Well, gee, noone, don't you think *SOME* panic is in order, given the circumstances?

Well, in the first place, you have to believe in the religious/superstitious nonsense the hucksters of the world attempt to foist off on people. And the con men aren't the worst: it's the ones who really *believe* in what they profess. Sinners going to hell, pen**es shrinking, and so on...

smoke another one before you go to your liberally indoctrinated college classes.........jeeeezuz...does religion bother you that bad???

Now that's a funny statement...."jeeeeezuz....does religion bother you that bad??" Not sure how that religion thing worked out for Jesus, you know?

Religion doesn't bother me. I ignore it, for the most part, until something outrageous--like this story--or the FLDS sect thing in Texas--or the John Hagees and Osama bin Ladens of the world--attempt to intrude upon my individual rights. Then I'm more than happy to point out what a ridiculous thing religion is. If it floats your boat, good for you. Just don't try to govern me by it, thanks.

And I graduated from my pretty conservative liberal ARTS college a long time ago, thanks. It's there I was taught to think for myself.

Perhaps Noone here wishes that we follow the example of the tolerant, human rights respecting, Chinese Communist, Government which if it hasn't completely out outlawed the freedom of worship, at least puts it under strict, atheistic, state control.  Though I don't think the communist stranglehold over the Chinese people will last long.  They might soon follow the path of the other atheistic governments like the Soviet Union, Cuba and Albania and collapse.  Some people happen to agree with the Constitution about freedom of religion and the separation of church and state.  Which also means do not make the official religion of our government, secularist faith. 

Perhaps he just wanted to point out that once folks will swallow religious claptrap whole without any proof,  they're ripe to be fooled by any other claptrap that comes along--ID Creationism, non-temperature-related penis shrinkage, or whatever.

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And perhaps there's no such thing as "secularist faith."

I happen to agree with the Constitution, myself, sojourner7. I never said nor do I advocate following the example of China, particularly in light of its human rights record. However, I would like you to explain the seemingly contradictory (to my mind) "secularist faith." Is that not an oxymoron?

I believe the point of the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment is that we, as the citizens of the United States, will not have a state-sponsored religion of any kind. That means we're totally agnostic as a government. However, we have violated our Constitution in a number of ways...granting tax-exempt status to churches, for example, is an act of "respecting an establishment of religion" to the detriment of the rest of us.

My point, as evidenced by the referred article, is that there are people who will apparently believe anything, including the idea that there are witch doctors who can steal or shrink mens' penises, or render them impotent, by a spell. Absurd....and yet there are people for whom that idea apparently has great and terrifying power. I don't buy it in a second, nor do I buy the idea that there's somebody up in outer space watching the hairs of my head and guiding my life or anybody else's, who is keeping tally of our deeds and misdeeds and planning for appropriate arrangements in a non-existent "afterlife."

If it gets you through the night and keeps you from worrying about day to day troubles, fine. I don't need it, don't want it, and I find it laughable. You'll have to forgive me for that, I suppose, as I forgive you for believing such things.

The Chinese government sucks because the leaders are elitists under the guise of communists, not because they are atheists.

In fact, one of the little known and worse atrocities ever commited in China was by a Christian named Hong Xiuquan. It was the most devestating genocide of the 19th century. There were battles the size of Gettysburgh and an estimated 20 million people died in the struggle.

So...if you don't equate China with atheism, I won't equate Christianity with Xiuquan.

And lest anyone try to claim that Hong wasn't a "real" Christian, rest assured he'd say the same about them.

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And before anyone tries to claim that this sort of inane credulousness is restricted to the Congo, look up the Salem witch trials.  The "glamour" business ain't what it used to be.

Secular Humanism is a faith.  Just as atheism is a faith.  It is a article of those faiths that they're is no God, that man's intellect is capable of making that call, and all mans problems can be solved by man.  So to not respect others faith and give secularism favored statues in the government while claiming it is upholding the separation of church and state is the real oxymoron.

     You also made the generalization that people who believe in witchcraft in the Congo are representative of all peoples of faith.  I just brought the horrible failures of communist regimes as an example of your generalization.  Millions of people have been tortured, imprisoned, and killed because of this secularist faith in man, whatever particular ideology they followed be it Darwinism, Communism, Fascism, or Free choice.  If you want to make generalizations your hands are not clean of blood.

    It refutation of your generalization that all peoples of faith including yourself are the same as witches in the Congo.  I am pretty sure that the Christian Clergy in the Congo does not condone such belief and has done much to educate people about it.

Thought you'd bite.  Here's my pinky-new analogy:

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You're paying a mortgage on a vacation home.  Everyone in a religion is.  Which church you go to is analogous to what bank your loan is with.  Different sects have different "interest rates."  Atheists don't have any of that crap.

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Atheists don't have such "vacation homes" or "mortgages."  No bank.  No interest rate.  Pointless for you to pretend that we are a "faith" or a "religion," except that it gives you great comfort to do so.  Like playing with ball-bearings in times of stress, it relieves the nagging doubts that you keep pushing down.

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Atheism is not a faith.  It is the absence of a faith.  

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By the way, the Christian ministers in Africa may not push that particular claptrap, but only because they have a competing claptrap they're trying to sell (holy oil, anyone?), getting the natives to refinance their nonexistent vacation properties.  For all I know, the Vatican is packaging the nonexistent souls and reselling them as "can't-miss" investment packages to some *OTHER* suckers.

Or worse, they could have been set on by Roman Catholic priests, who have a fairly rancid reputation these days (well-deserved) in Africa:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/w...

(Of course, I'm sure they don't use condoms, so god says it's OK)

Hey, nuns need to be defrosted somehow.

Well, lessee...here's Wikipedia's definition of secular humanism, which I'd agree with, and with my emphasis in italics:

"Secular humanism is a humanist philosophy that upholds reason, ethics, and justice, and specifically rejects the supernatural and the spiritual as warrants of moral reflection and decision-making. Like other types of humanism, secular humanism is a life stance focusing on the way human beings can lead good and happy lives.

The term "secular humanism" was coined in the 20th century to make a clear distinction from "religious humanism".

Wikipedia says religious humanism is:

Religious humanism is an integration of religious rituals and/or beliefs with humanistic philosophy that centers on human needs, interests, and abilities.

So...secular humanism...It's not a faith...it's a philosophy.

Faith, dictionary.com, says is:

I supose, in that vein, that atheism could be defined as a faith, but it's not in the same usage. Much like the term "debt"...which can be physical (as in cash owed) or as in a favor, quid pro quo, sense.

Random, good analogy.

Pax, surely you're kidding. Surely.

I saw this one from the earlier link on another blog...pretty amazing how easily some folks can be deluded.

I'm a secular humanist and a secular Christian.  The interest rates are lower.

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(I'm waiting for Buffoo to claim that my non-belief in his "vacation home" is itself a faith.  If that's true, then he's behind in the payments on that condo I sold him.  The one I refuse to describe, supply a deed or even an address for.)

rlpYes Noone and you must have faith in unproven facts to follow your philosophy so it is fact a religion.  Now back to my example of China as one of the last remaining "Atheist Paradise" and how it will not long stay that way.  I came across the National Geographic:  Special China Issue, May 2008.  It says that according to a survey by a Chinese University in 2007, that 31.4% of Chinese 16 and above claim to be religious.  Braking that down by faiths 27.5 were Folk Believers.  8.5 Buddhist, 8.4 Christan, 8.2 atheist( You see sociologist do count atheism as a faith), 4.3 Animists, 1.5 Muslims, and 0.05 other.  In a country were atheism has been the official faith since before the 1950s and which has tried to persecute every other faith to extinction.  Christianity at this present time has more adherents then the official atheism.  The Roman Catholic Bishop Aloysius Jin Luxian who spent 27 years in communist labor camps and prisons explains the occurrence like this "The more the suppression, the more the rebound...Souls become ever more empty which affords religion room to expand."

Random you have a active imagination and a lot of fantasies ,but I am more interested in facts.

I've got a *VERY* active imagination and lots of fantasies, mostly involving the contact of skin with other skin--but none of my fantasies involves an imaginary sky buddy.

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Without seeing the actual survey it's difficult to see how the NG survey defined religion.  But calling a dog's tail a leg does not make him five legged.

"The more the suppression, the more the rebound" sounds like a perfect explanation for the clerical molestation cases.

By the way, if you like NatGeo, this tidbit might please you:

http://news.nationalgeograp...

The source was posted Random so look it up.  As for seeing child molestation in everything; you did admit to having a lot of skin on skin fantasies.  Your tidbit says that lizards adapted to there enviroment; not became a entirely new species.

Not going to do your work for you, Buffoo.  I don't subscribe to NatGeo anymore.

Buffoo, I'm not a Catholic priest, so I have other outlets available to me.   As to "new species," how do *YOU* know they're not now a new species?  Or won't be one soon.  It's amazing change for 40 years.

All Hail Athe, god of ....uh.....uh.....uh.....people that don't believe in him. Huh?

Actually, I wouldn't even consider atheism to be a philosophy, which would include a group of beliefs, and being a general guide. Atheism is simply not believing in a deity. Period.

You really hurt your credibility, Sojourner,  by constantly portraying atheists as evil. After all, religion has killed more people than gunpowder, and Christians have certainly had more than their fair share of atrocities.

I would argue that an atheist is not necessarily a secular humanist. A secular humanist might be an atheist, but the converse is not necessarily true. Do you believe in the tooth fairy, Buffoo? I've seen as much evidence of *that* as of a God.

I also know it's pointless to argue with you on this point, just as it's pointless for you to argue with me. I don't necessarily attack Christianity, though you seem to think so...I'm of  the opinion that religious belief is a waste of time and at best a harmless fiction, and at worst...well, an awful lot of awful things have been done in the name of various gods, regardless of their origins.

However, here's a little bet: if, say, it's proven beyond all doubt that Allah is the god we're supposed to worship, and Islam is the religion we're supposed to follow, I would agree to that (as I would Christianity if the same were true, there).

Would you? What if Christianity were shown to be a mere myth, a massive hoodwinking of several million people over the past two millenia? What would you do then?

So Random are those outlets are blogging and taking cheap shots at people you don't know?  Anti I responded to this blog that said all religions are evil.  I merely pointed out that the ones calling all religions evil are followers of a religion themselves.  As the old Russian proverb goes "You are either for God or against Him ,but you are never with out Him."  I also responded to the idea that secularism should have favored status in our government, even though the Constitution forbids us to have a official faith.  I did this by bringing up the example of one of the last official secularlist nations on earth and how that hasn't been working out for them.  So I see nothing here that hurts may credibility accept maybe answering Random.

The answer is easy Noone.  I don't worry about it ,because Christ is the way, the light, and the Truth;D

1. Buffoo, what if you where born in an area of the world where you never heard the name of Jesus or God?  What if you were told to worship the sungod?. 

You'd be defending that right now instead, it's just that plain and simple.  You need something. 

No, Buffoo, but thanks for asking. 

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As the old Roman proverb goes, ""You are either for Zeus or against Him ,but you are never out of range of one of his lightning bolts."    (I believe it's been recycled through the ages.)

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The Constitution does indeed keep us from having a national faith.  The alternative, no officially recognized faith, is called "secularism."  You're soaking in it.

Actually Woof I was raised as a secularlist in a secularized society.  I resisted very strongly becoming Christian.  I studied existentialist, marxist, Buddhist, new age philosophies and I dabbled in the wiccan, satanist, the kabbalah occult practices.  Anything ,but Christianity.  But God was very patience with me and because He loved me before I loved Him.  I finally became a Christian.  Now the only question is how to overcome my egotistic self and grow in that love.  For people who have yet to know Christ it doesn't matter.  You will be judged for what you are given and the center of our being is always is contact with Christ.  Christ also promises that He will not close the age until the Gospel has been preached in all languages and to all nations.  See you all later I am off to celebrate the Holy Uction service.+Glory to God+ 

Exactly.  There is no zealot like a converted zealot. 

You know just how easy it would be for you to come to your senses, and therefore you constantly guard against such moments of sanity.  Sounds like you didn't care *WHAT* you believed in, just that it tell you what to do.

Fortunately, we're not trying to shake *YOUR* beliefs.  We're merely pointing out that all religions, Christianity included, have a screw or two loose at the base, and that it's perfectly acceptable not to choose *ANY* religion at all and still lead an ethical life.

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Holy Uction, Batman!  

I feel like a broken record on this point...

Secular Humanism is a faith.  Just as atheism is a faith. 

No, Sojourner.  You are wrong.  Not only are you wrong, with regard to what atheism and secular humanism are, you are also a stubborn man with no desire to learn anything that doesn't fit into your stereotype of atheists.

I don't believe atheism on faith.  Your suggestion doesn't even make sense.  I am an atheist because I don't believe in God.  Short and sweet.  I don't have to "hope" that there's no God (though I'm sure you will never acknowledge that).  I don't take it on faith that God doesn't exist.  I don't fear a deity (how can I fear what isn't there?).  Faith is usually defined as believing in something without clear, scientific, observable evidence for believing.  I have many reasons for my atheist position.  None of them are rely on faith in a deities non-existence.   Would you walk up to someone and say, "A-unicornism is just another faith!." or "Opposing Allah is just another form of faith."? 

Furthermore, there is no specific dogma in regards to atheism.  Atheists show up in all political parties and social strata.  If you did an interview of one thousand atheists, you'd see that they were as diverse in certainty and approaches as they are diverse in appearance. 

Secular humanism is not a faith - it's a philosophical approach to living based on an attempt to treat your fellow human with dignity, respect, and compassion, without having a deity to command you to do so.  Secular humanism is a way to view the consequence of a choice (or choices) as they will relate to man-kind. 

If it is not a faith, then why is Possum and Random always preaching it?  P.S. I believe both of you have stated that you are converted zealots from the Roman Catholic sect.

I DONT UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE FEEL THEY NEED TO TRY AND CRAM THEIR BELIEFS DOWN ANOTHER MANS THROAT...IF RELIGION BOTHERS YOU JUST KEEP UR MOUTH SHUT CAUSE YOU WONT CHANGE A TRUE CHRISTIANS MIND ANYMORE THAN THEY CAN SAVE YOUR SOUL..

THIS BLOG WAS POSTED JUST TO GET PEOPLES GOATS AND START A NEVER ENDING ARGUMENT. ONLY WAY ANYONE WILL FIND OUT WHOS TELLING THE TRUTH WILL BE THE DAY YOU TAKE YOUR LAST BREATH..UNTIL THEN THIS IS ALL JUST A BUNCH OF CHILDISH DRIBBLE ORCHESTRATED BY BORED PEOPLE THAT JUST WANT TO ARGUE FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUING.

WITH SO MUCH ELSE GOING ON IN THE WORLD THIS BLOG IS ONE OF THE LONGER ONES AND ITS A USELESS WASTE OF TIME ON BOTH SIDES.

ALL WE CAN DO AS BELIEVERS IS ACCEPT PEOPLES SHORT COMINGS AND ASK GOD TO FORGIVE THEM FOR THEIR ATTEMPTED INTERFERENCE IN WHAT WE DEEM HOLY..

AMEN

I guess as a believer then, you think non believers automatically have shortcomings.

One could also say, if atheism bothers you that much, just keep your mouth shut and quit comparing non believers to despots.

By the way Sojourner. Iran is a theocracy, how's that working out as compared to China?

About the same as Iraq under the secularist dictator Saddam Hussein and North Korea.  Your point is?  I never said that there should be a theocracy.  Even in the Byzantine Empire, the worldly government was supposed to be left to the Emperor and the government of Church matters to the Patriarch.  Of course that separation of Church and state didn't always work out for the Byzantine Empire, because the Emperors often tired to intervene in church affairs.  But then again God preserved the Holy Orthodox Church from heretical Emperors to.  And do your home work the Orthodox Church has nothing to do with the Latin Crusades or the 100 years war, or the muslim jihads.

Who said anything specific about the Orthodox church? But now that you mention it, there is that whole Bosnia thing.

I have nothing but the utmost respect for Jesus. But Christians have had blood on their hands on many, many occasions. I only bring those things up, when you purport that non believers must be inherently evil, as if Christians have never done wrong.

What you are doing is equating the Chinese government with atheists. That's like saying Charlie Manson is a man, therefore all men are despicable, or, 100% of all heroin addicts have breathed air, therefore breathing air leads to heroin addiction.

You see, the only problem I have is that when you post on your own blog, and you don't like what is said, you call it a meaningless debate. But you have no problem coming on other people's blog and having that same debate. And when you are baffled by logic, you use the bail out card of, "I don't know, let God sort it out".

You might also notice, that the only responses you ever get aren't when you are promoting Jesus, it's when you are demeaning atheists, and I'm not even an atheist.

We ain't preaching, Buffoo, we're pointing out that *YOU* are preaching, and that not believing a word of any of your cut-and-paste posts is a valid philosophical stance.

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What you want is the kind of "secular" state where Chrisitianity is above question no matter what silliness or evil it fosters.  The US isn't your personal blog--you can't delete those who disagree with you.

Spam Code JEHVA--one "O" short of divine sanction

I am not the author of this blog.  Take it up with him who posted "O.K. a perfect example of why religion is a bad idea..." I merely responded that those who think they are better than us primitive, superstitious, God fearing  folk are really not so far above us as they like to believe.  If  the blogs authors points don't stand up to scrutiny; how is it my fault?

The blog's author's point is that you who believe you are above the primitive superstitious folk cited in the Reuters report are not so far above them as you like to believe.

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Your belief is exactly equivalent to theirs, in that you accept what your own religion tells you without proof and without evidence.   Atheism may or may not be "above" religion, but it is certainly not equivalent, no matter what your church has told you without proof or evidence.

If it is not a faith, then why is Possum and Random always preaching it?  P.S. I believe both of you have stated that you are converted zealots from the Roman Catholic sect.

You have a very strange view of preaching if you believe that is something either Random or I do.  Stating a non-belief is not "preaching".  Correcting someone else's fault assumptions regarding atheists or atheism is, also, not "preaching".  I'm also curious about your term "zealots".  I grew up in the Catholic Church and poured my heart and soul into that belief system for twenty-five years.  What bearing does that have on this discussion and you continually making assinine statements about atheism/atheists?   Let us also examine the word "always"...this is pretty rich considering that I've posted MAYBE five times in a month and you've posted, what....five times a day in the last month? 

Yep, Random and Possum are still preaching at me.  Nothing left to do ,but treat them like the jehovah witness cultist and say "No thank you."  Then being very careful not to make eye contact; walk very quickly away.

Buffoo, you've confused "preaching" and "laughing." 

Wayfarer,

Why is it that you can't have a congenial discussion or address the comments rationally?  I sit here reading what you wrote above and it's childish.  Simply because you make the statetement ("Random and Possum are preaching at me.") doesn't make it so.  Neither Random, nor I, are the ones who post daily devotionals on this site.  Neither random, nor I, are going around the blogs calling people "cultish" (Woe! The irony.  It burns!) or suggesting that they lie.  You've done both.  And, for whatever reason, it's tolerated by the Californian. 

The only time I respond to you is when you misrepresent or dehumanize atheists/atheism.  And, it would appear, that others see this, too.  You make some generalized, offensive statements about secularists/secularism or atheists/atheism and then you act like the wounded victim who's going to "take the high road" when the secularists/atheists respond to correct your false statements.  Fortunately, I think almost everyone here sees through you and has acknowledged this game you play. 

Buffoo, you've confused "preaching" and "laughing."

Just for the record: I'm not laughing.  I find the whole thing to be very sad. 

I laugh that I might not weep, Possum.  Buffoo is a lost soul and welcome to his fitful comforts, but perhaps we can get to the freethinkers in high school early enough to save them years of waste.

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All atheists really seek is to keep organized religion and its inherent anti-science baggage out of the government, where real people are trying to solve real problems in the real world.  We don't want to deny the Buffoos of the world their dreams, just keep them from interfering with the work .

Amen

Once again Random confirms what I am saying, while revealinf his real agenda.  He would like to replace the "In God we trust Postures"  with "There is no God" and yet he claims that he isn't prostelying a religion!  Well the atheist have had most of the 20th century with regimes such as Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tsung, Saadam Hussien, Fidel Castro, Idid Amin, and Kim Ill Sung who tried establishing atheism as the only official faith while persecuting those who did not agree with them.  The result is that most of these regimes have fallen or will fall.  You can not kill the human spirit that hungers for God.