Sioux

Good points. Most of us have the good sense to have insurance on our homes but, I feel for those that don't. If I ever own a home on the mountain areas, it's sure to be on high ground

Have a good evening.

Murphy

 In the (edited) words of my Marine Corps Drill Instructor:

"NO SCREAMING EAGLE POO-POO!!!"

Where is it all at?

Great points. 

 Crawl back into your can and stay there Poopeye

It's not to the advantage of the enemies of America to point such things out sioux. And this certainly does not sit well with the advocates for professional victims.

Alright you [edit.], here's the difference between the two:
 

NOLA had one of the largest population of people in poverty in the nation. These are people without the ability to buy plane tickets or even bus tickets to evacuate their families (not that there were enough planes, tranes, or busses to take everyone anyways).

NOLA had public transit, meaning people didn't have a reason to own a private car or truck. Makes it tough to leave town when you don't have any way to leave.

Sandbagging levies (walls) would have been impossible, even with the few days lead-time they had. Not that they had the resources available even if it was a possibility.

NOLA hadn't flooded like that ever. The midwest floods every decade or so.

The FEMA trailers were moved into the midwest ahead of time. It was months before the trailers showed up in NOLA.

The (federal) government claimed they had no idea that tens of thousands of people were still in NOLA Superdome days after Katrina hit. The feds were all over the midwest before the floods even hit.

NOLA citizens were prevented from leaving in many cases.

People in the midwest have been paid to relocate out of floodplains already, and many more will be paid after this flood.

The midwest flooding recedes on its own. NOLA had to be pumped out, and in many cases it took weeks to get the waters down. Many areas of NOLA still don't have electricity, let alone social services.



How many dead bodies did you see lying on streets in the midwest?

How many National Guard troops were helping in the midwest before, during, and after the floods?

How many people said the midwest deserved the storms because they had parades?

How many times did Bush fly over the midwest before finally landing and seeing the extent of damage? Did Bush claim he had no idea that the midwest would flood, even though footage was later revealed of him receiving briefings on that very subject?

Were any midwest governors left to handle their disasters on their own?

Where was "heckuva-job Brownie" during the midwest floods?



Your racism is as transparent as your ignorance, sioux. If you're comparing NOLA and the midwest floods, it only goes to show how little you really know. Mission accomplished.

Sioux is racist, Mattloch?

Once again, you are 180 degrees out of phase...............................

We will hear about the  mid-west floods next time they occur~"if i had a dime "for every time they did flood ,I'd be a rich woman.Perhaps because it happens so often,they are better prepared.In my lifetime,this was the first time New Orleans was devastated.There are many differences,it is like comparing apples and oranges .

My dealings with grief have shown me that pain is pain~ and a disaster is a disaster,no matter where it occurs.

spam code: RUE EU...who makes these things up

The people of NOLA were well aware of the risks of living there. I never lived there and even I had heard for years that this was coming. They were just assuming the government would bail them out and we know what happens when you assume.

Still, the state government shoulders the majority of the blame for the lack of action. But the people of NOLA shoulder the responsibility for its repair and renovation.

I don't see any racism implied here. More along the lines of urban mentality versus rural mentality.

The entire Army Corps of Engineers  "Mississippi River Containment" project is and always was BS. Another example of the Govt trying to intervene in nature. Anyohne that has lived in the delta area can tell you that.

And NO is a bowl surrounded by water with the inevitable consequences.

Anyone who has lived there can tell you that too...............

How that makes Sioux a racist only Mattloch can explain though (well Adam and others can too I guess........)

[edit.].   Now there's a fine way to start out trying to persuade people you have a better POV.

The whole point goes to mentality not population count.  It goes to value.  When people don't value themselves or their surroundings they crap in them.  And that's just what the looters in NOLA did.  The people in the flooded midwest value their land and their homes and that's a fact.

Now I guess I'M a racist [edit.] too because I expect people to help themselves...not help themselves to all the mdse they can carry.  That's one little item you didn't address Matt.

Next time you accuse a good man of being racist, why don't you try and learn what the term really means Mattloch --

I implore you............. (or is that just too much to expect from a Knee Jerk  "Know it All" Lib?)

Looks like everyone rebutted everything but the looting.

s810..you spoke too soon.  :-)

"I don't see any racism implied here. More along the lines of urban mentality versus rural mentality."

I don't see any racism implied, either.  I agree; it's the "I'm dependent upon someone to allow me to live" mentality (more commonly urban) versus the "I will depend upon myself" mentality (more commonly rural).

I recently wrote two posts on a related subject, observing that the "I'm dependent upon someone to allow me to live" mentality is an unhealthful departure from nature.  Rural living remains closer to nature, therefore the "take care of yourself" thinking is more prevalent there.

Mattloch actually makes a number of good points.

If New York City (as an example) went through a major natural disaster, you would see more similarities to New Orleans - everyone with the means would get out, while those without money or private transportation wouldn't have a prayer.

Witbee - the issue with the levees was a Government problem.  The Army Corps. of Engineers built those Levees and while a U.S. District Judge recently ruled that the Corps. did nothing wrong regarding those levees, the Judge also stated that:

"Often, when the King can do no wrong, his subjects suffer the consequences. Such is the case here."

http://www.nola.com/news/in...

To sit there and say that all people were well aware of the risks is also a bit erroneous.  Go into any city and you'll find that the lowest poverty level are usually the least educated.  Do you really think that the average min.-wage worker in NO really knew how dangerous it was to be living below sea level in an area that might one day flood? Chances are, they had more important things (in their minds) to worry about, like putting food on the table.  Even if they knew the risks, what do you think they would have been able to do? 

In regards to the storm's approach, to get far enough inland, they would need either private transportation (a car, for example), or they would need to utilize a plane, train or bus.  Since most of those who did not evacuate were living either near or below the poverty line, I highly doubt they could afford to leave, much less afford a roof over their head if they did evacuate!  In fact, many of those who died were elderly in nursing homes.  If I remember correctly, only 3 nursing homes out of at least 50 evacuated!

I'd also like to point out that Hurricanes are far more devestating, dangerous and deadly than any flood that the midwest can suffer through.  How many of you here have been through a lot of tropical weather?  I've witnessed firsthand what Hurricanes can do both physically and mentally to people.  No offense to anyone here, but as I stated in a post last month, if you've not been through these storms before, you really have no credibility to be sitting here arguing about them.

Good point ApolloDawn~ that nicely explains the reaction difference.I am sure attitudes vary wildly.  

The "attack" mode between some parties here has been going on for so long now,the pattern is self perpetuating.Hence the use of "flame" words. 

It seems to me that the "racist" views were expressed by those that held that poor people who are black could not be expected to help themselves while poor people that are white should and do help themselves. 

I'm not going to try to argue every point Matt made but a couple do stand out in my eyes as totally asinine.  What condition would the trailers have been in if they had been moved in prior to the hurricane and also sending in National Guard or any organization if you are expecting a class IV or V hurricane to an area with limited egress not only would stop the evacuation but would endanger to troops.  Just how many people blamed this on their parades?  Nobody respected the potential, most importantly the local and state government.  Maybe why they voted in a Republican Gov.  The federal response was so disconnected and inept we all were embarrassed I  think.  We have people here in Kern that could have handled that with more expertise and better results.

I knew a neigbor who`s son`s girlfriend once dated a racist and had been employed in the racist business for 20 yrs, He had never been to New Orleans but was in the midwest once.

Apollo - good point.

People's perceptions on help from the Government revert back to how the Government helps the people.

robertcarter - many Southeastern cities have a dispropotionately higher amount of blacks who are poor vs. whites.  It has nothing to do with blacks not being able to help themselves and everything to do with failed Government programs (such as urban housing, i.e. project housing), which have had an opposing effect on the black population as to what the Government had intended. 

Siouxcity---

Well, to actually have to sit and read that was rather disturbing giving this day and age, but hey, this is bakersfield! But for you to say it was "blacks" out stealing plasma's, booz, liquor, etc is rather sad. I recall seeing quite a few white people doing the same thing, with carts full of items. You cant compare the two in no way, shape or form. The midwest is known for having these floods and yet people stay there. Saying rain is coming and saying a Category 5 hurricane is coming is wayyyy different. Yea, they said to get out, but most dont have the funds to even get a bus ticket out, less known any other way out! But the reason why New Orleans is so different, is because the government flat out did not respond. They knew Katrina was coming 7days prior to and no help was done prior to her coming or even remotely after. Its real easy to play the race card in situations like this, just when you feel like stooping to that level, make sure you address both sides!

Like Nancy said, it's all about values.  I was raised to do for myself.  Always will and always have.  If it is your values to wait for someone to rescue you, then you'll wait a long time. 

MILITARY - you're correct - Federal, State and Local Gov's didn't respond as they should have. 

If NO's had been under the State of Florida's control, for example, I'm rather positive that more people would have been evacuated, becase the State would have already had action plans in place prior to knowledge of a storm's approach.

To take a disaster like this and break it down to one simplistic "reason",be it "values" or "racism" or " they" are just like that...is easy quick and convenient. Unfortunately,in my experience, life is not like that.It is all about nuances,your upbringing,what you learn along the way and what you leave behind.

We live in Bakersfield, most of us any way. We know the air sucks, traffic sucks, and their are numerous gangs growing by the day, we also know there is a dam east of us that is keeping us from living in a lake. We KNOW this and continue to live here, its our choice. As far as the people not being educated enough to say they didnt know the risk does not make sense to me. Im not justifing what the Govt did or failed to do, I'm just saying we have a choice, and know the consequences.  

Grizzly - there are many differences between Bakersfield and New Orleans.

If the Dam in Isabella broke, while most of Bakersfield would see some flooding, it would not be as widespread, at would be more contained to low-lying areas near the riverbed.  The demographics of this city are much different from New Orleans, as we have a much higher proportion of middle class to upper-middle class families who can afford to evacuate if needed. In general,  people would be able to evacuate rather quickly from potential hazards. The local Government here recognizes the potential threats and is currently working on disaster preparedness plans (unlike the local Government in NO). New Orlean's had a 2000 census population density of 2864.3 persons per square mile to Bakersfield's 2184.4, which also makes a big difference when speaking of evacuations.

Another important point to make is that I'm pretty positive it's always been a lot easier to obtain affordable flood insurance here, while it was difficult to get flood insurance in NO even prior to Katrina.

Gee, Mattloch, weren't you flailing your arms and screaming a couple of days ago about Chico being "offensive" in his posts? Something about him telling you where to stick that pipe...

 It has nothing to do with blacks not being able to help themselves and everything to do with failed Government programs (such as urban housing, i.e. project housing), which have had an opposing effect on the black population as to what the Government had intended. 

The opposing effect being that the government programs created a group of people in that area that are not willing to help themselves.

People are products of their environment.

Far too broad a statement. By your reckoning, I should still be a field worker.

I didn't mean to under value the Katrina disaster. My point was to say people know the consequences of their living arrangements.  

My favorite excuse..."Products of our enviroment" . At least until you know better.

I do not see this as a race issue.  I do feel however, as some of you have said, that in any major disaster, those that are willing to rely on themselves and lookout for their friends are going to get through a whole lot better than others.  I would imagine that many of you, like myself, have parents that migrated here in the 30's, dirt poor with nothing, and ended up doing pretty well for themselves.  I'm not even trying compare the dust bowl with NO, but it does go to show you that rich or poor, if you want to, you can fix your life.

The inability of the New Orleans levees to prevent flooding in the event of such a major hurricane storm disaster has been well known and documented for decades. Yet people chose to gamble on living there anyway just as the propensity for tornadoes and flooding in the midwest is also widely known to heartland residents.

People choose to live in floodplains, earthquake zones and other potentially hazardous areas in the hope that they will beat the odds and escape personal disaster.

One of the reasons the poverty level in new Orleans is so high is that a large part of the land in the most likely areas to flood is inexpensive due to the high likelihood of flooding and the slumlike conditions that prevail there.

People can own or a home in the New Orleans Ninth Ward floodplain for comparative peanuts.

The wealthier in the City tend to live on higher ground where the real estate is more expensive and out of financial reach of many of New Orleans' poorer residents.

So, of course you didn't see on television a whole lot of middle or upper economic class blacks or whites affected by the flooding that resulted from the failure of the levees.

To further exacerbate the disastrous effects of the hurricane, the folks in the lower floodplain areas were uninsured, not only for economic reasons but because flood insurance coverage in known high risk flood areas is either extremely expensive or more likely unavailable at all from insurers.

While it is extremely unfortunate that anyone lost their homes and were uninsured for their loss, you can hardly blame insurers for either refusing to offer coverage in such high risk areas, charging a lot of money for the coverage or limiting available coverage to wind damage only.

There is certainly shared blame in the New Orleans disaster between those that chose to live there anyway despite the possible peril and the lack of foresight of local, state and federal government to properly address the levee issues over the past several decades.

But while it is difficult for some to find sympathy for flood victims who chose to stay in a hazardous area, there is no excusing FEMA and the federal government for its mismanagement of its emergency services program.

And there is plenty of blame to go around.

But to denigrate poor New Orleans residents for seeking timely assistance is unconscionable.

Kudos are surely appropriate for Midwest residents for their fortitude along with our collective sympathy.

But black, white, poor or wealthy neither can the pain, loss and suffering of New Orleans flood victims in all good conscience be dismissed or ignored.

Local planning.............

An old Cherokee chief was teaching his grandson about life...

"A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.
"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves.

"One is evil - he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, self-doubt, and ego.

"The other is good - he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith.

"This same fight is going on inside you - and inside every other person, too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather,
"Which wolf will win?"

The old chief simply replied,
"The one you feed."

I don't think you have a good comparison.  The flooding in the Midwest is very different from a levy system failure in New Orleans.  New Orleans was evidence of a failure to invest in infrastructure.  The inability of FEMA to respond adequately is evident of the nepotism of positions and poor planning in the management of our government.  We are in over our necks in financial committment with our involvement with Iraq and Afghanistan.  In listening to NPR, it was impressive to find out that California has recruited foreign assistance to combat the wildfires. 

A more adequate comparison to New Orleans would be the response to the Tsunami in Southeast Asia or the earthquake in Pakistan.  These countries did not have looting.  They also do not have the same government support systems in place as we do.  However, these cultures are different from our own.  There is a much more communal mentality and people help one another.  I remember seeing pictures of Indonesia of Christians and Muslims helping one another.  That does not happen every day in Indonesia.  But, in the face of calamity, we see the genuine nature of many people and the culture they live in.

The looting and bad behavior evident in New Orleans is less tied to race.  Rather, it is tied to poverty and culture.  The problem is that while we live in a de-segragated country where all people have access to education and the general pursuit of happiness, there is still racism.  Somehow, the most poor and destitute come from families which were poor and destitute.  Bridging out of poverty is a difficult task.  Changing a mindset is not easy...it is revolutionary.

witbee - my point was that the Government has made it easy for those under the poverty line to latch onto assistance programs.  Think of it like a wild animal - the more you feed it, the more it learns to depend on you to be fed.  No longer will the animal venture out into the wild - not because it can't, but because a habit has been formed.

If we were to completely overhaul assistance programs (and even get rid of some), we might be able to change the mentality of those who have grown accustomed to taking advantage of the system.

Alrighty, here I go.....

As to the "racism" claim-

sioux: "As you watch the flooding in the Midwest, have you noticed that there are no farmers running around with stolen plasma TVs or holding stolen liquor over their heads? There is no looting or yelling, 'Where's Bush?', 'Where's FEMA?, Where's my check?' or, 'Why isn't the government out here saving me and my farm?'"

I'm sure you are shocked, SHOCKED! every time you eat at a restaurant with black people and not a single one screams "MFer I want more iced tea."

The simple fact is in NOLA people were left without food or water for days or weeks. I'm sure the first thing stores ran out of was water and food. People taking liquor may have been a result of that being the only consumable liquid left. Also, if people were looting, that means that the social fabric had broken down, and police officers weren't around, wouldn't it? How many police officers left (or were ordered to leave) the midwest towns that flooded?

The racial makeup of the areas (long before the disasters hit them) dictated what you were seeing on tv, not any inherent propensity of any race to act a certain way during a natural disaster.

The entire myth that (poor) (black) (uneducated) (urban) people in NOLA simply sat there and expected "the gubmint" to "save" them, while the ("poor") (white) (rural) people in the midwest "rolled up their sleeves to save themselves and their neighbors" is racist. There are more poor rural whites enrolled in government assistance programs than urban minorities (of all colors). The levies in NOLA collapsing were entirely different than the earthen levies in the midwest. You can't sandbag a ten to fifteen foot wall with sandbags. Not only that, how many sandbags were (made) available in NOLA? If the people wanted to "help" themselves, was it even possible? People in the midwest have become all-too familiar with sandbagging (due to poor government planning allowing people to live in low-lying areas, despite repeated floods). How often have people sandbagged in NOLA? You can't say the people there were "unwilling" to "help themselves". You can rightly claim (as I do) that not only was it not an option that was given them, it wasn't one that would have worked even if it was offered to them.

Sioux (or anybody that agrees with them) didn't answer my questions. Comparing apples to oranges isn't valid, and to do so shows either an unintentional or wholly intentional ignorance.

.

Chico, are you saying not a single Native American is racist? If you're Native, you are welcoming and understanding of every other race? Some of the most virulent racists I've known (or read) are/were NA. Not that the "white man" didn't deserve many of the claims made against them, but still... my point about sioux stating that poor blacks "act this way" while white midwesterners "act this way" was racist, just like many of the things Rev. Jeremiah Wright said were. Painting each group with such a broad brush is the product of oversimplification and ignorance.

.

And no S810, nobody rebutted anything I said about the differences between NOLA and the midwest.

.

Anglo, for you to say that the response to NOLA was well thought-out is asinine. There was very little planning put into Katrina, and certainly not to the degree you are stating. Looking back, you could say those were "lucky coincidences", but nothing more. Just as many people blames Katrina on parades as talked about a "chocolate city" and George Bush "hating poor black people". That was my response to Sioux's claims about (the lack of similar) responses to midwest flooding. You didn't have people making stupid claims about the midwest flooding, on either side (mainly because it was a fundamentally different type of disaster).

Actually Chico, it was reported (later) that most stores were looted of their water (and food) first. I'm not saying that some people looted stores of liquor solely to get drunk, but the vast majority of people were looking for food and water, not booze. But after a week or longer with no supplies, what were people supposed to drink?

Matt, I said . The federal response was so disconnected and inept we all were embarrassed I  think.  We have people here in Kern that could have handled that with more expertise and better results. 

The media portrayed the Feds as inept.  But from what I saw the locals (City, Parrish, & State governments) stole the show on ineptitude.

hmm been gone cause I woulda loved to have been on this one..number one Mattloch I'm not a racist..I'm a realist...calling me a rascist is just you sensationalizing a part of the column simply to make your point..(which stealing just to steal  is WRONG no matter where your doing it..)

number two I had a small amount of respect for you until your asinine reply here..you could have shared the same view you did without all the name calling..that reflects on your credibility as a productive element worthy of responding too..and you can stuff that pipe and I dont mean with tobacco..

people are people..disasters are disasters..people died in both of the floods no matter what the demographics were in either case..agreed the New Orleans incident being the worst of the two..there is no excuse for taking advantage of a disaster likre this and stealing what doesn't belong to you..I'm not talking about food and water.. that was a given..all the other obvious perks were just a bunch of low life's establishing a stockpile of wares to sell or use that didnt belong to them....you makin excuses for their herindous actions in my book is completly unforgivable on your part..

TracyAlk had a good point bringing up the tsunami and those poor people in Indonesia were more involved with staying alive than stealing furniture..wheres your excuse for your poor ignorant people there??(basically your description)

I  gave to the disastor relief when New Orleans was hit just like the rest of the world did..I don't feel sorry for people that live in a place that by all rights shouldn't even be there..its doomed to be under water sooner or later..you tell me why any community that lives behind a levy isnt bright enough to have a warehouse stocked to the rafters with repair equipment sych as sandbags etc is allowed to run buisness as usuual during hurricane season..NO ONE showed much brain power..

As you pointed out it had to be pumped out it doesnt drain on its own..how crazy is that to even think thats a stable environment to rebuild in?? Ive heard Atlantis was a bustling metropolis but even those residents were bright enough to say enough was enough...they should have left it flooded and built around the natural water ways instead. DUH!! I dont see you running back there buyin up propertt to be a slum lord..so even you know its a bad idea..your defense of those invloved is futile.. admit it ...or dont..Anyone with common sense knows the truth....err is that your problem?? Perhaps a lack oof..Ihear thats common amongst people wih a higher intellect..some how they loose that naturakl instinct.

Where you gonna be when that big 8 pointer hits California?? out grabbin a new stereo system? are you saying its OK to act like  one of those people just because your roof fell in?? I can guarantee my family wont be..how bout yours??