http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517 Open-shop laws threaten unions A great article on why Right to Work laws help workers! &nbsp; &nbsp;Enlarge By Rebecca Cook, Reuters Chester Youmans, right, a retired autoworker still active in the UAW, joins in a rally this week seeking health care reform outside the Detroit location where union and GM negotiators are discussing new job contracts. &nbsp;UNION DENSITY States with open-shop laws tend to have fewer people represented by unions. &bull; Indicates state with open-shop/right-to-work law State Pct. of workers represented State by unions Per capita real GDP1 &bull; Alabama 8.8% $29,697 Alaska 22.2% $43,748 &bull; Arizona 7.6% $33,441 &bull; Arkansas 5.1% $27,875 California 15.7% $41,663 Colorado 7.7% $41,798 Connecticut 15.6% $50,332 Delaware 10.8% $59,288 Dist. of Col. 10.3% $124,363 &bull; Florida 5.2% $33,718 &bull; Georgia 4.4% $35,362 Hawaii 24.7% $38,083 &bull; Idaho 6.0% $30,896 Illinois 16.4% $39,514 Indiana2 12.0% $34,058 &bull; Iowa 11.3% $35,662 &bull; Kansas 8.0% $34,242 Kentucky 9.8% $29,842 &bull; Louisiana 6.4% $32,923 Maine 11.9% $30,305 Maryland 13.1% $39,161 Massachusetts 14.5% $46,721 Michigan 19.6% $33,468 Minnesota 16.0% $41,295 &bull; Mississippi 5.6% $24,062 Missouri 10.9% $33,297 Montana 12.2% $27,942 &bull; Nebraska 7.9% $36,441 &bull; Nevada 14.8% $39,813 New Hampshire 10.1% $37,666 New Jersey 20.1% $44,885 New Mexico 7.8% $31,986 New York 24.4% $46,617 &bull; North Carolina 3.3% $36,489 &bull; North Dakota 6.8% $34,446 Ohio 14.2% $34,609 &bull; Oklahoma 6.4% $29,545 Oregon 13.8% $37,633 Pennsylvania 13.6% $34,828 Rhode Island 15.3% $36,292 &bull; South Carolina 3.3% $29,642 &bull; South Dakota 5.9% $35,842 &bull; Tennessee 6.0% $34,321 &bull; Texas 4.9% $36,920 &bull; Utah 5.4% $32,357 Vermont 11.0% $34,472 &bull; Virginia 4.0% $41,702 Washington 19.8% $39,616 West Virginia 14.2% $24,748 Wisconsin 14.9% $35,390 &bull; Wyoming 8.3% $39,130 1= 2006 estimates; 2= open shop for school employees only. Sources: Bureau of Labor Statistics, Bureau of Economic Statistics By Sharon Silke Carty, USA TODAY DETROIT &mdash; Edward Sioui has always been able to make a living in Michigan without a college degree. So in July 2001, when his mom had a heart attack in Arizona, he figured it would be easy to pick up, move near her, and maybe enjoy living in a warmer climate for a while. Exactly 364 days later, frustrated by his meager paychecks and sweltering in the desert heat, he and his wife, Debbie, headed back to Michigan. He blamed his family's inability to make a living in Arizona on the state's open-shop, or right-to-work, laws, which hinder union growth. Even with cheaper housing, he couldn't make ends meet on $12.25 an hour, and the work environment rankled him. &quot;You're not treated with any respect,&quot; Sioui says, who is happy to be back in Michigan even though he is currently laid off. &quot;You're just dispensable, and they know it, so they treat you that way.&quot; Sioui is among the blue-collar workers who are dismayed that business leaders and politicians are talking about making Michigan the country's 23rd state with an open-shop or right-to-work law. Right-to-work is the phrase union opponents use to describe what unions call open shops. Under such laws, union membership is not required to get a job, and workers can choose whether they want to be in a union, even if a company is unionized. That makes it harder for unions to organize new members in already-unionized plants and makes it more difficult to bring unions to new sites. Ultimately, unions say, it means more non-union workers earning lower non-union wages. FIND MORE STORIES IN:&nbsp;Detroit | Michigan | Oklahoma | United Auto Workers | Labor | University of Michigan | University of Central Oklahoma That the discussion is even happening in Michigan, which ranks fourth in the nation for its number of union-represented employees, is dramatic. Union pride &mdash; and influence &mdash; runs deep here, the birthplace and current home base of the United Auto Workers. It's a state where holidays are extended by union days off, such as the Monday after Easter and a week around July Fourth. And where even non-unionized white-collar workers admit their wages and benefits wouldn't be where they are without the influence of the UAW. Yet the issue has come up, including in the Michigan Legislature. And not at a good time for the UAW. Although in early stages &mdash; and perhaps without much hope for taking effect &mdash; the right-to-work movement is another pressure on the union, which has just launched negotiations on new contracts with Detroit's struggling automakers. The UAW and the automakers will spend the rest of the summer hashing out what may be monumental changes for union workers' wages, job security and health care benefits. Proponents say a right-to-work law will help Michigan revive its economy because businesses will be more amenable to moving to the state. States with such laws, they argue, are among the fastest-growing in the country. Waning hope Michigan is a state that is quickly losing hope. It is in its longest stretch of job losses since the Great Depression, say economists at the University of Michigan. From 2000 to 2006, the state lost 336,000 jobs and is predicted to lose an additional 33,000 by the end of 2008. Its unemployment rate in June was 7.2%, the highest in the nation. And the state's largest industry, automotive, shows little sign of turning around. Because of the cyclical nature of the auto industry, people in Michigan are used to economic ups and downs. But the downs are becoming longer-lived than the ups. To regain some of its economic health, Michigan needs to attract different industries, such as alternative fuel production, health care and tourism. But right-to-work proponents say the strong union presence keeps new industry away. A weaker union base would help attract more businesses, they argue. &quot;We've got to do something bold, something dramatic,&quot; says Lawrence Reed, president of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a conservative think tank in Michigan that promotes business interests. &quot;This is the one best thing that can break the perception around the country that Michigan doesn't have a friendly work environment. Nothing would do that better than a right-to-work initiative.&quot; Republican state Rep. Jack Hoogendyk introduced a right-to-work bill in March. It would change the state's closed-shop laws, which compel hourly employees in unionized workplaces to join the union. Although the bill likely won't go anywhere &mdash; it remains stuck in the Democrat-controlled House Labor Committee &mdash; there is a chance that a citizen's group could put a right-to-work initiative on the ballot. &quot;If Michigan were to become a right-to-work state, it would do a lot to move us in the right direction to become economically viable,&quot; Hoogendyk says. &quot;Michigan has the most talented workforce, the best entrepreneurial spirit and work ethic. But the ones who make the investment decisions are not making the decision to come to Michigan.&quot; The fact that lawmakers and business leaders feel comfortable introducing the idea of open-shop laws in Michigan demonstrates how much weaker unions already are in the state, which in the past dozen years has seen violence erupt over labor issues, as in the Detroit newspapers strikes in the mid-1990s. Job losses in the auto industry have trimmed UAW ranks to about 500,000 today from 1.5 million in 1979, making the union less of a threat as it shrinks. Unions not sitting back Still, the unions, which made up 19.6% of Michigan's workforce in 2006, aren't going to sit by and let the state enact rules that will weaken them. The day after Hoogendyk introduced his legislation, an e-mail from the AFL-CIO hit the inboxes of all of the state's representatives and staffers outlining the downsides to open-shop laws. While UAW President Ron Gettelfinger dismissed the issue as a non-starter in Michigan, James P. Hoffa, president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, said his union is ready to fight. &quot;We will mobilize our members,&quot; says Hoffa, whose union has a smaller presence in Michigan than the UAW does. &quot;Right-to-work causes divisions among the workers when the workers need to be united.&quot; Oklahoma is the most recent state to enact open-shop laws. In 2001, with 8% of its population represented by unions, compared with a national average 12%, state Republicans took on the battle to enact right-to-work with support of businesses including Wal-Mart (WMT), the state Chamber of Commerce, and most of the state's newspapers. Labor groups led the opposition. The two sides spent $11.4 million in the showdown over a ballot initiative. Supporters of right-to-work painted the issue as one of individual liberty, arguing that workers should not be compelled to join a union if they don't want to. Opponents argued that the law would lead to lower wages and benefits. The issue drew nearly a million votes, passing with 54% of the vote. Since it became Oklahoma law in 2003, &quot;The effect has probably been rather minimal, plus or minus either way,&quot; says Mickey Hepner, associate professor of economics at the University of Central Oklahoma. Personal income in Oklahoma grew 7.6% last year, the third-highest growth in the nation, according to the Department of Commerce, but that was attributed to growth in the oil and gas industry, which has been in Oklahoma for decades. Businesses have invested $2.5 billion in the state since 2001, according to the Oklahoma Department of Commerce, and about 28,000 jobs have been added. Yet, there have been some big hits to the economy, as well. General Motors (GM) closed its Oklahoma City plant in February 2006, eliminating 2,000 jobs. Bridgestone Firestone closed its Dayton Tire plant in Oklahoma City in December. And the clothing manufacturer that makes Wrangler jeans shut a Seminole, Okla., plant in 2003, moving operations to Mexico. Union membership in Oklahoma is now 5.4%. Right-to-work laws make less sense as businesses become more globalized, Hepner says. &quot;We're competing against Mexico and China and Honduras and India for labor, and frankly, no matter how far labor costs go down (in the USA), it's still going to be cheaper to produce things over there than here in Oklahoma. Right-to-work is not going to stop that globalization process.&quot; Michigan's prospects Proponents of right-to-work could be helped by a growing dissatisfaction in Michigan with the unions. A recent spate of automaker buyouts that gave hourly workers up to $140,000 in some cases or paid-in-full college educations in others irked white-collar workers at the same companies, many of whom were laid off without any safety net at all. And the automaker jobs bank &mdash; which preserves hourly workers' jobs even when there is nothing for them to do &mdash; has earned the UAW the derisive nickname &quot;U Ain't Working.&quot; In the past few years, the UAW also has drawn criticism from some labor sup Open-shop laws threaten unions A great article on why Right to Work laws help workers! &nbsp; &nbsp;Enlarge By Rebecca Cook, Reuters Chester Youmans, right, a retired autoworker still active in the UAW, joins in a rally this week seeking health care reform outside the Detroit location where union and GM negotiators are discussing new job contracts. &nbsp;UNION DENSITY States with open-shop laws tend to have fewer people represented by unions. &bull; Indicates state with open-shop/right-to-work law State Pct. of workers represented State by unions Per capita real GDP1 &bull; Alabama 8.8% $29,697 Alaska 22.2% $43,748 &bull; Arizona 7.6% $33,441 &bull; Arkansas 5.1% $27,875 California 15.7% $41,663 Colorado 7.7% $41,798 Connecticut 15.6% $50,332 Delaware 10.8% $59,288 Dist. of Col. 10.3% $124,363 &bull; Florida 5.2% $33,718 &bull; Georgia 4.4% $35,362 Hawaii 24.7% $38,083 &bull; Idaho 6.0% $30,896 Illinois 16.4% $39,514 Indiana2 12.0% $34,058 &bull; Iowa 11.3% $35,662 &bull; Kansas 8.0% $34,242 Kentucky 9.8% $29,842 &bull; Louisiana 6.4% $32,923 Maine 11.9% $30,305 Maryland 13.1% $39,161 Massachusetts 14.5% $46,721 Michigan 19.6% $33,468 Minnesota 16.0% $41,295 &bull; Mississippi 5.6% $24,062 Missouri 10.9% $33,297 Montana 12.2% $27,942 &bull; Nebraska 7.9% $36,441 &bull; Nevada 14.8% $39,813 New Hampshire 10.1% $37,666 New Jersey 20.1% $44,885 New Mexico 7.8% $31,986 New York 24.4% $46,617 &bull; North Carolina 3.3% $36,489 &bull; North Dakota 6.8% $34,446 Ohio 14.2% $34,609 &bull; Oklahoma 6.4% $29,545 Oregon 13.8% $37,633 Pennsylvania 13.6% $34,828 Rhode Island 15.3% $36,292 &bull; South Carolina 3.3% $29,642 &bull; South Dakota 5.9% $35,842 &bull; Tennessee 6.0% $34,321 &bull; Texas 4.9% $36,920 &bull; Utah 5.4% $32,357 Vermont 11.0% $34,472 &bull; Virginia 4.0% $41,702 Washington 19.8% $39,616 West Virginia 14.2% $24,748 Wisconsin 14.9% $35,390 &bull; Wyoming 8.3% $39,130 1= 2006 estimates; 2= open shop for school employees only. Sources: Bureau of Labor Statistics, Bureau of Economic Statistics By Sharon Silke Carty, USA TODAY DETROIT &mdash; Edward Sioui has always been able to make a living in Michigan without a college degree. So in July 2001, when his mom had a heart attack in Arizona, he figured it would be easy to pick up, move near her, and maybe enjoy living in a warmer climate for a while. Exactly 364 days later, frustrated by his meager paychecks and sweltering in the desert heat, he and his wife, Debbie, headed back to Michigan. He blamed his family's inability to make a living in Arizona on the state's open-shop, or right-to-work, laws, which hinder union growth. Even with cheaper housing, he couldn't make ends meet on $12.25 an hour, and the work environment rankled him. &quot;You're not treated with any respect,&quot; Sioui says, who is happy to be back in Michigan even though he is currently laid off. &quot;You're just dispensable, and they know it, so they treat you that way.&quot; Sioui is among the blue-collar workers who are dismayed that business leaders and politicians are talking about making Michigan the country's 23rd state with an open-shop or right-to-work law. Right-to-work is the phrase union opponents use to describe what unions call open shops. Under such laws, union membership is not required to get a job, and workers can choose whether they want to be in a union, even if a company is unionized. That makes it harder for unions to organize new members in already-unionized plants and makes it more difficult to bring unions to new sites. Ultimately, unions say, it means more non-union workers earning lower non-union wages. FIND MORE STORIES IN:&nbsp;Detroit | Michigan | Oklahoma | United Auto Workers | Labor | University of Michigan | University of Central Oklahoma That the discussion is even happening in Michigan, which ranks fourth in the nation for its number of union-represented employees, is dramatic. Union pride &mdash; and influence &mdash; runs deep here, the birthplace and current home base of the United Auto Workers. It's a state where holidays are extended by union days off, such as the Monday after Easter and a week around July Fourth. And where even non-unionized white-collar workers admit their wages and benefits wouldn't be where they are without the influence of the UAW. Yet the issue has come up, including in the Michigan Legislature. And not at a good time for the UAW. Although in early stages &mdash; and perhaps without much hope for taking effect &mdash; the right-to-work movement is another pressure on the union, which has just launched negotiations on new contracts with Detroit's struggling automakers. The UAW and the automakers will spend the rest of the summer hashing out what may be monumental changes for union workers' wages, job security and health care benefits. Proponents say a right-to-work law will help Michigan revive its economy because businesses will be more amenable to moving to the state. States with such laws, they argue, are among the fastest-growing in the country. Waning hope Michigan is a state that is quickly losing hope. It is in its longest stretch of job losses since the Great Depression, say economists at the University of Michigan. From 2000 to 2006, the state lost 336,000 jobs and is predicted to lose an additional 33,000 by the end of 2008. Its unemployment rate in June was 7.2%, the highest in the nation. And the state's largest industry, automotive, shows little sign of turning around. Because of the cyclical nature of the auto industry, people in Michigan are used to economic ups and downs. But the downs are becoming longer-lived than the ups. To regain some of its economic health, Michigan needs to attract different industries, such as alternative fuel production, health care and tourism. But right-to-work proponents say the strong union presence keeps new industry away. A weaker union base would help attract more businesses, they argue. &quot;We've got to do something bold, something dramatic,&quot; says Lawrence Reed, president of the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a conservative think tank in Michigan that promotes business interests. &quot;This is the one best thing that can break the perception around the country that Michigan doesn't have a friendly work environment. Nothing would do that better than a right-to-work initiative.&quot; Republican state Rep. Jack Hoogendyk introduced a right-to-work bill in March. It would change the state's closed-shop laws, which compel hourly employees in unionized workplaces to join the union. Although the bill likely won't go anywhere &mdash; it remains stuck in the Democrat-controlled House Labor Committee &mdash; there is a chance that a citizen's group could put a right-to-work initiative on the ballot. &quot;If Michigan were to become a right-to-work state, it would do a lot to move us in the right direction to become economically viable,&quot; Hoogendyk says. &quot;Michigan has the most talented workforce, the best entrepreneurial spirit and work ethic. But the ones who make the investment decisions are not making the decision to come to Michigan.&quot; The fact that lawmakers and business leaders feel comfortable introducing the idea of open-shop laws in Michigan demonstrates how much weaker unions already are in the state, which in the past dozen years has seen violence erupt over labor issues, as in the Detroit newspapers strikes in the mid-1990s. Job losses in the auto industry have trimmed UAW ranks to about 500,000 today from 1.5 million in 1979, making the union less of a threat as it shrinks. Unions not sitting back Still, the unions, which made up 19.6% of Michigan's workforce in 2006, aren't going to sit by and let the state enact rules that will weaken them. The day after Hoogendyk introduced his legislation, an e-mail from the AFL-CIO hit the inboxes of all of the state's representatives and staffers outlining the downsides to open-shop laws. While UAW President Ron Gettelfinger dismissed the issue as a non-starter in Michigan, James P. Hoffa, president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, said his union is ready to fight. &quot;We will mobilize our members,&quot; says Hoffa, whose union has a smaller presence in Michigan than the UAW does. &quot;Right-to-work causes divisions among the workers when the workers need to be united.&quot; Oklahoma is the most recent state to enact open-shop laws. In 2001, with 8% of its population represented by unions, compared with a national average 12%, state Republicans took on the battle to enact right-to-work with support of businesses including Wal-Mart (WMT), the state Chamber of Commerce, and most of the state's newspapers. Labor groups led the opposition. The two sides spent $11.4 million in the showdown over a ballot initiative. Supporters of right-to-work painted the issue as one of individual liberty, arguing that workers should not be compelled to join a union if they don't want to. Opponents argued that the law would lead to lower wages and benefits. The issue drew nearly a million votes, passing with 54% of the vote. Since it became Oklahoma law in 2003, &quot;The effect has probably been rather minimal, plus or minus either way,&quot; says Mickey Hepner, associate professor of economics at the University of Central Oklahoma. Personal income in Oklahoma grew 7.6% last year, the third-highest growth in the nation, according to the Department of Commerce, but that was attributed to growth in the oil and gas industry, which has been in Oklahoma for decades. Businesses have invested $2.5 billion in the state since 2001, according to the Oklahoma Department of Commerce, and about 28,000 jobs have been added. Yet, there have been some big hits to the economy, as well. General Motors (GM) closed its Oklahoma City plant in February 2006, eliminating 2,000 jobs. Bridgestone Firestone closed its Dayton Tire plant in Oklahoma City in December. And the clothing manufacturer that makes Wrangler jeans shut a Seminole, Okla., plant in 2003, moving operations to Mexico. Union membership in Oklahoma is now 5.4%. Right-to-work laws make less sense as businesses become more globalized, Hepner says. &quot;We're competing against Mexico and China and Honduras and India for labor, and frankly, no matter how far labor costs go down (in the USA), it's still going to be cheaper to produce things over there than here in Oklahoma. Right-to-work is not going to stop that globalization process.&quot; Michigan's prospects Proponents of right-to-work could be helped by a growing dissatisfaction in Michigan with the unions. A recent spate of automaker buyouts that gave hourly workers up to $140,000 in some cases or paid-in-full college educations in others irked white-collar workers at the same companies, many of whom were laid off without any safety net at all. And the automaker jobs bank &mdash; which preserves hourly workers' jobs even when there is nothing for them to do &mdash; has earned the UAW the derisive nickname &quot;U Ain't Working.&quot; In the past few years, the UAW also has drawn criticism from some labor sup en-us Fri, 27 Jul 2007 10:37:58 PDT Is it possible that the continued demand for higher wages and more fringe benefits by the labor unions could be a factor in manufacturing moving overseas.&nbsp; Automobile&nbsp; companies come to mind. Just wondering. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121962 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121962 Is it possible that the continued demand for higher wages and more fringe benefits by the labor unions could be a factor in manufacturing moving overseas.&nbsp; Automobile&nbsp; companies come to mind. Just wondering. <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Is it possible that the continued demand for higher wages and more fringe benefits by the labor unions could be a factor in manufacturing moving overseas</font></p> <p>Despite popular claims to the contrary, labor unions in recent years have had little impact on either company survival or average wages in private sector manufacturing, according to researchers from the University of California, Berkeley, and the University of Michigan.</p> <p>They also refute what Lee and DiNardo said is a frequent employer stance: that a plant or business operation will have to close to absorb additional costs if a union drive is successful.</p> <p>Historically, authorities have reported a gap of 15 percent to 30 percent between union and non-union wages, but Lee said he and DiNardo found a difference of closer to 1 percent.<br /> </p> <p>Their paper, &quot;Economic Impacts of Unionization on Private Sector Employers: 1984-2001,&quot; can be found online at: <a href="http://www.nber.org">www.nber.org</a>.</p> <p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/08_union.shtml">http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/08_union.shtml</a></p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121969 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121969 <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Is it possible that the continued demand for higher wages and more fringe benefits by the labor unions could be a factor in manufacturing moving overseas</font></p> <p>Despite popular claims to the contrary, labor unions in recent years have had little impact on either company survival or average wages in private sector manufacturing, according to researchers from the University of California, Berkeley, and the University of Michigan.</p> <p>They also refute what Lee and DiNardo said is a frequent employer stance: that a plant or business operation will have to close to absorb additional costs if a union drive is successful.</p> <p>Historically, authorities have reported a gap of 15 percent to 30 percent between union and non-union wages, but Lee said he and DiNardo found a difference of closer to 1 percent.<br /> </p> <p>Their paper, &quot;Economic Impacts of Unionization on Private Sector Employers: 1984-2001,&quot; can be found online at: <a href="http://www.nber.org">www.nber.org</a>.</p> <p><a href="http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/08_union.shtml">http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/08_union.shtml</a></p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> Part of it is due to the auto companies' short-sightedness in opposing national health care back in the '40s and '50s <strong>Roy</strong>, and instead opting for private health insurance. Cost them less in the short run, but is costing them now. It is really the nationalized health care (and lower minimum wages) in other countries that is killing the US auto manufacturing base. Not to mention that Detroit seems bound and determined to keep making cars that consumers don't want and fighting any progressive safety or environmental laws. Nobody &quot;buys American&quot; for the sake of it anymore because &quot;American&quot;&nbsp;today means what &quot;Japanese&quot; meant in the '50s: poor engineering, shoddy construction, priced inappropriately, and thoroughly inferior to anything else on the market. It is almost as if the US auto makers <em>want</em> to go out of business......<br /> <br /> But I wouldn't blame the unions too much for the problems caused by the company executives. The unions are at fault for helping them (and going along for the ride), but not for causing it.<br /> <br /> PS: I believe that foreign manufacturers make more cars domestically than &quot;American&quot; companies these days. I think they employ more people, too. Union membership is lower or non-existent, but that's because they actually <em>take care</em> of their employees and make a union superfluous. Now if the companies start treating the employees like US companies did in the '20s, all bets are off. But I wouldn't bet on that. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121971 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121971 Part of it is due to the auto companies' short-sightedness in opposing national health care back in the '40s and '50s <strong>Roy</strong>, and instead opting for private health insurance. Cost them less in the short run, but is costing them now. It is really the nationalized health care (and lower minimum wages) in other countries that is killing the US auto manufacturing base. Not to mention that Detroit seems bound and determined to keep making cars that consumers don't want and fighting any progressive safety or environmental laws. Nobody &quot;buys American&quot; for the sake of it anymore because &quot;American&quot;&nbsp;today means what &quot;Japanese&quot; meant in the '50s: poor engineering, shoddy construction, priced inappropriately, and thoroughly inferior to anything else on the market. It is almost as if the US auto makers <em>want</em> to go out of business......<br /> <br /> But I wouldn't blame the unions too much for the problems caused by the company executives. The unions are at fault for helping them (and going along for the ride), but not for causing it.<br /> <br /> PS: I believe that foreign manufacturers make more cars domestically than &quot;American&quot; companies these days. I think they employ more people, too. Union membership is lower or non-existent, but that's because they actually <em>take care</em> of their employees and make a union superfluous. Now if the companies start treating the employees like US companies did in the '20s, all bets are off. But I wouldn't bet on that. <p>I think it's <u>a</u> factor, Roy, but it's not the only one.&nbsp; The pure-and-simple profit motive accounts for the rest of it.</p> <p>Profit in itself is ethical -- indeed necessary -- but it shouldn't be pursued in ways detrimental to American workers.&nbsp; I'm pretty protectionist when it comes to foreign trade.&nbsp; Call it a patriotic streak, but I think American interests should come ahead of the bottom line.</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121972 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121972 <p>I think it's <u>a</u> factor, Roy, but it's not the only one.&nbsp; The pure-and-simple profit motive accounts for the rest of it.</p> <p>Profit in itself is ethical -- indeed necessary -- but it shouldn't be pursued in ways detrimental to American workers.&nbsp; I'm pretty protectionist when it comes to foreign trade.&nbsp; Call it a patriotic streak, but I think American interests should come ahead of the bottom line.</p> <font size="4"><strong>This should have gone along with the story folks....<br /> <br /> An FAQ from Michigan on What Right to Work Laws are there...<br /> </strong></font><br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=8694">http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=8694</a> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121976 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121976 <font size="4"><strong>This should have gone along with the story folks....<br /> <br /> An FAQ from Michigan on What Right to Work Laws are there...<br /> </strong></font><br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=8694">http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=8694</a> A study from Berkeley,&nbsp; Weeeeee! http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121980 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121980 A study from Berkeley,&nbsp; Weeeeee! Ah, so &quot;freeloading&quot; is good for employees. Yes, I can't find any flaws in that logic <a href="http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/FSP/FSP358/330007.jpg"><strong>NAWER</strong></a>. While &quot;open shops&quot; <em>do</em> harm unions, I fail to see how &quot;right to work&quot; is <em><strong><u>good</u></strong></em> for employees (other than the aforementioned &quot;freeloading&quot;).<br /> <br /> BTW: &quot;open shops&quot; only really work in a workplace that already has union representation. Which would be an implicit advocacy <em>for</em> unions, would it not?<br /> <br /> Do you anything resembling a point here?<br /> <br /> <img alt="" src="http://a.chavasse.free.fr/failboat.jpg" /> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121987 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_121987 Ah, so &quot;freeloading&quot; is good for employees. Yes, I can't find any flaws in that logic <a href="http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/FSP/FSP358/330007.jpg"><strong>NAWER</strong></a>. While &quot;open shops&quot; <em>do</em> harm unions, I fail to see how &quot;right to work&quot; is <em><strong><u>good</u></strong></em> for employees (other than the aforementioned &quot;freeloading&quot;).<br /> <br /> BTW: &quot;open shops&quot; only really work in a workplace that already has union representation. Which would be an implicit advocacy <em>for</em> unions, would it not?<br /> <br /> Do you anything resembling a point here?<br /> <br /> <img alt="" src="http://a.chavasse.free.fr/failboat.jpg" /> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">A study from Berkeley,&nbsp; Weeeeee</font></p> <p>Ah, another rightwinger ignoring the message and shooting the messenger.</p> <p>I guess you missed the part where the University of Michigan was involved in the study as well.</p> <p>What put down do you have for UM?</p> <p>BTW, since you obviously didn't bother to check the cite, most of the data came from the U.S. government.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122002 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122002 <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">A study from Berkeley,&nbsp; Weeeeee</font></p> <p>Ah, another rightwinger ignoring the message and shooting the messenger.</p> <p>I guess you missed the part where the University of Michigan was involved in the study as well.</p> <p>What put down do you have for UM?</p> <p>BTW, since you obviously didn't bother to check the cite, most of the data came from the U.S. government.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><font color="#ff0000" size="2">An FAQ from Michigan on What Right to Work Laws are there</font></p> <p><font size="2">You really need to do a better job of investigating your sources.</font></p> <p><font color="#0000ff">The following is a brief explanation of the Mackinac Center's approach to public policy, the principles which guide our work, and why the term &quot;free-market&quot; best describes our institute.</font></p> <p><font size="2">In other words, pro-business without restrictions.</font></p> <p><font size="2"></font></p> <p>&nbsp;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122004 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122004 <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><font color="#ff0000" size="2">An FAQ from Michigan on What Right to Work Laws are there</font></p> <p><font size="2">You really need to do a better job of investigating your sources.</font></p> <p><font color="#0000ff">The following is a brief explanation of the Mackinac Center's approach to public policy, the principles which guide our work, and why the term &quot;free-market&quot; best describes our institute.</font></p> <p><font size="2">In other words, pro-business without restrictions.</font></p> <p><font size="2"></font></p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>I checked the site.&nbsp; As one right winger to a left winger,&nbsp; Those who do the studies can find information to support what they want to prove, both right and Left.&nbsp; U of M is as bad as Berkeley.</p> <p>Spam Code-BMROG= Be More Right Or Gag...</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122011 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122011 <p>I checked the site.&nbsp; As one right winger to a left winger,&nbsp; Those who do the studies can find information to support what they want to prove, both right and Left.&nbsp; U of M is as bad as Berkeley.</p> <p>Spam Code-BMROG= Be More Right Or Gag...</p> <p><em>...but that's because they actually take care of their employees and make a union superfluous.</em></p> <p>Excellent point Mattloch. I think it helps the workplace when the relationship between white collar and blue collar is symbiotic, rather than adversarial, however rare it may be. &nbsp;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122025 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122025 <p><em>...but that's because they actually take care of their employees and make a union superfluous.</em></p> <p>Excellent point Mattloch. I think it helps the workplace when the relationship between white collar and blue collar is symbiotic, rather than adversarial, however rare it may be. &nbsp;</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Then provide a cite to a study that comes to a different conclusion.</p> <p>We'll wait.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122026 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122026 <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>Then provide a cite to a study that comes to a different conclusion.</p> <p>We'll wait.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> So if the studies can prove any point of view <strong>Neverleft</strong>, that's when you have to go into the <u>analysis</u>, and <em>how</em> they use the raw data.<br /> <br /> Care to comment on any analysis offered in this blog thread (mine, or anyone else's), or are you going to stick to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Ad_hominem_circumstantial">ad hominem</a> logical fallacies today?<br /> <br /> Thank you Robb for that complement. I wasn't sure those labor subject classes would pay off in the end, but they were great history lessons at the least. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122036 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122036 So if the studies can prove any point of view <strong>Neverleft</strong>, that's when you have to go into the <u>analysis</u>, and <em>how</em> they use the raw data.<br /> <br /> Care to comment on any analysis offered in this blog thread (mine, or anyone else's), or are you going to stick to the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem#Ad_hominem_circumstantial">ad hominem</a> logical fallacies today?<br /> <br /> Thank you Robb for that complement. I wasn't sure those labor subject classes would pay off in the end, but they were great history lessons at the least. Unions are like anything else. Some good, some not good. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122051 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122051 Unions are like anything else. Some good, some not good. <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Unions are like anything else. Some good, some not good</font></p> <p>Very true.</p> <p>False&nbsp;flag groups like NAWER want to throw out the baby with the bath water.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122052 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122052 <p>&nbsp;</p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Unions are like anything else. Some good, some not good</font></p> <p>Very true.</p> <p>False&nbsp;flag groups like NAWER want to throw out the baby with the bath water.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> Unions are like governments; they're only as good as the people elected to run them.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br /> <br /> James Geluso<br /> Former vice-president, CWA Local 37082<br /> (had to resign when I moved and took a job at Local 39202) http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122286 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122286 Unions are like governments; they're only as good as the people elected to run them.&nbsp;&nbsp; <br /> <br /> James Geluso<br /> Former vice-president, CWA Local 37082<br /> (had to resign when I moved and took a job at Local 39202) Right on, James. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122288 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122288 Right on, James. <div>Think back,you all know the history of the USA,  I of course was'nt alive then, but  I've seen films, and books, of when this country was in it'sinfancy. Before the industrial  revolution.Remember? The people were very rich, or very poor.  Remember the film of the Ford assembly plant, where the restrooms were in the middle of the plant, and the top half of the walls were glass. No goofing off there. The unions changed all that, gave the workers dignity, and pride in production. And raised their living standing. I personaly wasproud to be a union member.made a good living, and get a pretty good pension.</div> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122295 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122295 <div>Think back,you all know the history of the USA,  I of course was'nt alive then, but  I've seen films, and books, of when this country was in it'sinfancy. Before the industrial  revolution.Remember? The people were very rich, or very poor.  Remember the film of the Ford assembly plant, where the restrooms were in the middle of the plant, and the top half of the walls were glass. No goofing off there. The unions changed all that, gave the workers dignity, and pride in production. And raised their living standing. I personaly wasproud to be a union member.made a good living, and get a pretty good pension.</div> And now look at the unions.  Putting aluminium cans in the door frames.  Poor quality of work. Lack of competitiveness... http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122304 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/NAWER/12517/#c_122304 And now look at the unions.  Putting aluminium cans in the door frames.  Poor quality of work. Lack of competitiveness...