You are wasting your time in Backwardsfield.  Between Panama-Buena Vista , BCSD and Kern High School, these people only care for their jobs not the the well being of the student.  They are still using teaching methods from the 50's, 1850's!

Until somehow we can change the leadership, it will remain the same.  Just look at Panama Buena Vista-The board is comprised of people very closely associated with the district.  They refuse to "think out of the box"  Their mantra is-Make no Waves. 

Look at the Kern High School District.  Instead of moving into the 21 century they are stuck in the 19th. 

I truly feel sorry for the students.

If they were teaching the kids by the old standards, the kids would actually be getting an education. Today, they're only teaching the kids to pass the mandated tests, in order to get their federal money.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. With a few exceptions, most recent Teachers do it because it's an easy degree to earn in College, you get Summer months off and you don't have to sweat. If you don't believe me, check out the requirements for earning a degree in Elementery Education. Then compare it with the requirements for earning an degree in,........say Engineering, any discipline, pick one. Then, look at the requirements to earn an EDd (Doctoral Degree in Education) and compare them with the requirements to earn a PHd (Doctoral Degree in Philosophy). You'll see what I mean. It's a joke.  We can all thank the Teachers Union for the problems in the education field.

Where do all of the College Graduates go, who have a little bit of drive? They go into Industry, where they can earn a decent living. Those people aren't afraid to be held accountable for their output, because they can actually perform.

If we doubled the pay of Teachers, fired all of the current Teachers and made them re-apply for their positions, along with everyone else, you'd be suprised just how many current Teachers would be replaced by (more qualified) people coming out of Industry, who would apply for teaching jobs. Would you rather have a High School Math Teacher who came straight out of College to teach Math, or a 20 year Engineer who has a passion for showing the kids just how that math is applied in the real world? Maybe the Engineer could light the fire in our kids. It's for sure that their previous career would be notworthy enough to earn a little respect in the classroom.

I'd LOVE to teach kids the application and importance of Mathematics. I'm an old Hot Hodder, Car Builder and Motorcycle Racer. I've also got my financial "ducks in a row". I can't afford the pay cut, to go into teaching....................I've run into a lot of people like me out there, over the years. I've also run into A LOT of educators and school administrators who I'm not impressed with.

Now watch, I'll get flamed by a bunch of "Teachers" who feel threatened....................................... .........

What's going to happen once Bush leaves office? Will NCLB become null and void?

One can only hope. No Child Left Behind only serves to dumb down American education and make schools vie for federal funds with test scores that really don't say a thing. Instead of raising education standards in a effort to offer better education, they have dropped them to the lowest common denominator. NCLB turns "equal opportunity for education for all students" to "equal outcome for all students". Like it or not, not every child can have the same intelligence or learning capability, just like not all kids can afford designer clothes. It is just a fact of life, and lowering education standards will not change that. It will only ascertain that our high school graduates will be increasingly unprepared for college in the coming years.

And, yes, they are not required to count scores for ESL students.

Ghost.  I'm with you until "they are not required to count scores for ESL students."  At most school sites, that is the subgroup that puts them into Program Improvement unless the school has a low ESL population.  This is from the CDE:

TonyH...If you would love to teach kids the application and importance of math, why don't you?  Is it because becoming a teacher isn't as easy as you think?  Is it because motivating kids isn't as easy as people would lead you to believe?  Is it because teachers aren't paid what they are really worth?  Is it because you know some really good teachers have their hands tied by NCLB's unrealistic standards.

I'm not threatened by you by the way.  I know the reality of teaching.  I know that it is easy for non-teachers to think they have all the answers, even if they aren't willing to do anything real about the problems except hit the blogs every so often.   If you are really that convinced of your ability to change the world, then take the plunge.  Otherwise, stop bad-mouthing my peers.

Can anybody point to a country that has 100% success rate with all kids regardless of language barriers, developmental disabilities, or learning disorders?  Be sure to exclude countries that weed out individuals who are clearly not cutting it by expelling them from the whole system...we don't do that.  Also exclude countries that do not have at least two major languages spoken by at least 30% of the population (and that's a low estimate for this area).  About 1/3 of my students come from homes where another language is the primary language, yet they are not given credit for being bilingual; they are labeled as underperforming because they are behind in their second language.    Include only countries that educate ALL students, not just boys or the children of the people that can afford for the children to be at school. 

While we're comparing, how many states have standards as high as California's?  Is it possible our numbers look so bad because we are trying to teach a grade ahead of other states?  Really.  Talk to teachers.  Kindergarten teachers are teaching what used to be first grade material.  6th grade teachers are teaching what used to be 7th grade material.  I really wish I could share with you some of the questions that appear on the standardized tests.  It would be a real eye opener.  If we're going to have a fully informed debate about NCLB, then testing companies need to be willing to let adults compare the tests that are used in various states and tests that were used in the past.  You would then see just how challenging the tests really are.  I suspect there is a sizable chunk of the adult population of Bakersfield that wouldn't pass the 8th grade test (or even the 6th grade test).  Given the number of parents that are hands off with sixth grade math homework because they don't know the math, I think the debate would change significantly if people really looked at what's being tested at each grade level (and just glancing at the standards for CA won't get you to that informed point).

Anonymous,

I’m not teaching right now, because quite frankly, I can’t afford the 50+% pay cut. Maybe in a few years, when I retire from Industry, I'll be set for it.

I’m a firm believer in Douglas McGregor’s X-Y Theory. I’ve seen it hold true time and time again. The vast majority of people fall into the “X” category. In all of my years, I’ve only run into a small handful of “Y” category people, and NONE of them were kids. I’ve only run into two kids out of hundreds and hundreds, who exhibited a Sociopath type behavior. 99.999% of all kids have a conscience and genuinely want to do right things. Adults are quite a different story…. There are, however, a lot of kids who haven’t been taught what those are yet. THAT, my friend, is a problem.

Motivating kids is easier than motivating adults because their thought process is still very basic. Complex thought comes with brain maturity and years of education and life’s experiences. Even when the brain reaches physical maturity, it takes several years to learn the thinking skills required.

I’ve also learned how to LISTEN to kids. Their communication skills aren’t as developed either. Listening and completely understanding kids is a learned skill. Too many adults (teachers and parents included) don’t even care to take the time to learn these skills. All too often, adults over thirty (teachers and parents included) don’t listen to, or understand what a kid is asking or telling them. A closed information loop is a much more effective learning environment (Teacher talks, kid listens…….Kid talks, Teacher listens,…..repeat process until understanding is achieved).

I’m not a big fan of SOME of the stuff in NCLB, but there are some good parts too.

There are some excellent teachers in the system. Those who have a genuine calling and passion to educate the next generation of “World Changers” are worth their weight in gold. These teachers don’t have a problem with what I say. Most of them tend to agree with me. If you consider the other ones (The No-Loads in the classroom) to be your peers, then so be it. I will keep hammering until things change…..

TonyH...I stand by what I said before...If you are not willing to do what we do for the pay we do it for, then you need to back off the insulting tone. 

Just for the record, how many times have you actually been in a classroom in the past year?

How about 2 or 3 times a month, meeting with my kids' teachers?

I also work with a lot of kids in other organizations in the community.

mcdougle...sorry, you are right, I misunderstood my source. ESL students are definitely counted. Thanks for the heads-up.

The general idea behind NCLB is good, but the intentions, unfortunately, did not have the desired result.

I heartily commend those children--AND adults--who endeavour to learn English upon emigrating to our country. It is those who refuse to attempt to do so that I take exception to.

TonyH,

I should have been more specific...how many times have you been in a classroom when other kids are present and learning, not fun, is the goal?  It is easy to motivate kids when there is fun to be had.  One of the things I get very frustrated by is that NCLB has caused my bosses to demand more time on language and math skills and less time on subjects that can be very interesting, like science, art, and history, but then my peers and I get slammed for being boring.  It's a can't win situation at the moment.  Reading caustic comments from people who aren't familiar with everything we have to deal with just makes it harder, especially for those of us who work very hard for about 50% less pay than you apparently do.

I know I'm two days late for this discussion (and a dollar short) but just in case tonyh checks this dialogue again, I want to chime in.

First, tonyh, if you leave industry someday, become a teacher, and get vested in the State Teacher's Retirement System, be prepared to kiss your future social security payments good-bye - well, at least until you're 72 and then you'll only get $20 or $30 a month.  It seems to be a special penalty for teachers - some sort of government punishment for devoting part of your life to the private sector (or working and paying into social security every summer as I did) and not working exclusively as an instructor.

You state that you will lose 50 percent of what you make in industry by teaching.  So you must be making somewhere over $60K now.  I don't know how long you were employed to get to that figure, but be prepared for the fact that no matter how hard you work at it, or how much time you devote to the job, it'll take you probably 20 years in teaching to get back up to that figure.  Keep in mind that in your present job you probably can transfer to another company and maintain the same, if not higher salary.  But if you are a teacher and wish to transfer to another school district, be prepared to take a huge pay cut.

Let's say you jump through all the hoops and take the test (to prove that you are a "highly qualified teacher," you are hired and are warm and cozy in your own classroom.  Now, you carry out your philosophy of "Listen to the kids."  You talk, they talk, you talk - the principal walks in.  The next day you are in the principal's office trying to convince him that this is the way to engage the students and he is bluntly telling you that there is no time in the curriculum for "conversations."  You might persist, but by March 15th you receive a "Nonreelect" notice which basically means that you can "work with a lot of kids in other organizations in the community" but you won't be teaching in that district - and there won't be anything you can do about it.  For two years, a principal can let a new teacher go for any reason or for no reason.

I appreciate your optimism and idealism.  But you gotta walk a "whole" mile in those shoes.  As anonymous points out, it's not enough to meet with a teacher (even several time a month), or visit a classroom for a special presentation.  If you are really serious about leaving industry and teaching, may I suggest this plan first.  Sign up with the Kern County Superintendent of Schools as a substitute teacher.  Use some of your vacation days from industry to substitute in classrooms.  After seeing things from the inside, then, make your decision.

This all may seem like an oversimplification - but you started it.  Public Education today is a quagmire and it will take a much more innovative approach than NCLB offers to bring about needed reform.

     I find all of these discussions/comments about NCLB very interesting/ amusing/ frustrating/ aggravating/ confusing. As a teacher of special needs children, I have a different take on the subject than some.  My students are taking the same tests, on grade-level, as other students. It does not matter that some of my students are not able to read. NCLB (as California interprets it) is blind to the differences among students. To be in my classroom, a student must be two or more years behind in reading and math. Most of my students are further behind than that. Asking these children to take a grade-level test is not reasonable. However, we do it anyway.

     (For those who feel that my students should be reading on grade-level, please remember that these children have documented learning disabilities. They may have a brain injury, mental retardation (mild), language processing disorders, or one of a myriad of other problems.  They come to my room so that we can focus, in a small group setting, on improving their skills.)

     It never ceases to amaze me when people from outside of the education community take potshots at teachers. Give up your wonderful, higher paying job, and come join us in the classroom.  When you have been there for a year or two, been spit at, cursed by at students and parents alike, spent your weekends planning lessons to meet the requirements of NCLB, stayed late an average of 4 days per week, made phone calls to parents in the evenings, spent your own time grading papers and writing letters to parents (Don't forget having over half of these letters translated into Spanish), and given up part your "summer off" to attend classes and seminars to aid you in becoming a better teacher and part of the rest of it planning for the coming year; then maybe you will have room to talk. Teachers work very hard to present all children with a good education and we do it for less than most professionals with similar educations are earning.  We do this because we love it and we love the kids.  Believe me, we aren't doing it to get rich.

     Becoming a teacher is becoming more difficult every year. It takes more than having a degree in something to be able to teach. I have a bachelor's degree. I have also taken the MSAT (Now the CSET)an assessment of knowledge in math, science, PE, language arts, reading, geography, history, and art; the CBEST - an assessment of writing/math; and the RICA - an assessment of my knowledge of reading instruction.  I have two credentials and most of my master's degree. Am I done with school? NO WAY!!! I have to continue taking classes to maintain my credentials. Being a teacher is difficult all the way around.  This is not a complaint - I would do it all again just to be in the classroom.

  The teachers in my school are finestkind.  We all work hard everyday to teach your children. We do whatever it takes to make sure that all children get a good education and, when possible, have a bit of fun. There are things we would love to change about NCLB, curriculum, standards, etc... but we don't have that option. We do our best with what is put before us, and frankly, we do a good job.

"Stop Assembly Line Schooling" by Bill McDougle was solid-gold. Why are most local officials are still silent on No Child Left Behind? I know we can't do much in Kern County to influence Washington, but we do have a lot to say about who represents us here. If we can get straight answers from local officials on where they stand on NCLB, then come November it'll be easier to know who to give the boot to and who to usher in to patch up the damage already done.

Kingpin..Great link.  Thanks for posting that.  I have two teachers in my family and sent the link to them.

BTW...one is a high school math teacher and the other is a middle school science teacher.

Kingpen,

You're exactly right about the need for those who do not blindly follow. The guy in the back of the room, who will openly, respectfully and intelligently disagree is adding more value to the plan than all others in the room, combined. In my forum, he WILL be heard.

I'm one of those people who go through life secretly mathematically analyzing everything. It's seldom that I share these thoughts because normal people will look at me like a freak. They don't understand, but I do.......When things don't add up, I'll raise an eyebrow.

The whole "math is boring" sentiment seems to come from all places. I've seen fellow Engineers, when shown a Calculus Functional Model, roll their eyes and shake their head. It's very prevalent. I personally, don't find it boring. My problem is a failure to understand how to motivate people to study the Mathematics and become truly proficient, when they're completely repulsed by the idea. Math Snobbery only turns people off more. Knowing this, I try not to go any farther with people than they're capable of understanding. I've studied math through the graduate level and into postgraduate theory. I dare say that I'm not undereducated in the Mathematics, Physics and Psychology areas.(lol)

These are some of my thoughts:

There are certain things of general interest within society. The "How and Why" behind many of these things are somewhat easily explained with Math and Physics. Most people have at least, a basic curiosity that could possibly be linked over by teaching them how to figure out "How and Why" for simple things. Once they feel the power of true understanding and the ability to explain to others, their curiosity in more complicated things just may develop into an interest in Mathematics itself. There is a great sense of self-empowerment associated with the ability to understand and explain. When we learn to swim, we first start by becoming comfortable with the water..............................by walking on the bottom of a shallow pool. Walking in waste-deep water isn't very efficient either, but associating the water with the comfortable feeling of walking, opens up a new door for us.

 What I see today, is a rapid reduction in the number of Science related students. We actually need more of them, not less, if we expect to continue to advance as a civilization. How do we, as the current generation of practitioners, motivate those coming behind us to study Math and Science? It's obvious that what we're doing today, isn't working...........

A year ago my granddaughter graduated from CalState and at the ceremony, the university official who spoke told us of a great need for teachers in all the sciences including math.  He encouraged more students to get into those fields as the teachers in those fields never want for a job.

I've never been interested in math further than the need to know and I suspect people are sort of geared for those areas (sciences) or they aren't .  My grandson has always been interested in, and good at math and tutored high school students while he was working his way through college.  His wife has interests in the medical field and consequently is a science whiz.  Not all of us have that ability or interest, and I'm not sure teachers can inspire the ones who aren't.

My daughter aced calculus in high school but has always excelled in the literary areas too.  My son seems to be intersted in the sciences as they apply to his personal interests but also excells in literature.  It's not a scientific study by any means but it seems like, in our family, the ones who excell in the sciences read for education and information.  Those of us who don't find the sciences to be our cup of tea, read for pleasure and intertainment as well as education. 

Thank God for the differences since sitting around discussing quantum theory, trig, calculus, or any of the other sciences would bore me to tears.  And, contrary to the belief of some on here, I ain't no dummy.

Thanks Kingpen, I didn't know about that IBM program.

I have no problem teaching people who are hungry for knowledge. I really enjoy it. My challenge, thus far, is to understand how to convert those who don't care to learn. They're more than capable, they just have no interest. Until I can come up with, or discover the solution to this, I'll not teach below the Collegiate level. I taught four or five night classes several years ago. When my position at work changed, I no longer had the time. I still find the time to invest in the up and coming generations, in my local community.

There are too many Professional Teachers (no applications experience in Industry) out there who can do that. They teach the easy students and ignore the difficult ones.......... I can't do that. I'd just be adding to the problem. I, myself, was a difficult student all the way through High School, so I've seen this from both perspectives.

Over the years, I've asked several High School Math (Professional) Teachers if they have ever actually applied the math (Geometry, Trig, Statistics, Calculus) that they teach to anything in the real world. Overwhelmingly, the answer is usually NO. I once asked a High School Calculus Teacher what a practical and reasonable application would be. The answer that I received didn't surprise me. He said, "I'm not sure". I dumped a few practical examples on him to think about. I'll agree that the the examples that I gave, could be solved through the use of more conventional math, but it would require WAY more time and energy.

All too often, kids have no interest in a particular subject because they lack exposure to areas of life where these things are important. "Why do I have to learn this junk? It doesn't matter. What's it good for?" Being a Teacher, have you ever heard this from your students? How did you answer? Was your answer effective, or did it just bounce off of them like a foreign language? I've experienced both. When the latter occurs, I feel like a complete failure. Now, I usually follow up by asking that they allow me to think on it for awhile before trying again to answer their question. Those that ask "Why", are the most reachable. That "Why", isn't rhetorical, it's interrogative. They're looking for an answer that they understand. All too often, we, as adults, give them an answer that WE understand and call it a day. That's our failure to communicate, not their failure to understand.

I wish that there were more teachers who would spend the time to pull a student through the thought process, as you did in your example. Unfortunately, I don't see many who do.

The indifference towards learning certain subjects usually stems from the Parents. This is learned from a very young age. This leaves it up to the Teachers and the Community to compensate for it. That's a hard thing, since a child's greatest teacher is a Parent, through their actions. I understand this.

I currently live in West Tennessee, and I regularly run into Teachers that would make you cringe. A month ago, I went to a High School award ceremony where an English Teacher have a 10 minute speech and broke almost every grammar rule in the book.

A few years ago, when my oldest Son was in 7th grade, his Math Teacher chose not to hand out or teach from the available Math Book. She ended up teaching my Son and his classmates an incorrect Order of Operation. I caught it while helping him with his homework. My first thought was that he got his wires crossed while taking notes, so I corrected him. Three days later were Parent/Teacher Conferences and I mentioned it to his Teacher. She quickly and shortly told me that I was wrong, and that he understood what she had taught. Looking around and seeing several hundred copies of the Math Text in a book shelf, I opened one and showed her Order of Operation in the book. Then, and ONLY then, did she back off and admit that she was in error. This is irresponsible teaching. I'm not saying that all teachers are bad. I'm saying that there isn't room for ANY bad teachers in the education system. Currently, in what I do for a living, you'd better hope that I and my Colleagues are much more proficient, for the sake of your, and your loved ones' health and wellbeing. I'm in the Medical Device Industry. We design and build Surgical Implants that Surgeons use to put people back together.

These two teachers teach in the same School District, which is ranked very high within this State.

With indifference to education being taught at home, and bad teachers floating around in the system, how is the community to fix this? Since Parents and Teachers are also part of the community, this leaves the burden to the rest of us.

Where do we start?

Thanks for the Blueberry story, but it's not a real good comparison.

The blueberries coming into the public education system come off of the loading dock into grade "K". Public education doesn't start with a 100% fresh batch each school year. By the time they reach High School, they've already been shaped and molded for 8 years by public education, and conditioned to react to public education. Now, I'm not going to deny that Parents and the Community have a lot of effect on them, but personal experiences, at that age, also have a lot of effect on their attitude toward education. Often times, a good Parent or trusted adult can alter their perception of experiences initially perceived as bad. That's why I think that Parents need to talk to their kids about their day, everyday.

Bad experiences in school = bad attitude. This wall is built one brick at a time, and we all help to either build it, or tear it down.

Where there is no accountability, there is no performance. There are ways of holding the Teachers and the Community accountable, and it should be happening. But, without holding the students hostage, how do we hold the Parents accountable? How do we reach over/past the kids and get to the adults hiding behind them?

My kids do OK in school because education is a priority in our household. They also know that I won't put up with ANY misbehavior at school. Their Teachers all know that I'll stand behind them 100%, if they do their part. My kids also know that if they receive discipline at school, they get it worse when they get home.

I looked at the report that you linked to. It's hard to compare funding at a glance, due to differences in cost of living, etc.

It looks like Tennessee has fewer Pupils/Teacher, but more Title 1 students. California has 3 times the number of students in the system. It also looks like performance to national average is very close to the same, if not very slightly higher in Tennessee. It's the first time that I've seen this report and I didn't take a lot of time to digest it. I could be looking at it wrong, or missing a bunch.