I'm curious to know what you think blogging is?

You seem to wear your feelings on your sleeve and that's not good. How can you get offended or your feelings hurt when you post anonymously?

I am far from anonymous.  I use the pseudonym here for the same reason as others, but...there are more than a few people who know my real name, where I live, what my kids look like and their names, etc.,.  You haven't been on here very long, so I can see how you might think I'm anonymous, but....that's just not the case.   

I don't get offended because you don't know who I am, you don't know my name.

I'm not offended because people don't know who I am.  I'm offended by people who know *what* I am and feel that that gives them a blank check to be awful and hateful towards my family and I.   

Now if I had my name on my profile I would feel differently. But being that we are both basically anonymous bloogers where just two made up characters talking to each other. This is the Internet and if you don't like something then DON'T read it.
 

I do not want this site heavily policed.
If it was it would be empty and boring.

I don't want things heavily policed, either.  But, if you're going to have a TOS, then it's generally wise to enforce it.  Even in the blogsphere there rules and norms of behavior.   :)  You're free to disagree.

 I enjoyed your entry, Jason, but I can't say I enjoyed many of the comments.  Tedious.

 Don Imus' favorite word.....................

kat~ now we are even,for I was beyond surprised at your post awhile back that was nothing but hate. I am even more surprised that you could take anything I said here and construe it as hate promotion~ except for the fact I refuse to take sides in a personality dispute. To clarify for those with ears who wish to hear:I am not advocating "hate" of any blogger here. For the others :I suggest cue-tips.

 Sage, maybe Katatak was joking?  You're one of MY voices of reason when I get out of line.