You know what.. I'm going to post 2 statements i made in 2 different blogs to make a number of points:

Once again, this boils down to an issue of individual faith and belief.  For most of recorded history, Governments have not made a formal definition of what marriage is, because it was always seen as a personal issue.  That being said, the one thing Governments usually did allow was for one person to bestow legalities over another, most usually a spouse if they had one.  In modern times, the Federal and State Governments should not create an actual definition of what marriage is, as it should fall upon the established religions to make a decision regarding marriage itself.   However, the Government should ensure that homosexual unions are honored from a legal sense. 

In reality, Prop 8 violates both the State and Federal Constitution under the separation of church and state clause, for the only argument against homosexual marriage happens to be from a Theological standpoint.  Therefore, to establish an official definition of marriage would amount to the Government recognizing a specific theological viewpoint as being higher than others.

Besides that, I have yet to see any argument which firmly explains how a homosexual union has a negative affect on you personally.

As we become more and more integrated as a society, we learn from the early age that diversity is not a bad thing.  Unfortunately, the majority of the people (at least on this blog) who seem to have a hatred for certain people also grew up in a time when Jim Crow was still law of the land in many places.  I might not have grown up here, but I've learned a fair amount of the history of this city, and it's apparant that there is still a lot of work to be done to promote respect and acceptance of alternative points of view.  

The grand irony  is that many of these arguments are coming from nothing but a pseudo-Christian perspective.  I say pseudo-Christian because it seems that many denominations and followers of the Christian faith have been swayed away from the original point of Christ's teachings.  Instead of concentrating on love and respect, they center in on specific portions of Biblical scripture which are taken way out of context.   How easy these people forget such words as "Love they neighbor as thyself," or "judge not lest ye be judged," or "let he who is without sin cast the first stone."  

While I believe that most people have the best intentions, the fact remains that when we as Christians focus on a negative instead of a positive, we not only tend to alienate specific groups (which then turn away from God, thanks to the ignorance of those who claim to be doing His work), but we also set a bad example for our younger generations.  Ask yourself this one question - when you're teaching your children about the world, are they learning things in a positive, or a negative light?

Whether some of you like it or not, our country has come a long way since the 1950's.  Therefore, you can either take an ostrich approach with your children and shield their eyes from reality, or you can give them an honest education while still instilling specific values which you see fit.  Ignoring reality only breeds ignorance, which then can turn into something far worse - fear and hatred of that which one does not understand.

So.. when you're walking down the street one day and your child sees two men holding hands (and nothing else), and asks you about it, will you respond by saying "Homosexuality is evil, it's a sin," or will you respond by saying, "sometimes people love each other, even though they are both boys.  As Christians, we disagree with this, but as the Bible teaches, we love our neighbor as we love ourselves."  Which approach is more positive?

This valley is the most repressed part of the state, and consistently has the highest teen pregnancy and birth rates.

This is not coincidence.

The problem FsG is that the government or least a few judges in California is attempting to force the beliefs of a minority sub culture on the rest of the population.  This is the real violation of Church and State. As demonstrated by these links: http://www.salvomag.com/new... and  http://www.mercatornet.com/... 

As for your theories of Christianity, let some one who knows what they are talking about explain it to you.  Here is a link to an article called "Talking to your Children about Same Sex Marriage."  by Father George Morelli who happens to be an Orthodox Christian Priest and a Clinical Psychologist.  It is a must read for anyone who really wants to think about the issue. http://www.orthodoxytoday.o...

Another question if certain fanatics are so interested in protecting human rights, then were are their voices in protecting children's rights from abortionist? 

The pain of the nations present economic situation is not enough pain for same-sex couples, says Shrider.  Proposition 8 bars gays and lesbians from the most financially and emotionally stabilizing resources this country has - the institution of marriage - with it's near 1,400 benefits that keep families together and on solid financial and emotional footing.  The only alternative same-sex couple have to try and duplicate the privileges of legal marriage by spending thousands on legal fees and that plan, too, fails in many cases.

Marylee Shrider is a heartless sadist who cannot get enough satisfaction out of mere prejudices. She wants to legally bar her fellow citizens from the safe financial haven that legal marriage provides.

And she calls herself a Christian and an America.

I'm not going to vote on prop 8 at all. I do not agree with homosexuality. That being said, I am also not a homophobe and I understand that if we tell gays they cant get married it doesn't stop them from being gay. If they want to get married, so be it. I don't really believe that gays will be the end of civilization as we know it, and I don't believe it cheapens heterosexual marriages. We heteros will still be heteros. I will not be tempted to play for the other team just because a state now recognizes their union. It wouldn't matter any way. If prop 8 passes, it will just be struk down by some liberal judge in northern california just like so many other have been. That's what happen when we allow judges to make law instead of interpret it, which is what their job is SUPPOSED to be.

Thank God, when this issue is over, Marylee won't have anything else to rail against.

 If prop 8 passes, it will just be struk down by some liberal judge in northern california just like so many other have been.

That's no precisely the case. If it passes, it will be appealed to the Federal courts of appeals and it may or may not be struck down. No matter what action is taken by the federal district court, if Prop 8 passes, it will eventually end up before the US Supreme Court.

Remember them? The majority being appointed by Republicans?

There, the vote will be 5 TO 4 overturning Proposition 8 and that's where the SH*T hits the fan.  If overturned, it will apply to ALL states that have a constitutional amendment barring marriage rights for same-sex couple or, exactly what the Religious Right DOESN'T want.  If Prop 8 fails, it will stay in-house (within California) and that way ALL OTHER STATES will still be able to decide on their own as to what they will do.  That is what John McCain supports. He's in favor of allowing each individual state to determine what they want. It's a FUNDMENTAL Federalist view of the law (a view that insists upon a state's right to make it's own laws that cannot be changed or disrupted by the US Supreme Court as long as a law suit is not brought before the the US court.

The history of laws effecting gays under the PRESENT US Supreme Court:

Lawrence vs. Texas:  Justice Kennedy was the CRITICAL justice from the Right that wrote the opinion that voided ALL sodomy laws in this country and overturned Bowers vs. Hardwick that *upheld* sodomy laws.

Romer vs. Evans: Romer was the name of the governor of Colorado who was against Amendment 2 that barred gays and lesbians from having ANY legal rights within that state. Romer's name appears on the case as a technicality since he was the governor at the time. He is now the superintendent of the Los Angles Public School system.  Justice Kennedy ALSO wrote the opinion in this case on a vote of 6-3.  The Amendment 2 essential made gays and lesbians strangers to the law in Colorado. It prevented them from having ANY LEGAL RECOURSE - WHATSOEVER - in fighting ANY act of discrimination.

Sorry mildmannered ,but I think the fight for human life and human dignity won't end until judgement day. 

Great Ray all the more reason to vote for Prop 8 and thanks for posting that list now we know who else to throw are business to:D 

The problem FsG is that the government or least a few judges in California is attempting to force the beliefs of a minority sub culture on the rest of the population.

One reason that both state and federal constitutions were drawn up was to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.  

Marylee Shrider is absolutely “right” about PG&E prop 8 they should be punished for their participation in public issue that should be decided by the people. There are exclusions but these exceptions have to be for very specific reasons such as their partnership with Bakersfield imposing a surcharge on our utilities to build that new baseball park, after we fix the freeways mind you.

No, PG&E should stop promoting illicit obscene propositions and limit themselves to helping us maintain a stable City operational budget by collecting any charges our great conservative City fathers assign them.

Some opponents will claim that PG&E is not helping the Gay community that is totally untrue, defeat prop 8 and tell them we disapprove of their corporate actions.

Marylee, we love you for setting the record straight.

 Some opponents will claim that PG&E is not helping the Gay community that is totally untrue, defeat prop 8 and tell them we disapprove of their corporate actions.

Once you've cleaned up on PG&E, how do you propose to do the same with THESE companies that, like PG&E, also OPPOSE PROPOSITION 8?

American Airlines (Fly United? They also oppose Prop 8)

Citi Corp (cut up your credit card)

IBM (bye-bye PC)

Google (You could use Yahoo! but Google actually does their site indexing for them)

Levi Strauss (Throw out most of your clothes)

Bank of America (You can always get a home or car loan from Lehman Brothers)

Ernst & Young (The largest accountancy company in the USA?

Prudential (Cancel your life insurance)

XM Satellite Radio (Oh no. You'll miss the shock jocks)

American Telephone and Telegraph:  AT&T (Get an IPhone. Oops. No. AT&T has exclusive rights as the carrier)

British Petroleum:  BP (Get your gasoline from Chevron)

Chase (another credit card you don't need)

Chevron (who owns Texaco: Get your gas from Shell)

Harrah's (Who needs Harrah's when the indians are so close)

Nike (there goes three-fourths of the wardrobe and you can stop watching Tiger Woods)

Showtime (Switch to the 700 Club)

Volvo (I'm a Chevy man, myself)

Cox Communications (Cable television. Switch to satellite)

Dell (There goes the PC)

Price Waterhouse (half your technology and reading material)

Shell (Go to BP. Wait. No. Uh.  Let me think.)

Starwood Hotels (Westin, Merdien, Sheraton, Four Points, St Regis (stay at Motel 6)

Just a technicality, Husband, Roy Romer has not been supt of LA schools since 2006.  He was a great governor for Colorado.

 IF,,, this other gas company makes it in, which I don't believe they will, they'll up the price after they've got you by the balls. 

 As far as 8, "A MARRIAGE IS BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN"~!

And not two of the same,!! They just don't fit together and don't have the right things in the right places.

Damn!,  I'll be glad when this is over so the few friends I do have on the blog are still talking to me seeing that I'm only one of the small handful of people that believes it is wrong.

The code that came up on the screen to post my blog was KKK,,,,, was that a sign??????? ;=)))

No, Murph. KKK is not a sign for you. You have a brain that you put to good use, if I may say so even though judgemental and subjective as I may be about you. At least you show evidence of common sense on a regular basis, which I can't exactly claim for myself.

As for sending PG&E a message by changing to Tiger, Inc. Yes it would send a message, but according to information I was sent by J Burris, the savings are not that substantially. Different amounts for different months. My though was, of course I'll pay less during the summer months, you don't use much gas during those months. You still get billed by , or through PG&E, and there are access fees for Tiger Gas to be able to use PG&E's lines. I personally think that when enough people change over, PG&E will just charge Tiger, or us more in access fees. Whatever they lose in one way, they will make up in another. I put PG&E in the same category I do Hall Ambulance. Monopolies! $1100.00 to go less than a mile. Unbelievable!

HM

 I just thought it was an odd code and was laughing about it is all.

As far as the other, you have your rights to your beliefs and I have the right to believe as I see.  We do agree on that point and that's what it's all about.

Hope you and your's has a GREAT week end. ;=)))

I am convinced that one of the major reasons people support Prop 8 is because they are threatened.  They aren't threatened by gay people getting married, but by the possibility that gay people would make marriage look so much easier than their straight counterparts.  I mean, can you imagine if this so-called sacred institution produced these hypothetical statistics:

only 10% of gay marriages end in divorce

children raised in gay marriages have significantly higher SAT scores

children raised in gay marriages are 78% less likely to commit suicide

children raised in gay marriages are 82% less likely to be abused by their parents

Think about it--this is the real threat.  If these hypothetical stats were true, straight people would never get married.

Thanks again Ray for re posting that list.  It also makes the point that you are trying to strong arm us into agreement with the homosexual agenda.  Where would America have gotten if they bowed down to tyrants.  Would the Boston Tea  Party ever happened?  Would Labor Laws protecting the working man ever happen? Or the Women's Right to vote?  Or actual real Civil Rights have happened if people didn't make sacrifices?  Maybe the KKK is a sign.  Perhaps it serves to remind us of another minority who tried to impose it's will on everyone. 

I'm merely speaking to the issue of the blog which is actually a call to boycott PG&E to punish them for opposing bigotry. But how will you do a search on Google, or click a Google ad without rewarding Google for opposing Prop 8? Who gets punished when they hit the start button on their Dell or IBM computer?  All the phones call over the AT&T network to rally the pro8 base? How do you punish the largest phone company in the country?

Marylee is EVIL.  She is a SADIST who wants same-sex families to hurt financially in this economic crisis while they continue to have to deal with housing and job discrimination.

Still threatening us Ray? 

Still threatening me, Wayfarer? It's not your rights of citizenship that are up for grabs.

Vote for equal rights for all Americans.  Vote no on 8.

 The problem FsG is that the government or least a few judges in California is attempting to force the beliefs of a minority sub culture on the rest of the population.  This is the real violation of Church and State. As demonstrated by these links: http://www.salvomag.com/new... and  http://www.mercatornet.com/... 

Just how is it forcing a belief upon you?  How are YOU PERSONALLY affected?  The truth is that allowing homosexuals to have rights has absolutely no impact on your personal life. I've asked this question of you many times, and you have yet ot give me an answer.

As for your theories of Christianity, let some one who knows what they are talking about explain it to you.  Here is a link to an article called "Talking to your Children about Same Sex Marriage."  by Father George Morelli who happens to be an Orthodox Christian Priest and a Clinical Psychologist.  It is a must read for anyone who really wants to think about the issue. http://www.orthodoxytoday.o...

First off, Wayfarer, I'm a practicing Christian, so my observations have plenty of merit.  Second, I know plenty of Theologians, Marriage and Family Therapists, Counselors and other professionals who would completely disagree with your arguments.  In fact, my Grandfather was a Dr. of Theology and was a well respected Pastor in the Moravian Church (the oldest continuing protestant denomination which predated Martin Luther by 100 years).  My Grandfather didn't neccisarily agree with certain lifestyles, but never once did I hear anything negative out of his mouth.  Never once did he walk up to a sinner and tell them they were going to hell.  Instead, he advocated love towards everyone.  Through this love, God shows himself to those who would otherwise be turned away from his teachings.  My Grandfather was the most honorable and humble man I've ever met, and I think I'll trust someone such as him any day over someone such as yourself, as it pertains to matters of Faith.

I took one look at the article you posted - as soon as I saw that this Priest advocates a "fear of God, " I knew it was bullocks.  God doesn't want us to fear him.  God wants us to respect and worship him by respecting and loving his creation.  I respect your right to disagree, but the fact is that you continually promote hate, whcih goes against Christ's teachings, and you have been setting a poor example for the rest of His followers.

HM - just an FYI - that list might not be accurate on all accounts.. for example, Texaco is owned by Chevron, not Shell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... s_oidt="0">

Oops, you're right. I have credit cards with both and I just forgot if it was Chevron/Texaco or Shell/Texaco. Thanks.

Thanks again Ray for re posting that list.

You're welcome.  Just wanted to thank you for paying for my equality any time you use the services or products of one of these companies, just like with your PG&E bill.  This is actually only a limited list of the Fortune 500 companies who oppose Prop 8. This list is restricted merely the Human Rights Campaign corporate supporters. Not exactly Bolthouse brew.

So FsG you admit you did not read my links in whole. But claim to know better than everyone else?  You should have continued to read and not passed judgment as soon as you came across a concept foreign to you.  For one the Orthodox Church predates any sects.  If you had bothered to read the article then you would realize that what is commonly rendered as "the fear of God"  means to have the up most respect for God and His creation.  Homosexuality is a perversion of His creation.  Therefore you don't respect God and you dishonor His creation.  This is not sharing in God's Love ,but the devils lies.  Thus you are not being loving of homosexuals ,but supporting the devils hatred of man.  Try studying Christianity for a change.  Thanks again Ray, but your threats do not impress me;D 

Wayfarer - the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church formed during the same period and paralleled each other, yet there are plenty of areas of Christian thought which have been disputed over the years.  

I've done plenty of study of Christiantiy, WF - I happen to believe that your version is incorrect.  Why don't you begin to look at yourself - I'm sure you've participating in perversions which defile God's creation, considering you are a sinner like the rest of us.  Why are you so obsessed with condemning others, especially considering Jesus specfically taught us to love one another?  Speak of sharing the Devil's lies...

Get off your high horse, Wayfarer, for you are no better than any man.

Great post, Audrey!

TBC's champion of ignorance and intolerance strikes again, and continues her crusade against rights for minorities and equality again.  I find it so insulting to see the same homophobic and hate filled tripe over and over again in a major California newspaper.

PG&E, whose corporate offices are in San Francisco, has a political action committee that thought equal rights meant something in this country. The PAC money comes from individuals working for and with PG&E. It is not from PG&E.

Marylee, what is it about the conferring of all rights to this significant minority group that so agitates you? Your preoccupation with other people's sexual behavior has become an unnatural fascination and obsession with you. When the Suprem Court conferred equal rights under the law for all it did not abridge your rights. Your intolerance and advocacy of second class staus for 10% of our citizens now defines who you are. 

Thanks Fsg for condeming and judging me.  God should be happy you are doing His job for Him. 

 "Just how is it forcing a belief upon you?  How are YOU PERSONALLY affected?  The truth is that allowing homosexuals to have rights has absolutely no impact on your personal life. I've asked this question of you many times, and you have yet ot give me an answer." - FSG

Speaking for myself, the rub would come if a church was forced to conduct homosexual unions, or hire teachers without regard to their sexual orientation.  That might infringe more then a little on my personal rights.

You can argue that the Bible teaches tolerance, but the instruction to love one another doesn't mean love everything someone does.  And while the Bible does preach forgiveness, it also teaches repentance.

Now if homosexual rights are granted without violating my rights then I have no problem with that.  Live and let live, I say. The whole Bible narrative is about free choice, it's effects, and the plan God put in place to give us salvation.

Quest: "Speaking for myself, the rub would come if a church was forced to conduct homosexual unions, or hire teachers without regard to their sexual orientation.  That might infringe more then a little on my personal rights."
 

I'm sorry, how does one's sexual orientation affect teacher's performance? I don't see how a teacher's orientation has a single damn thing to do with their abilities as an instructor.

Oh, and check the bill (and the recent court decision). Not a single church is being "forced" to perform a marriage ceremony for any couples.

.

On a side note, does anybody have a list of previous Props PG&E supported (or fought)?

Awesome post, Mom.  I remember you telling me all the time when I was growing up about this: "there was no one left to speak up for me." 

There's a danger in wanting the world to all think alike.  There's also a danger in expecting all the world to live their lives according to ONE belief or set of rules.  Lastly, there's a danger in refusing to stand up for people who are persecuted for thinking or living in a way that is different from your own.

On the bright side, a gathering of people with different viewpoints discussing ethical issues in a respectful manner is the very essence of democracy and an antidote to the poison of ignorance.

And for all the people out there who have habit of rooting for the underdog, can I hear a "HELL YEAH?"

PG&E's donation reflects the majority view of its customers.  Is MaryLee saying they should respect the wishes of a minorty of their customers in discriminating against still *ANOTHER* minority? 

I'm delighted to see that an enterprising competitor is using the teapot tempest to push their own product.  Hope it costs those who switch *LOTS* more this winter.

You want to make PG&E cry?  Turn down your thermostat this winter.

.

God should be happy you are doing His job for Him. 

Hey, someone's got to do it.  The office upstairs is empty.

Marylee's got her panties in a bunch about what, $10-20 per month she probably spends on natural gas that's helping to support NOT writing discrimination into the California Constitution?  If she really feels strongly about this, she should walk the walk and get her household off the electric grid, which is where PG&E makes most of its money.  What about it, Marylee?  Throw some solar panels up on the ol' Shrider rooftop and stick a nice wind turbine in your backyard.  If you're so outraged by how godless PG&E is, now's the time to act. 

NO ON 8.

The Supreme Court wisely and rightfully ruled that denial of marriage rights to same sex couples unconstitutional.

That's what the courts are for.

It is not "legislating from the bench" to properly interpret ill conceived and ill written measures which violate anyone's civil or human rights whether heterosexual or homosexual, male or female, black or white, Godless or God fearing.

The proper application of law is not based on biblical belief.

Biblical "law" remains apart from government and fortunately unenforceable in progressive society.

Look at the Middle Eastern nations under sectarian rule for an understanding of why America's founders and framers of its constitution assured a secular government.

Marylee, you fascination with my sexuality is creeping me out. 

And thanks by the way, I have donated to the cause VOTE NO on your behalf, thanks!

Thanks for pointing this out Marylee. Unfortunately, we already get our gas from someone else so we can't switch.  I will certainly let our friends and family know though.

HusbandMaterial - you forgot to include McDonald's as a supporter of No on 8. Our family now eats elsewhere (sorry little franchisees).

We donated generously to Yes on 8 to protect traditional marriage and the RIGHT of children to be born to a father and a mother.

"I'm sorry, how does one's sexual orientation affect teacher's performance? I don't see how a teacher's orientation has a single damn thing to do with their abilities as an instructor." - Mattloch

The question is not their ability to teach, but their ability to reflect the values of the private religious school.  You may not like those values, but that does not give you or anyone else the right to try to force others to believe as you do. 

Unless, of course your beliefs in personal freedom and rights only applies to those things that *you* believe in.  In which case, you are no better then the conservatives that you rail against.

The line between church and state should go both ways.

Marylee is just like the modesty mob currently attacking secular people in Isreal. Religous hatred of those who are secular is uncalled for.

 HusbandMaterial - you forgot to include McDonald's as a supporter of No on 8. Our family now eats elsewhere (sorry little franchisees).

I'll say it again. That list is ONLY the Human Rights Campaign (HRC) list of corporate sponsors who oppose Prop 8. McDonalds may very well oppose Prop 8 (as do most of the Fortune 500 companies) but McDonalds isn't a corporate sponsor for HRC. HRC's sponsors pay for HRC's congressional lobbying and to fight discriminator laws in ALL states, not just California. Microsoft is also opposed to Prop 8 but, like McDonalds, they aren't a corporate sponsor of HRC.

 Thanks Fsg for condeming and judging me.  God should be happy you are doing His job for Him.

Now you know what it feels like to have a taste of your own medicine.

Speaking for myself, the rub would come if a church was forced to conduct homosexual unions, or hire teachers without regard to their sexual orientation.  That might infringe more then a little on my personal rights.

I don't think that'll be a problem,. churches being forced to conduct homosexual unions, that is, so long as there is an alternative, such as the courthouse or any other officer of the peace who has authority to preside over a marriage ceremony.

You can argue that the Bible teaches tolerance, but the instruction to love one another doesn't mean love everything someone does.  And while the Bible does preach forgiveness, it also teaches repentance.

You're right, but the Bible also teaches us that it's not our responsibility to judge someone else for their sins.  It is up to them to make the conscience decision whether to ask for forgiveness or not. 

Now if homosexual rights are granted without violating my rights then I have no problem with that.  Live and let live, I say. The whole Bible narrative is about free choice, it's effects, and the plan God put in place to give us salvation.

Well.. I have yet to see or hear of anyone who's had their individual rights violated because homosexual marriage has been allowed legally..

Sorry, wrong blog.  I moved it..

FSG,

One of the concerns is that the move to grant marriage rights will also result in the granting of minority protection rights via the courts.

I agree, as long as there is a legal alternative to marriage, and churches are not required to conduct marriage ceremonies or forced to allow rental of their facilities to conduct these unions then it should not be a problem.

The same thing goes for churches that might be required to hire teachers who do not share their belief system.  If the state and courts preserve the rights of churches and individuals to practice religion without interference from government then it should not be a problem.

This is real issue.  We are still dealing with this when it comes to the issue of birth control and abortions.  The question becomes what religious beliefs are trumped by public interest or individual rights.

I believe it is the over reaching by both conservative and progressives that is pushing our country backwards.  Intolerance works both ways.

Agreed, Quest.