I also see how beautiful nature is and am overwhelmed with the love shared by myself and my family/friends. And I am in awe that the Creator of it all loves me!

Have a blessed day..you not so grumpy skeptic ;o)

To be truly skeptical is to have no preconceived notions of things.  Just as science has shown us that worlds do exist that were formally beyond our perception or our ability to conceive them.  For example the know it alls of Columbus's day didn't know America was even here or that atoms existed, and don't even start about quantum psychics.  The reality which has been experienced since man was first created is that the spiritual exist right along side the material.  To be truly skeptical is to release your grip on preconceived, comfortable notions and face reality as it is.  Have a blessed day and truly be skeptical;) 

Does anyone else feel that those little winky faces at the end are just a smidge condescending? anyone?

I think I became more overhwelmed as a human being when i really embraced evolution.  For so long i held on to the idea of divine creation.  I wouldn't let it up.  Because i had been taught since kindergarten that I was made in his image blah blah blah blah... you know, the whole almighty schpiel.  So when it came to embracing something that made me question all that I've ever known i was hesitant to the point of denying reality.  I think as human beings we WANT to believe in something more.  I think at times  thinking of life as an accident sort of diminishes the beauty of life, you know? But if you look at similar things are... well it tends to make sense.  most of my religious friends believe in divine evolution.  Rationalize that one folks.  I like to think of it as a finger dipped in a pond and the hand tries to shape and mold the ripples.

And with so little justification, defyinggravity.

The know-it-alls of Columbus' day were convinced that angels and demons and--let's face it--fairies existed.  I don't hold that against them--they didn't have the scientific knowledge we do today.   But for any supposedly educated person to doubt the existence of evolution, to name one example, is sad.

Everything that remains to be discovered--and there's a lot--will fit into the context of what we already know, at least as a special case.   Einstein's theories include Newton's as a special case. 

No future scientific theory will include angels, demons *OR* fairies.

Or gods.

(Added:  going back a bit farther than Columbus' day, folks were certain that Mt Olympus existed, and Zeus and Hera and that whole bunch intervened daily in our lives.  Shall we celebrate *THEIR* special knowledge-through-ignorance as well?)

 When I hold my children, I am over filled with joy, the amount of love I have for them, and them for me is overwhelming, it can make a grown man, get teary eyed. When my oldest son says to me “Daddy I love you”. The emotions I have are almost unexplainable, but glad I’m doing something right.

Aw. that's sweet. Love it to hear fathers talk like that.

Great post, thanks :)

Although normally I don't bother responding to Random.  His last comment was such a good example of turning science into a religion that it served a good intro for this article on that very subject. www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo9/9nicoll.php 

P.S. I like my smily faces;)

Way~ you normally don't respond to RF?...okay then.  ;-p

Very nice grumpy one. I try to give respect to every ones thoughts~ be they religious,skeptical or otherwise. Until they prove to me they do not respect mine.

The love we share with our children,our mates,is enough,this world is enough. Even though my sons are gone~ I still "feel" their love. That's enough also.

Someone on another thread admitted that part of their motivation for religion was based on a fear of being wrong. So I think part of the answer to your question is that there have been those preaching fire, brimstone and damnation for so long, that it's got some people scared to think otherwise.

there have been those preaching fire, brimstone and damnation for so long, that it's got some people scared to think otherwise.

Bingo.   It *IS* a form of child abuse to teach children about the mythical place called "hell."

Science deals with the real world.  Religion deals with imaginary ones.  Buffoo can no longer tell the difference.

Those "NOTW" bumper stickers amuse me.  Why don't they move, then?

Hmmm..I don't see anything in the books of law that says it IS abuse to teach children about heaven or hell. If that's the way YOU feel, fine, that's your business. I was raised in a Christian, but not religious, household. Never did much church until I was ana dult, and don't do much of it anymore. I don't need religion, I need spirituality.

My parents never taught me to fear God OR Satan and neither did my Sunday School teachers. We were taught to try and live a good life and be good to others. We were taught that God loves us, not that he is waiting to scold us. There was never any discussion, as a kid, about what Hell was in a physical sense, but only that without Christ, our souls would end up there. We were taught that to be in heaven was good, to be in Hell wasn't.

For me, today, it is about faith. I don't have to understand it all. My theory is that whatever questions I have, God will answer when i get there. I LOVE science! I am and avid amatuer astronomer and am fascinated by the discoveries that happen almost daily these days. I am a long time subscriber to Astronomy Magazine and National Geographic. I see no conflict in faith and science. I think most people these days are willing to admit that the histories in Genesis cannot be accurate. I came to that conclusion many years ago and it didn't bother me a bit.

The question of where we, humans on earth, came from isn't stumbling block to me. I feel one way, others feel other ways. So be it. We, and our planet, are such puny things in the the scheme of things that all of our chest pounding and arguing seems almost comical. I see God as the first and ultimate scientist and we are simply one of His experiments, and He, as with all true scientists, loves all His experiments.

In the end, I really don't care who does or doesn't agree with me and I don't care how others feel about it all. That's not my business and my faith is none of yours unless you share it with me. I am always amused at how angry the athiests are. If they dont believe in an theology, what possibl;e difference can it make to them how others believe? It's kind of fun living in other's' head's rent free!

Call me crazy. I have had doctors tell me I'm not, even though I was sure I was!

Call me stupid. I'll challenge anyone here to an IQ test and a general knowledge test....unless I have to use algebra!

Hmmm..I don't see anything in the books of law that says it IS abuse to teach children about heaven or hell.

Perhaps it should be, Mark. 

If they dont believe in an theology, what possibl;e difference can it make to them how others believe? 

Because the folks who *DO* believe in the nonsense keep forcing it on the rest of us?   Prop 8, for instance?  The assassination of St. George Tiller?   

Just a thought. 

I'm inclined to think people are innately spiritual. Even our cousins neanderthal buried their dead with ceremony. Whether our ancients worshiped an animal or a rock, each defined a deity and an afterlife. I don't scoff at their superstitions, they were trying to figure things out with the knowledge and tools they had. And isn't this the same drive, this spirituality, that motivates us to send men to the moon,send cameras to Mars, map our DNA, and who knows what else, manufacture a sane culture and society? The predominate hindrance to these goals are the ones who have all the answers. Don't take my word for it, ask the pope.

I'm inclined to think that "innately spiritual" is a phrase without a concrete meaning.

So Random is still preaching his religion.www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo9/9nicoll.php 

Grumpy:  Recently I wrote a blog re my thoughts about creation and evolution.  defyinggravity mentioned "divine evolution," and that's good enough for me.  In my blog I'd described how the thoughts came together.  It doesn't seem to me that creation and evolution are mutually exclusive. 

Anyhow, that's not exactly what you were talking about here.  Fear doesn't drive me to revere God; if it did, I'd probably be a better person.  Rather, it's faith.  Faith that there is a Divinity out there Who does care for all his creations -- even me. 

Terrific essay, and I don't think you're grumpy in the least. 

I could write reams about how wonderful my husband is, how lucky I am to have him, and how lucky I am to have had my parents and my sisters, and how lucky I am to have my beautiful daughter (beautiful in every way) and wondrous granddaughters.  But I won't.  Three lines will have to do. 

innate: what we are born with; natural rather than acquired.

spiritual: of or from the intellect; intellectual.

Science evolved from religion, not the other way around. Religion professes to have answers; science has questions. A kind of "the more I know, the more I don't know" conundrum.

RF..For the government to create a law that forbade any general or specific religous teaching would blatantly violate the seperation of church and state. Something the athiests say having to see the word "God" on money is doing. As much as they would like to, they can't have it both ways. Either the government stays out of it altogether, or they jump in with both feet. You think Christianities Hell is bad, you should see what the Muslims have to face! Of course thier idea of Heaven suits a degenerate like me, but begs the question: Can SOULS actually have sex without their bodies?

As for issues such as Prop 8. When the athiests become the majority, even by a slim margin, they will have the chance to force THEIR non-beliefs on the rest of us. It may not suit them, but it's better than the government killing them for their lack of faith

It's also not illegal for parents to belittle and put down their kids--yet that, too, is a form of child abuse.

It doesn't have to be illegal to be wrong, Mark.

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As for issues such as Prop 8. When the athiests become the majority, even by a slim margin, they will have the chance to force THEIR non-beliefs on the rest of us.

No, they won't.  Because the US Constitution forbids it.    See, *THAT* is why the laws are there.  That is why Prop 8 will eventually be overturned, either by a majority of voters regaining their sanity, or by the court imposing sanity.

.

Can SOULS actually have sex without their bodies?

Well, bodies actually exist, whereas souls do not.  Guess I'll have to go with "no" on that. 

spiritual: of or from the intellect; intellectual.

I think a lot of people here would challenge that definition.  Of course, they'd challenge it with nonsense about "souls" and "god" and other non-defined terms. 

A definition which equates "spiritual" with "intellect" falls far short of usefulness, I think.  Is mathematics spiritual?  How about prejudice? 

Robert Heinlein once observed that "theology" is the only "science" which cannot define the subject it covers.

Science evolved from religion, not the other way around. Religion professes to have answers; science has questions.

Love it Cat;) 

Science evolved from religion, not the other way around. 

Glad you accept *SOME* evolution as fact.  That's progress.  

But science was actually "intelligently designed." 

And Random is still preaching his religion.www.salvomag.com/new/articles/salvo9/9nicoll.php  Thank God he isn't a jehovah witness;) 

Buffoo, I keep telling you--I haven't finished *WRITING* my religion yet. 

When I start preaching, you'll know.

It's sad that you're so threatened by the fact that there's no god.  Like someone stole Linus' security blanket.

I am sorry your faith is threatened Random.  As for writing your own religion? To tell the truth I haven't seen anything original from you.  The name Random and the Flying Spaghetti Monster are all somebody elses ideas.  The kool aid you drown yourself in; can be found in any internet search under atheism and most of it isn't even correct.  It is just somebodies elses myths that you accepted on faith.  Learn to think for yourself;) 

Perhaps I should have used "innately intellectual" rather than "spiritual." Even though my dictionary states "spiritual" as intellectual for a definition. My bad for choosing the wrong semantics.

I don't have a faith, Buffoo.  Sorry about yours.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a joke.  Didn't you know?  It's a joke on *YOU*.   And it never gets stale.

As for "Randomfactor," that's my late cat's name.

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most of it isn't even correct.

Do let us know which parts of atheism *ARE* correct, in your view.  We're all ears.

Perhaps I should have used "innately intellectual" rather than "spiritual."

I could go with that.  Most people who use the world "spiritual" can't define it without woo.  

The definitions I see lean mostly towards "pertaining to the immaterial."  Which fits:  whatever spirituality is, it's immaterial to the real world.  It's like that large gray mammal with the prehensile trunk.

Buffoo wants to take it on faith that there are two different parts to the universe--the one we can all see and interact with, and the one which exists only in his imagination. 

As to Grumpy's original question, the human brain evolved to take certain shortcuts to save processing power.  One of those takes random information and tries to fit it to preconceived patterns.  A random pattern of impact craters on the moon "looks like" a face.  Random noises "sound like" voices.  Random wind patterns which knock over a hut "must" be sent from some unseen being which is displeased. 

Unfortunately, every god ever designed by man looks like the worst aspects of human beings.  Especially the current crop.

See nothing orginal there;) 

Buffoo, name something "orginal" about Christianity.

Every piece of it borrowed from somewhere else. 

And all of it the wrong pieces.

I swear... I want to smack that winking face... Uber condescending.

Anyhoo! A really interesting movie to watch is RELIGULOUS.  Seriously fascinating about how the tale of christ was actually used 3 or 4 different times BEFORE christ.  The virgin birth.  Healing powers.  It's worth a gander.  

I swear... I want to smack that winking face... 

How very christian of you.  ;)

.

Anyhoo! A really interesting movie to watch is RELIGULOUS.  Seriously fascinating about how the tale of christ was actually used 3 or 4 different times BEFORE christ

Told even better in the first 2/3 of the movie "The God Who Wasn't There."  (It goes downhill a bit at the end.)   And most of the "tale of christ" didn't even exist until long after his death.  If he existed as a single person at all...

There's not a bit about Christianity that wasn't stolen from somewhere else.  "Index, they copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory."  (Obscure song reference.)

 "There's not a bit about Christianity that wasn't stolen from somewhere else. "

The sermon on the mount is original ( basically ).

--virgil

Wonder when Pax is going to come around to denounce that Ratzinger guy for meeting with the Antichrist Obama today.   He was certainly upset enough with Notre Dame...

The sermon on the mount is original ( basically ).

But not necessarily authentic. 

It's basically another midrash, a commentary on the Torah.  The "love your neighbor" bit, although good, is mirrored in dozens of other religions. 

(added) And, of course, the Sermon on the Mount is basically irrelevant to modern Christianism.

I swear... I want to smack that winking face... Uber condescending.

Try to be tolerant Defy.  I don't want to smack you ,because you are gay.  Or other people ,because they hate God and the rest of His creation.  Come to think of it God says that He desires not the death of a sinner ,but that they repent and live;)

"Wonder when Pax is going to come around ..."

He's waiting for perceived orders ...

--virgil

I don't want to smack you ,because you are gay.

No, you just want to deny him basic human rights. 

I'm an atheist and I wouldn't dream of smacking someone over relgious differences.  What a weird reaction!

spam cope

HTN   ME

 "The "love your neighbor" bit, although good, is mirrored in dozens of other religions. "

Yes, including those darn Greeks.

I'd say Christianity lost its pluralistic temper at about the time when the Germans wanted some more land and decided to cross the Roman limes - It must have been disconcerting, even for the christians.

--virgil

I'm an atheist and I wouldn't dream of smacking someone over relgious differences. 

But this isn't over religious differences, it's over Buffoo's so-little-justified condescension.   Not that that justifies it, of course.

 I'm an atheist and I wouldn't dream of smacking someone over religious differences.  What a weird reaction!

Unfortunately like there are Christian fundies, muslim fundies, there are also atheist fundies.  I find it ironic that those who wish me ill ,because of my faith, should be thanking God.  When I was a atheist I was one mean, scared, little person.  As a Christian I respect everyone is made in God's image and no matter how darkened the devil made their heart.  A piece of God's light remains in them.  So I wouldn't dream of attacking someone now accept to come to the defense of someone weaker.

I could understand the condescension if he'd come up with a religious belief himself, but if all he does is follow what someone else has created,  he's doesn't have much to brag about.

I find it ironic that those who wish me ill

Way,  this is just patently UNTRUE and you know it in your heart.

Way,  this is just patently UNTRUE and you know it in your heart.

He doesn't let truth or untruth stand in his way.

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but if all he does is follow what someone else has created,

He wouldn't be half so bad if he *DID* follow some of what Christ said in the sermon on the mount/plain/wherever.  But his religion forbids it.

I could understand the condescension if he'd come up with a religious belief himself, but if all he does is follow what someone else has created,  he's doesn't have much to brag about

Thanks Audry that is indeed my boast.  I try to perceive reality and conform myself to God and His Kingdom.  Rather than impose my fantasies, and seek to make God and His Kingdom a part of way's kingdom;).

I respect that Way.  Now respect our right to have equal treatment under the law by not having ONE religious belief become the national religious belief.  As in "Christian Nation".

Thanks Audry that is indeed my boast. 

It's called "hypocrisy," and it's nothing to boast about.

In fact, I believe "boasting" is one of those things you're supposed to be avoiding, too.

Way absolutely refuses to spell my name correctly.  It's as if he'd be giving me legitimacy by using the correct spelling.

Way, a lot of my friends call me Aud.  If you prefer that to Audrey, feel free to shorten it in that way.  Audry is just a lazy misspelling.