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tkozy - > There is a Chance -> Economic rescue could cost $8.5 trillion
Economic rescue could cost $8.5 trillion

Economic rescue could cost $8.5 trillion

http://www.latimes.com/news...

 

Reaganomics and Larry Cramer’s Free Market capitalism Just stole 8.5 trillion dollars from the taxpayer. This is in addition to the trillions of dollars stolen from IRA’s And 401K’s,

Free Market Capitalism is not Capitalism at all. Adam Smith’s Wealth of Nations. The Capitalists bible, goes into detail about how capitalism MUST be regulated. He Foretold the mess we are in. He proclaimed what is going on today was bound to happen in the absents of regulation.

Reagannomics and Today’s free market capitalism describes how the wealthy can steal from the poor. It describes a pyramid scheme where every one invest almost nothing. Invests no labor. And lives waiting on the pot at the end of the rainbow. Waiting on the promised land where the entire world lives in the ‘Ownership Society’.

Take away the piece of paper that declares those who have been running our nation , Masters, Doctors.

And What you are left with are idiots and thieves.

With 8.5 trillion dollars the taxpayer could buy every business in America. And still have the money to go on a cruise.

Some of these companies MUST be left to fail. Some of these companies. Especial those that have been manipulating the Commodities, MUST be nationalized.

It is with out a doubt that this ‘Free Market Capitalism that has been thrust upon the American public is the devil 1000 time over.

It makes Socialism appear to be saintly.

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posted by tkozy on Sunday, November 30, 2008 at 07:17 AM
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posted by saberhagen on Nov 30, 2008 at 12:41 PM

 

 

There is no question that free market Capitalism at least needs regulation, especially in certain sectors.

The question is, will we do it, or can we do it?

Another big question is, must we have complete collapse before we can do what needs to be done, and even then will we make the right moves?

Trading of futures contracts of certain essential commodities such as oil and energy, for one of several major examples, should be either heavily regulated or perhaps best even suspended altogether in order to ensure the stabilization of the market and protect consumers.

The economic problems the nation faces are not so simply resolved, however, as there are other basic systemic flaws which must also be addressed including the cleanup of the stock, bond and other markets. Plus, some other fundamental changes necessary to improve the way we do business.

Our markets have so far evolved into a giant casino manipulated by the rapidly proliferating number of parasites who produce nothing while draining the vestiges of life from the diseased carcass.

It just doesn't make good economic sense to root our financial fortune on the whims of speculative gamblers.

But we did.

And we lost.

And now we must pay off the bookie and the shylock, too.

It should be quite obvious to everyone by now that, left unregulated with no proper oversight, our free markets tend to be corrupted by the greed and manipulation of the scamming gamblers who control it.

But many people are adamantly opposed to use of government control to keep the speculative sharks at bay.

So, if it isn't the government that controls the markets, then who should?

Without oversight, do we have bonafide, certified, altruistic, public spirited populists pulling our financial and economic strings?

Nope.

There is little perceivable evidence that a shred of moral integrity exists in the corporate world that might justify leaving our economic system in its collective hand.

What we have is a whole lot of greedy free marketeer pirates gaming the system with the help of government which hands the keys to the treasury over to them in the form of poor legislation that allows banks to gamble with funds and marketeers to invent highly flawed and highly risky exotic derivatives and sell them to chump bankers and other ignorant buyers as if their value was solidly ensured.

To make matters even worse, insurers, hedge funds, pension funds, etc greedily jump on the Ponzi scheme using other peoples' money (ours) , and the the pyramid crumbles leaving millions of little investors holding the proverbial bag who even end up bailing out the scammers and incompetents who grossly mismanaged our money.

The scammers bilk billions from the banks, fund managers and a wide array of financial services companies managing the public's money and the little victims who fuel the machine get screwed and even end up make the big victims whole.

Sweet.

For everyone except, of course, us little chumps.

The system of unfettered free market Capitalism is corrupted.

We simply can't afford to not clean it up.

Since the system's controlling players have so clearly demonstrated they are untrustworthy, it's imperative that they be forced to capitulate to the imposition of various mandatory fair trade policies.

The system needs a serious overhaul and structural design modification in order to securely and effectively serve the 21st century and beyond.

Problem is, at this nadir of economic evolution, some of the required changes look like socialism to a whole lot of folks who greatly fear any steps to monitor regulate and enforce violations of free market trade and in their minds rings the death knell for Capitalist democracy as they understand it.

But modified capitalism, cum socialism, may already be here

The Republicans still in charge know they couldn't sell the concept  of modified Capitalism and get re-elected, so after rashly giving away billions or trillions of no-string loans/bailouts/gifts, government is taking some small but significant steps toward socialism in acquiring unprecedented ownership interest in some private sector industries.

The nation's manifest economic issues are so many that the shift toward socialism is almost entirely obscured in the nebulous confusion.

When the fog clears, like it or not,  we are likely to see the effective nationalization of a significant portion of American business.

Private operation of the major players in the giant Military/Industrial complex will remain intact as will the powerful petroleum energy industry, while the government acquires ownership and control of the Financial Industry and a few other key (can't let them fail) corporate giants rescued during the past and coming months. 

At some point, a form of universal healthcare will be adopted, probably in some sort of "partnership" with private medical insurers which will meld the health insurers with existing Medicare and Medicaid programs, effectively making government the Big Daddy of insurance underwriters.

But one thing is sure, whatever system of modified Capitalism or adjusted Socialism we end up with will not resemble the Communism that strikes such great fear in the hearts of die hard free marketeers.

 

posted by drilnliftcrude on Nov 30, 2008 at 01:11 PM

Yeah.  We need more people like Barney Frank and Chuck Schumer controling the economy.

Or perhaps Charlie Rangel.

Hope and change. I feel it!

posted by saberhagen on Nov 30, 2008 at 01:30 PM

 

Okay, Dril, maybe we should have voted for more Republican rule that got us to the brink of economic collapse.

But we didn't.

Instead, the political pendulum swung left after eight years of Republican greed, corruption and incompetence and the people overwhelmingly voted for Democrats to clean up the very ugly leftover mess that threatens to catapult the nation and world into severe depression or even worse, providing it's not yet too late for salvation by the time the new team takes over in January.

You better hope they can do it.

In fact, dril, you should be rooting for their success instead of hoping for failure, which will affect us all, including you and the other bitter conservatives and their shrill talk show icons who are short selling their shares in the nation's economic, political and social health.

 

posted by drilnliftcrude on Nov 30, 2008 at 01:43 PM

Yeah, and while you're thinking up new colorful adjectives to use in describing your opinion of Republicans, Barney Frank and the rest of the Democrats that have been running Capitol Hill for the last couple of years will continue to bend you over and say, "Uh, the Republicans are doing this to you. Uh, the Republicans are doing this to you." .

posted by saberhagen on Nov 30, 2008 at 02:18 PM

 

 

Dril, I have no doubt that Republicans will continue attempts to hang the whole edonomic debacle on the Democrats.

But you can demonize Democratic house leaders til the cows come home, and the facts behind this financial collapse will not change.

There's no point in rehashing the silly debate over who's at fault for the mess and whether Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi, etal are the agents of Satan and the harbingers of armageddon.

Some conservatives are really good at waving the flag of patriotism while questioning the patriotism of liberals until things don't go their way and then unpatriotically wish for their country's failure.

Is that you, dril? You one of those guys?

Are you going to step up, support your elected leaders and be a part of the solution, or are you just going to spend the next four or eight years hostile toward your new government and bitterly clinging to your gun and religion and part of the problem?

Corny as it sounds, in order to right the perilously listing ship of state, people and legislators need to pragmatically pull together, putting their partisan differences aside to work toward the successful reconstruction of the nation.

 

posted by saberhagen on Nov 30, 2008 at 02:41 PM

 

 

Crude says: "Yeah.  We need more people like Barney Frank and Chuck Schumer controling the economy. Or perhaps Charlie Rangel."

Maybe we can get Ted Stevens. Charlie's busy preparing for his ethics committee investigation.

 

posted by catpaw on Nov 30, 2008 at 02:49 PM

8.5 trillion dollars...if I recall my grade school science, isn't that figure more than there are miles in a light year? How do I comprehend 8.5 trillion? The universe isn't that old. Do we have enough trees to print that much money?

posted by donmason on Nov 30, 2008 at 02:52 PM

Hi Saber,

 

Rational and thoughtful post.

 

Our present Corporatocracy  already rules both parties unfortunately. Let’s hope that proposed reforms can loosen the grip somewhat.

 

After 6 trillion in capitol injections to the US financial system, and proportionally similar amounts in Western and Asian banking systems in the last 12 months, we will soon be facing a hyper inflationary cycle that will be far more destructive to our social structure than our present situation. It will be the final nail in the coffin for the middle class.

 

Even a mutually agreed international currency devaluation won’t “cure” the problem.

 

This is actually the relative calm before the storm.

 

We indeed live in interesting times.

 

Please fasten your seat belts. 

posted by saberhagen on Nov 30, 2008 at 04:03 PM

 

 

Thanks, Don.

Looks like we're on the same page.

It's certainly questionable whether even the most astute and able economists will be able to pull the downwardly spiraling global economy out of its flat spin.

Hopes for a miraculous recovery seem to be rapidly dimming.

So, how will we survive the crash and what will the world look like afterward?

I'm also envisioning a wider gap between the haves and havenots, with many more of the latter.

I'm thinking we might need a good garden in the back yard to provide nourishment and for bartering.

We might even be wealthy with a couple fruit bearing trees.

Maybe Chase will take potatoes for a mortgage payment.

Which of the big bank holding companies buckling from massive unpaid credit card debt will be first to knock on the fed's door looking for salvation?

With the loss of 500,000 jobs per month, millions more people will not only be unable to pay their home mortgages, but they will also be unable to pay credit card debt, which may dwarf the amount of home mortgage debt.

It looks like the second hammer of the big double whammy is about to come down on our heads.

 

 

 

posted by donmason on Nov 30, 2008 at 05:14 PM

Funny you should mention a garden.

 

I did my first large scale back yard garden last spring, and did fairly well for a non farmer.

 

Planted tomatoes, potatoes, corn, squash, string beans, and a little plot of Soy beans.

 

Already have an orange tree, and a peach tree.

 

Next spring, I’m gonna do much more large container gardening. Hopefully, that will cut down on weeding and care taking.

 

I became very popular with my neighbors that like home grown tomatoes. 6 plants produced far more than I could eat. I’ve gotta learn to do home canning next year.

 

I had good luck with everything but the string beans. They produced beans, but seemed stunted all season. Maybe the soil wasn’t right. I’ll get one of those soil analyzer kits next spring.

posted by drilnliftcrude on Nov 30, 2008 at 05:16 PM

Ted Stevens?  He has already been convicted and voted out of office.  The 3 Democrats that I mentioned are still on Capitol Hill and in positions of authority and influence.  Seems like your biggest priority is seeing that the Republicans get any and all blame for what has happened and what is to happen that isn't good and to cover for the Democrats that are hub deep in the sewage.  I always find it a bit ironic how those that have been reaming the President and the GOP for the last 8 years are, now that the Dems are in power, urgently calling for everyone to "come together". 

posted by tkozy on Nov 30, 2008 at 06:16 PM
Well Drill,   GM, Citi Bank and the rest of the carnival of incompetents. Are too big to fail. Doesn’t it bother you at least a little bit. When you hear some wish death upon the Social Security system, Why isn’t Social Security to Big to fail. Why isn’t a single payer health system to big to fail. Aren’t  you tired of being made the sap? I certainly know I am. 8.5 trillion, that’s 25 thousand for every American. 100 thousand for a family of four.  At what point in time should we toss the bums out. Toss the tea bags into the bay and start all over again. It was a year ago we argued about the price of crude. I bet on 40 dollar oil. You said I was crazy. Well it took longer than I had thought. But it is here.     Thanks to all for the great posts.
posted by drilnliftcrude on Nov 30, 2008 at 06:30 PM

You must be bummed, TK.  40 dollar oil pretty much makes Bakken shale uneconomical to develop.

posted by tkozy on Nov 30, 2008 at 10:30 PM
Bakken is profitable down to 30 bucks per barrel. Maybe even lower with the flex cable directional drilling. But you are right. I won’t get into the raping and pillaging that had become so popular in the last year. As long as there are those greedy sharks that steal everything they can if it’s not nailed down. The petro industry will not stabilize into a business I would want to be involved in.   It’s good dirt in North Dakota. Still worth over 40 bucks per acre on a yearly lease. Steady as she goes there matey.  :>)  
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