When they only work 9 months out of the year, they only get paid for nine months out of the year.  A lot of them teach summer school and after school classes as well as their regular time and they do get paid for that.    They have adjunct duties that go along with the job, like chaperoning dances, timing track meets, etc and they are not paid for that..  Some have started clubs that benefit the kids but come out of the teachers personal time.  I don't know about pension from the state but I do know they have a big chunk taken out of their checks for retirement.

I'm sure there are a lot of slackers out there in the teaching world but why is no one standing up for the ones who believe in what they do?  Personally I don't think they get paid enough but the teachers in my family say they are NOT underpaid.  They work darned hard for their money. 

Imagine that !

It's fairly astonishing to me the amount of credit the public refuses to acquiesce to the teaching community. Teaching is a job that requires a four year degree, an additional year and half in credentialing, extensive state testing with CSET, CBEST, and other subject matter competency requirements, and the two year induction program of BTSA. Accusations that teaching is easy and is only a 9 month job seem ludicrous in light of the amount of work I see teachers pouring into students every day during the school year. Extensive lesson plans, counseling, parent meetings, grading, test prep, reading and research all culminate in a 12-14 hour job during the school year. This includes weekends spent grading and updating scores.

Especially in California, with the absolute glut of incoming students who are EL learners, ie English Learners, teachers are faced with the daunting task of adapting their curriculum to students who don't speak the language, as well as addressing the issues of students with disabilities, special needs, GATE students, and the overwhelming number of individuals with below average reading abilities.

To get the education we provide in America for the price teachers are paid, the average student is getting a deal.

Anny...maybe you should ask a teacher how much time they spend on their feet.  As for prep periods and zoning out..I don't know about ALL teachers, only the ones in the family and neither of them have time to "zone" out during prep periods.

One is a high school teacher and the other is a middle school teacher and both say they use their time to catch up on work.  I was told by the high school teacher that they are expected to be on their feet during classes and if a supervisor walks in and you're sitting, you'd better have a good reason.  If they aren't on their feet, then I'd have to wonder why both of them came home night after night talking about how bad their feet hurt.

All jobs have their good points and bad points but teachers always get a bad rap and are the first to be jumped on when kids don't perform.   How bout putting some of the blame at the home level?   I don't doubt one bit that there are bad teachers out there..but to lump them all in one barrel isn't the right thing to do.

I once was told that if a client succeeds the client did well.  But if a client fails, then the counselor failed.  Sounds like teachers fall under that saying too.

My typical day as a teacher:

5:30 am Up early to get ready in time to get my child and myself ready, including reading the paper to become aware of possible teachable events 

7:20 Off to daycare so I can be at work by 8 am

8:20 - 11:50 Teaching ...no prep time, no teacher's aide, barely any time to sit, including during recess when kids come in for one on one help or to chat with me

11:50 - 12:30 Lunch or time with the kids in the clubs I supervise during lunchtime

12:30 - 3:00 Teaching...no prep time

3:00 to 4:30  Bus duty, calls to parents, grading, lesson planning, spur of the moment meetings with colleagues or principal, preparation for next day's activities, meetings with parents, staff meetings, committee meetings (some combination of this every day)

4:30 pick up child; grade during child's independent play or nap time

Fortunately, I'm not new, so I don't also have BTSA or classes.

Report card weeks are a different beast.  Add weekend hours before and more time on the phone or in conference with parents in the weeks after.

I also have to earn 150 professional development hours every 5 years (unpaid hours in most cases, sometimes costing money out of my own pocket). 

I work the hours of a professional, I have the training of a professional, and I have responsibilities of a professional, yet I am paid much less than all other "professionals".  You want me to be the best, but you are not willing to pay me for my time or training?  In other professions, pay is not linked to hours; it is partly an incentive to attract the best of the best away from other companies, law firms, or practices.  Until we adapt this business model to teaching, the best minds are not going to have an incentive to leave cushy high paying jobs for the stress of this low paying job.  My idealism got me into teaching, but the low pay and stress may drive me out.  I'm not the only one.

$56,444/9 =6271.00 per month.. If you carry that out over a year that would equal, 75.250/year.

For Bakersfield. That is a salary apx twice the medium..

I point this out. Only because I believe that anyone earning that sort of pay in Bakersfield, still expecting 4 months of vacation. Is lazy. A whiner. Real work is working all year.. Get a life. Working during the summer. Is not working a second job. It is being fully employed.

I point this out, in order that I might ask the following question. Does an education excuse laziness?

Further, I point this out. Because many blame individuals for their poverty. When in fact those individuals are not blessed with the qualities needed to achieve success. They can work many hours. Search for work in every available moment. And never achieve success. BARC and many other employers have programs for the physically and intellectually underprivileged. But there are not enough of these jobs. And these programs will never take them out of poverty.. If these individuals lose their families support for what ever reason. Their challenges will only be multiplied..

Now for the other side of the story. 75.250/year is not great enough income to buy a medium priced home in Bakersfield. Single professionals in Bakersfield are being priced out of the middle class. Single professionals in skills such as Teaching, Nursing, Firefighters, and Law enforcement Have up to the last few year, been able to keep their head above water. Thanks to their Union barging power..

My personal opinion of poverty. Is a income that will not afford a person the ability to provide himself a home. That is the American Dream.

If we are a nation of employers. That want to explain away our open border. So that the illegals can gain the American dream..

Shouldn’t we first allow access to this American dream, for more than 25%, of our legal citizens..

If a teacher makes 56k per year that means that's what they get for the entire 12 months.  They don't get paid for the summer months unless they teach summer school and they don't get a check from the school district during those months unless they are working.  Is that what you're basing your figures on?  If you divide that amount into  12 months that's the amount you could say they make monthly on a year round basis.  My grandson and his wife are both teachers and, oddly enough, neither one feels they are underpaid.

(edit add on)  Do any of you have any idea how much they take out of a teachers pay for retirement???  I was shocked.  So that pension isn't all paid by the state or district.

My eldest daughter is a teacher. For a number of years. Makes more than the above mentioned salary..

But that does not improve the home buying potential of a new hire, single teacher.

Unless prices of homes devalue. Or wages go up considerably. New hire single teachers will never be able to afford a home..

My referral to lazy teachers, was tongue in cheek.. And reference to the fact that many consider that laziness applies to those that work thousands of hours a year, for minimal wages, and never have the ability to pull themselves up out of poverty..

The American dream is not that of a joint income tax return. It is of individual success..

Take either your grandson or his wife out of the equation? Ask them of their ability to purchase a home today?

With their wedding debt they can't afford to buy a house with BOTH incomes.  Both are practical though and will be looking at buying next year when, hopefully, prices will be better.

But to answer your question..no, if you took either salary out of the equation, they probably couldn't buy a house.  The other side of the coin is..where would they get the down payment?

Hey..I can't even afford to buy a house.  I've found that it's cheaper in the long run for me to rent.  I have no repair or upkeep bills other than what I add on by my choice.

I've worked in education for 20 years.  I've seen it all and will share some of what I've seen.

$56,000 is the average salary for a techer who works 6-7 hours a day for 9 1/2 months.  Teachers who are at the top of their salary schedule can earn in excess of $70,000 for a work year of 180 days.

In addition to that base pay, they receive compensation for ANY extra duties they assume beyond the normal school day.  After school coaching or tutoring is paid at an hourly rate computed on their place on the salary schedule.  Teachers who accompany 6th grade students to CAMP KEEP earn $40-45/day for 5 days in addition to their regular salaries for those days.  Their transportation, room and board at CAMP KEEP is paid by the school district.

Teachers begin the school year the third week in August.  They spend the first 3 days attending district paid training.  They are not officially on duty yet so the district's compensate them at the rate of $300/day for each of those 3 days.  A total of $900 if the teacher attends all of the training.  Conference and workshops are also offered to teachers by the state and private educational systems throughout the year.  A techer must submit paperwork to the district office for approval if they want to attend a conference.  It is always approved!  These confrences are usually held in major metropolitan areas such as San Francisco, Anaheim, Las Vegas, Sacramento and occasionally Tahoe.  A conference lasting 3 days can cost the school district $1,400 for each teacher who attends.  This includes expenses for transportation, lodging, a food per diem, conference costs and substitute costs. 

The school district gives each teacher a benefit package which does not show up as salary.  Paid retirement is one part of that package.  A percentage (7.5%) of their gross monthly salary is paid to the state on behalf of the teacher.  This amounts to $400/month for each teacher.  Teachers do not pay anything towards their own retirement.  Neither the teacher nor the school district payinto the  Social Security System.  Teachers can, however, draw a Social Security benefit if they have qualified for 40 quarters.  Many qualify based on the jobs they held in their teens and 20s.

Most of the school districts in Kern County belong to a co op health care plan called SISC.  Most district pay all or most of the premiums for their teachers.  The costs of these premiums average $1200 a year.

Some benefits come in a non cash form.  For instance, teachers earn 10 paid sick days a year.  They also receive 4-7 family sick days a year.

Walmart has gained public goodwill by offering teaching school supplies at the beginning of the school year.  A nice gesture, but unnecessary.  Each classroom is given a budget at the beginning of each year for classroom supplies.  How the teacher uses it is up to them (within limits).  If they use it unwisely they can avail themselves of the curriculum labs located at their district offices or at the County Superintendent of Schools at a nominal cost.  These labs have every possible classroom aid from laminating to copying. 

When I was in school, my tiny, 7th grade teacher had a classrom of 35 kids.  5 rows of 7 desks.  Now when a classroom exceeds the state recommended class size the teacher qualifies for a classroom aide.  The aide has a number of duties ranging from running errands to grading papers and supplying individual help to students.

It takes 4 to 5 years of higher education to become a teacher.  That's true for other professionals as well.  Teachers need additional training as the curriculum and circumstances change.  That's also true for other professionals too.  So why do teachers always bring this up as though it only applys to them?  If you want to advance on your salary schedule or in your profession, you take additional training.  Big Deal!

Teachers take work home.  Who doesn't for Gosh Sakes.  My husband was a county employee who worked 10 hour days for 2 years because of a shortage in his department.  He NEVER turned it in as overtime.  He felt it was his duty to get the job done.  Teachers need to GET OVER IT.

There IS one big difference between teachers and other professionals. Teachers have a POWERFUL union.  And that union, CTA, has skillfully drilled it into the heads of the general public that teachers are underpaid and underappreciated.  This mantra has gone on for decades to the point where teachers have begun to believe their own hype.  Hence the whining.

Before you write this off as just a diatribe, do a little math.  Based on $56,000/year for 180/days extrapolate that out to the NORMAL work year of 247 days that you and I work.  Then kick in the benefit packages of $1200/year for health, $4000/year for retirement, $900 for the 3 days before the school year, the sick leave and family sick leave benefits.   If you're a professional or a skilled journeyman ASK yourself......do you earn that kind of money?

I'll have to ask the kids again why so much is taken out of their checks since you say retirement is not deducted.  I remember being shocked at the net compared to the gross.

Thanks Anon for clearing up what I've tried to say.  Not being a formal teacher myslef I only have the kids experiences to draw on.  And, like I said, neither feel underpaid and both love what they do.

As for taking work home..yes they do.  They lived with me for a while and they did have work to do.  Now me for instance.  Apparently I don't have the dedication that your husband did.  I refuse to bring work home with me just because we don't have the personal we need.  I've been on this job for 2 1/2 years and nothing has changed in that respect.  I do however, put in about 9-10 hours a day on the job and have never put in for overtime.  I leave my work at work simply because I can't afford to burn out.   The difference is that my dedication is to the clients and I will give them my time if need be.  My loyalty is to my employer however, because they DO pay my salary, treat me well,  and I have wonderful benefits.

Nancy,

At your age, with your experience in life, you're an asset to your cusomers. Yes, they ARE your customers. Everything in Industry is broken down into the Customer/Supplier relationship. Your suppliers should be damn glad to have you on the front lines. Wesdom is worth more than wealth. Appreciation is the only acceptable compensation for it.

Maybe they're  paying into a tax deferred annuity.   Or maybe the bulk of their checks is going to the KSFCU to pay on a loan or going into a share account or checking account. 

Appreciation is measured in dollars and cents.  LOL.  My favorite saying. 

Actually I'm told by clients quite often how they appreciate me and believe me, that means more to me than anyone will ever know.  When the aritcle about Surfin Grandma came out I was surprised at how many passed by me and said.."saw you in the paper."  Once I was called to the front and when I got there 3 of the clients stood grinning from ear to ear holding up the paper for me to see.  They were so tickled and told me they thought it was great.  It's moments like that, the trust they have in me, that define me, that nourish me, and keep me going when I get need that boost.  I have never done anything in my life as rewarding as this job and will probably work at it as long as the good Lord allows..

Not every teacher makes the kind of money and benefits detailed above.  With 10 years exp and max college credits, I take home 3k per month.  In my district, SISC only covers 80% of my med expenses.  I pay more for regular visits and hospitalization than my "blue collar" husband does with his coverage.  I do not receive any extra compensation for committee work, GATE teaching, or club advisory work, yet there is an expectation that I take on at least two of these each year (more if there are alot of new teachers who need to focus on BTSA or first year learning curve).  I usually receive $75 per year for supplies.  Granted, we have a fairly well stocked supply room for teachers, but it doesn't include white board markers ($5/pk, 1 per month), coloring pencils and markers, bulletin board decor (border alone is $3 per pack), or any of the consumable science supplies for labs that I provide.  I have spent thousands of my own dollars on things like books, realistic "artifacts" related to the history I teach, props for engaging reading alouds, and a supply cabinet for students who cannot afford their own materials. 

I don't get 4 months off each year.  I regulary work 6 day weeks to finish grading and prepping.  I have been on-call during my personal time (phone calls, emails, or being stopped in person) to address parent concerns.  I didn't even get to enjoy my maternity leave; even though I was not being paid during that time, I was told I was expected to come in for an evening event at the school.  I technically have a 2 1/2 month summer, but  I frequently work unpaid days after the end of the school year so that I am not taking my students' time to prep my room for summer closure and finishing cum folder updates.  I frequently start a week or two before the contract day because my room is often completely rearranged during summer cleaning and the bulletin boards don't put themselves up each year.  When I am taking on a new assignment, such as a grade level change or a change of subject, I have to take time during the summer to prepare.  Sometimes these changes are initiated by me, sometimes they aren't.  During the school year, I get 2 weeks for Christmas break, but this year I am spending part of that "break" working to prepare for report cards to go home the Friday after we get back.  I have to do this because 1) I do not have an aide to help with grading, 2) I do not take any of my students' time to spend on grading, 3) I do not get prep time because the one prep time I get each week has been hijacked by a required grade level meeting, and 4) grading intermediate students' work is very time consuming.  Easter Break is often spent figuring out how best to make one final push before testing. 

I love what I do.  I would also love being paid what other hard-working, advanced degreed professionals do. 

Annony 2,

The normal school year is apx 180 days or 36 weeks. That leaves 16 weeks off or apx 4 months..

And yes, I do know that the pay of teachers from one district to another varies greatly.

And yes I realize that there is much unpaid time.

But the idea that you worked many hours for no pay.   Is not one that you or your trade suffers alone.

It is not unusual for blue collar workers to report for work at a shop. Then travel 2 hours before they start on the time clock. But still have to punch out the minute they leave the construction site. While still having to report back to the shop, before going home..

With respect annony. Your suffering is below average..

Anony 1,

My eldest daughter is a teacher. For a number of years. Makes more than the above mentioned salary..

But that does not improve the home buying potential of a new hire, single teacher.

Unless prices of homes devalue. Or wages go up considerably. New hire single teachers will never be able to afford a home..

 75.250/year is not great enough income to buy a medium priced home in Bakersfield. Single professionals in Bakersfield are being priced out of the middle class. Single professionals in skills such as Teaching, Nursing, Firefighters, and Law enforcement Have up to the last few year, been able to keep their head above water. Thanks to their Union barging power..

My personal opinion of poverty. Is a income that will not afford a person the ability to provide himself a home. That is the American Dream.

If we are a nation of employers. That want to explain away our open border. So that the illegals can gain the American dream..

Shouldn’t we first allow access to this American dream, for more than 25%, of our legal citizens..

Hey,

I'd love to teach too, but not enough to take the pay cut. I'll wait until I retire, then I'll probably teach.

If you like teaching, that's wonderful. As of now, it pays what it pays. If you want a higher salery more than you want to teach, then go into Industry and go to work. I hope it works out for you..................

Anonymous

You say you take home $3000.  What's your gross before deductions.  NO teacher in Kern County (even beginning teachers) earn less that $3500/month to begin with.  Are you working a full teaching day or job sharing?

You are covered under SISC for 80% of your medical needs. In the real world that would be considered a damn good plan!   WHO pays for your SISC premium, you or the district?

The reason you were not paid for the entire time you were off on  maternity leave was because you ran out of sick leave.   I bet you got the difference between your pay and the subs pay after your sick leave ran out, didn't you?    In the real world, women who go on maternity leave don't get pay checks of any kind.

You state that you go back to your classroom a week or two early to rearrange it after the custodians have left.  Why?  You're given three paid days prior to the beginning of school to get yourself and your classroom ready..  I've NEVER heard of ANYONE needing two weeks to get ready for the start of school.  Even new teachers only get 5 days.  Do you have special needs?

You say you stay late after the close of the school year to get your class ready for the next year.  Why do you do that since you've already stated that custodial cleaning will disarrange all of your work.    Which is it?  Frankly,  I've never seen a teacher stay late at the close of school or come in two weeks early before the start of school, ever!  No, not one..  You are the first person to do this.  BTW  I am in a position to KNOW when people are on campus.

 Your classroom budget is calculated to meet the needs of an average classroom.  If you're spending $1000's more out of pocket it is by your own choice.   Use the district's curriculum lab and pay for the things the lab doesn't have out of your $75 classroom budget.

I don't know anyone "in the real world" who works less than a 8 hour day.  We all take work home, come in early  or stay late.  The difference is, your late day starts after 6 hours instead of 8! 

Teachers cling to a belief of entitlement.  Just like anonymous 2 they make mountains out of molehills and feed it to a believing public.  Poor me, poor me, poor me, poor me.   

 School administrators do little to dispel this belief of entitlement because they are so intimidated by  the teachers union. 

That's why I'm here.  To shed light on a subject that has never really been dealt with in a public forum.

I shall, natually, remain anonymous.

$31,ooo.oo/ year is not a good salary.. That is what 3500 *9 works out to.. I agree that full time employment is 12 months a year. But the chances that ALL teachers can get a 2 1/2 month part time job, at that income level, during the summer, is small to non..

Year around school with 1 week teacher breaks between classes and adjustment to wages to reflect the longer hours. Would help.

But the fact is. Even 75,000/year will not allow a single person to purchase a home in Bakersfield..

When Professionals, College educated people. Can not afford a entry level home. There is most definitely a problem with wages

JASON, PLEASE EXPEDITE THE FIXING OF THIS BLOG BUG!!  I GOT BURNED AGAIN!!!

Actually, Tkozy, the problem isn't with wages.  The problem is with real estate prices.

You could easily talk me into some seriously heavy government regulation of the real estate market, even though that goes against my libertarian grain.  Housing is a basic human need -- and I'll condone whatever government intervention is necessary to prevent basic human needs from becoming unaffordable.

Here's an interesting question: would we be facing unaffordable, artifically escalated real estate prices (and a real estate bubble) if not for Bush/GOP tax policies?

Bush/GOP tax policies, as I noted before, tax wages (wages = WORK ETHIC) heavily while rewarding lazy ways of making money by cutting (and hoping to elimiate) capital gains taxes.  Work is no longer the speedy way to make money.  Buy and selling houses, making profits at a far lower tax rate than wages, is largely responsible for driving up real estate prices.

If the incentive didn't exist to make unbelievable money without lifting a finger of work -- i.e. real estate speculation -- didn't exist, we wouldn't be facing this affordability problem today.  Taxing capital gains on real estate (other than primary residences) up the gazoo would probably still leave us with affordable homes today.

Oh for heavens sake.  Is there nothing that you guys won't blame on Bush?  This isn't the first time the market has gone up and down.  Granted this was unprecedented but to blame Bush for that too?  Come ON now. 

Would it be possible to have one conversation on here that someone didn't drag Bush into it and blame whatever the topic is on him?

How about tooth decay..maybe he's responsible for that too.  Or athletes foot.  Or the over population of loose cats and the overbreeding of dogs.  Geeeze H.  methinks your Libertarianism is tilting left and I'm worried about you.  ;-)

Now..on topic again about teachers.  Grandson is going to check his pay stub and give me a rundown on just what is being taken out of his check.  I'd rather he'd just give me his check..period.

You're going off half-cocked again, Nancy.  I believe this is the first time that Bush has been dragged into this topic.  Why get so defensive when Bush is criticized?  You're not Bush, are you?

I stand entirely by my comment.  Bush and the GOP Congress have been pushing hard for tax policies that go lightly on people who make money the lazy way.  Speculating on real estate is an extremely lazy way to make unbelievable money, if you're in the right place at the right time.

And guess who pays the consequences for real estate prices being driven up by lazy slimeballs aided and abetted by sympathetic tax policy?

Honest, hard-working young people who want to own their first roof over their heads.

Why is it so terrible to point out that this might not have happened so fast, if the tax laws weren't slanted so favorably to those who do so?

If supporting tax policies that reward a work ethic is "left," I'm sure there are a lot of leftists that will gladly take the compliment.

Making money the Lazy Way? That's called making money the smart way. It also involves a lot of risk. Don't you know that a lot of speculators are losing their shirts in this market? I don't feel sorry for them, because they should have known that there was risk going in....... The market is adjusting itself right now. Give it awhile. Things will get back to normal again.

According to you, it's lazy to think and take risks for a living, rather than brake your back? C'mon, get real here. Sounds like you've got an axe to grind. This has got to be the most rediculus thing that you've posted. I've given you credit for being smarter than this.

H..my point exactly.  Bush had nothing to do with this blog and yet there he is..again.  I'm not Bush..and I'm not defending Bush..I'm just tired tired tired of seeing his name pop up time after time when he has nothing to do with the conversation.

It just gets old seeing people use him to support or validate or give credence to their opinion.  It's not just you..but this time it was and I can't understand why.  Can't we talk about things without using the same old name?  I have entire days at work talking with people without Bush's name coming up a single time..but that doesn't happen on this blog and I have to wonder why that is.

We were talking about teachers pay, drifted into real estate..and then there's old George again

Half cocked implies I spoke from misinformation or was misguided..how was what I said half cocked?  In all honesty I'm not trying to be snotty..it wasn't meant to be a snotty remark..just a shaking of the head and thinking Geeeeezzz..do we have to do the Bush thing..AGAIN?

(are we squabbling again?..we have to watch that or people will think we're married.)

H4f,

Your post is right on target.. Nancy doesn’t care to blame Bush for activities that are manifested during his watch. But that’s a disability suffered by most Bush apologists..

The remedy that you have mentioned would work..

Assigning the value of work. That would approach the degree necessary to provide shelter would work..

Closing the borders. Imprison those that hire the illegal immigrant. Thus making it uncomfortable for those illegal’s to remain in America. And when they voluntarily returned to Mexico. This would open up lower cost housing..

What is interesting. It is all related to Capitalism and the theory of supply and demand..

So why is this all rejected by the so called Capitalist?

What makes it difficult to implement. Is that it addresses a solution unpalatable to those that are fond of the Bush, “ownership society”.

If land can not produce a profit. Then it is not worth what you paid for it. Devalue the land. Not the dignity of a man..

The devaluation of land or product that can not earn it’s keep.. Is one of the consequences of the law of supply and demand..

Our current system is a system that is devouring our middle class.

The journey toward fixing our economy. May unfortunately require the revaluation of many of our properties and wages. From top to bottom.

But the sooner we stop digging. The better..

Unchecked, our journey will without doubt, end in a Jeffersonian Revolution.

Back to the original topic...When you think about who you want educating your children, do you want the "Mercedes" that costs more but has the intelligence and motivation to raise future Einsteins, or do you want to go with the budget "Hyundai" that will do the job, but may not have the same intelligence and motivation as the higher performers and will probably produce mediocre students? 

Why aren't you complaining about the money earned by professional athletes, models, and entertainers.  Really, why anybody would think somebody should bring home millions a picture to say some lines with emotion while looking pretty doing it, or per season while playing a few basketball games a year is beyond me. 

This is the real problem with education in our country.  Kids know who makes the real money...and it isn't always the best educated.

Tony says:

Don't you know that a lot of speculators are losing their shirts in this market?

TK says:

Well of course that’s true. But the speculation that has as a motive, artificially increasing prices. Is costing the middle class of America way more.

The middle class is paying the price for the mismanagement of the markets. The gaming of the system..

When the Hunt Brothers did it with silver. It was considered criminal..

When the oil companies do it. It is all on the up and up..

Annon,

We finally found somthing we agree on..            

tkozy..you're also missing the point, which is common with people who assume they know what everyone else is thinking.  I clearly stated that I am not defending Bush and I darned sure am not apologizing for him.  My POINT was that it's not necessary to bring his name into every topic.  I don't give a rats patootie who you bring into the conversation but if you do it without fail, then it starts to taste of the keg.  For once I'd like to see a blog where people discuss things on thier own merit without using props...but I guess that's asking too much.

It reminds me of people who can't carry on a conversation without cussing.  Around here no one can have a conversation without having to hear about Bush..again.  Believe it or not, some conversations can stand on their own and are interesting without using a someone who has nothing to do with this topic.  Can't these people just use their own intellect?

Hell with it..I'm going to bed.  I'll be back to this topic when I have the info I told Anon I would ask for.  You guys sure know how to turn an interesting conversation into a boring one..and I can't think of any topic much more boring than Bush.

Well, Nance, we couldn't possibly be mistaken for married.  My wife and I are known far and wide for being together 24/7 for an extremely long time, and we're warmer and closer than ever.  :-)

It just seemed like an overreaction (half-cocked), but oh well.  No biggie, at least in my book.

.

Tony, why should the tax laws be such that people who make massive money whilst doing no work for it, be taxed at a lower rate than people who work for it?

I stand by it completely.  Buy a house (other than your primary residence) for the purpose of hoping it goes up in price -- then sell it for a huge profit -- lifting not one finger of work and all with the aid of borrowed money in most cases.  Lazy, lazy, lazy.

Nancy says:

Around here no one can have a conversation without having to hear about Bush..again.

TK says:

Don’t blame me. I didn’t elect the guy..

Seriously. He is the president. He is responsible for his watch. He makes the news every night..

If Bush appoints a scoundrel for a job. And the department ends up corrupt. He has to answer for the front office to the wash girl.

It says so in the job description..

That’s what makes your whining undeserved...

He understood what he was getting into..

You and the other apologist, just didn’t understand the incompetence you were intrusting with the leadership of our nation..

Nancy says:

Hell with it..I'm going to bed.

TK says:

Make sure you say your prayers.

Tkozy wrote, "Closing the borders. Imprison those that hire the illegal immigrant. Thus making it uncomfortable for those illegal’s to remain in America. And when they voluntarily returned to Mexico. This would open up lower cost housing.."

I agree with you on border control, and I'm definitely on the conservative side on illegal immigration issues.  Trouble is, if you voice a certain few opinions, you're labeled a "leftist."  This is nuts and it has to stop.

People who gamble on real estate appreciation and lose...  no tears cried by me.  You (they) wanted fast, easy, BIG money without lifting one damn finger of work for it, and in most cases, borrowed someone else's money to buy those house-sized gambling chips.

Got burned because you were greedy and freakin' lazy?  Serves ya right.

My whining?   I see..it's "whining" when I make comments about beating a dead horse but it's "discussion"  or "commentary" when you or others post your feelings about a subject.

Yes..I see..now it all makes sense.  Silly me.

H4F..of course it was a joke..you're young enough to be my son.

I know it was a joke, Nance.  It was just a golden opportunity to boast about my good-as-gold marriage.  :-)

The inference that there's a relationship between marriage and squabbling led me to proudly annouce, "not in our marriage!:

"The inference that there's a relationship between marriage and squabbling led me to proudly annouce, "not in our marriage!:"

Congratulations..you are definitely in the minority.  Squabbling doesn't mean fighting though.  It just means a difference of opinion and voicing it.  Hopefully, couples will have enough difference in personalities that they will each have different ideas about some things and will voice them.  And hopefully, be secure enough in their relationship that they CAN squabble and not fight.

I heard a marriage specialist on TV once say that people who want someone "just like them" won't have much af an interesting life.  He said that when he wakes up in the morning and rolls over to his wife..he doesn't want to look at another "him."  That tickled me.

Honestly though..I'm glad you have a happy marriage.  It's a good thing to hear.

Yes..I see..now it all makes sense. Silly me.