http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333 Salon.com has a good writeup about the &quot;March on DC&quot; here. It points out many of the groups that engaged in the march Saturday were not the usual left &quot;wingnuts&quot; and hippies: &quot;Regardless of size, the protest felt different. The demographics of the crowd had changed. As opposition to the war in Iraq mounts, sparked by the president's decision to send 21,500 more troops, protesting against it has become mainstream. There were plenty of professional protesters in evidence Saturday, the kind for whom protests are a lifestyle choice, but there were also more yuppies, more families with small children, more older people and even a fair number of stylishly dressed young girls in North Face jackets and Ralph Lauren sunglasses. Just as important, the confused, off-topic rhetoric of so many past protests was noticeably muted.&quot; Salon then goes on to point out the diversity of the speakers but puts it in a negative light, as if its a bad thing. They also poke fun at the extremists or &quot;wingnuts&quot; in attendance. I disagree because peace groups and activists are not about narrow vision. We, in the anti-war movement, welcome everyone that agrees on one thing: GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW! If they bring their own causes to the march, so be it. Some people don't like that the left welcomes people of dubious mindset, and some think this detracts from our message. I do not think it does. I think it shows that we welcome diversity and even if some folks don't agree that freeing &quot;Mumia&quot; is the right thing to do, or that 9/11 was an inside job..we agree on a bigger issue that affects every man, woman and child..the War in Iraq is wrong, its expensive, its killing our citizens and innocent Iraqi&rsquo;s, and it needs to end as soon as humanly possible. Nonetheless, it is a good article to read, it has interviews with first time protesters, and it makes one point very clear..The President is helping our numbers grow. His escalation of the war in Iraq is bringing out more people who have never protested before and from all walks of life. The young people are becoming more active. We see people in their 70&rsquo;s marching when most likely that isn&rsquo;t an easy thing for them physically. Republicans that are tired of this war-mongering, budget-busting administration are showing up as well. People in expensive clothes are standing alongside veteran protestors and people in costumes. Bear in mind, there were NO incidents that needed police intervention. In spite of the fact that the government suddenly no longer supplies crowd estimates..there were enough people to surround the Capitol. Read that again..protesters surrounded the Capitol. If that doesn&rsquo;t warm the cockles of your anti-war heart, I don&rsquo;t know what will my dear reader. There were hundreds of thousands according to many media sources. UFPJ puts the number at half a million. If you have ever seen the Mall in DC, it&rsquo;s a huge place and will hold half a million people, I know..I have been there for protests during the Vietnam era. &nbsp; Add to the DC march the 100 others that took place at the same time around our nation and you have a huge turnout of people with one common goal: End the War Now! So, like Bush did in Iraq, he does here at home..he has created a situation that sparks involvement and people are not afraid to speak out, they feel they must speak out and I agree with that assessment completely. Bush is his own worst enemy. Thanks George. We, the majority of American citizens, would really appreciate it if you listened to us, we put you in office. Try talking to your enemies instead of blowing them to kingdom come. Attempt dialog instead of bullets. Show the world that we are above using the same tactics as the terrorists..just try it..you will like the results far better than the ones you are currently seeing in Iraq, not to mention that talking to people costs far less than killing them. &nbsp; For an independent POV and additional pictures of the March on DC that does not have that MSM spin, DCIndymedia has a good writeup as well. Tags: Politics, Bush, Iraq, MarchonDC Salon.com has a good writeup about the &quot;March on DC&quot; here. It points out many of the groups that engaged in the march Saturday were not the usual left &quot;wingnuts&quot; and hippies: &quot;Regardless of size, the protest felt different. The demographics of the crowd had changed. As opposition to the war in Iraq mounts, sparked by the president's decision to send 21,500 more troops, protesting against it has become mainstream. There were plenty of professional protesters in evidence Saturday, the kind for whom protests are a lifestyle choice, but there were also more yuppies, more families with small children, more older people and even a fair number of stylishly dressed young girls in North Face jackets and Ralph Lauren sunglasses. Just as important, the confused, off-topic rhetoric of so many past protests was noticeably muted.&quot; Salon then goes on to point out the diversity of the speakers but puts it in a negative light, as if its a bad thing. They also poke fun at the extremists or &quot;wingnuts&quot; in attendance. I disagree because peace groups and activists are not about narrow vision. We, in the anti-war movement, welcome everyone that agrees on one thing: GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW! If they bring their own causes to the march, so be it. Some people don't like that the left welcomes people of dubious mindset, and some think this detracts from our message. I do not think it does. I think it shows that we welcome diversity and even if some folks don't agree that freeing &quot;Mumia&quot; is the right thing to do, or that 9/11 was an inside job..we agree on a bigger issue that affects every man, woman and child..the War in Iraq is wrong, its expensive, its killing our citizens and innocent Iraqi&rsquo;s, and it needs to end as soon as humanly possible. Nonetheless, it is a good article to read, it has interviews with first time protesters, and it makes one point very clear..The President is helping our numbers grow. His escalation of the war in Iraq is bringing out more people who have never protested before and from all walks of life. The young people are becoming more active. We see people in their 70&rsquo;s marching when most likely that isn&rsquo;t an easy thing for them physically. Republicans that are tired of this war-mongering, budget-busting administration are showing up as well. People in expensive clothes are standing alongside veteran protestors and people in costumes. Bear in mind, there were NO incidents that needed police intervention. In spite of the fact that the government suddenly no longer supplies crowd estimates..there were enough people to surround the Capitol. Read that again..protesters surrounded the Capitol. If that doesn&rsquo;t warm the cockles of your anti-war heart, I don&rsquo;t know what will my dear reader. There were hundreds of thousands according to many media sources. UFPJ puts the number at half a million. If you have ever seen the Mall in DC, it&rsquo;s a huge place and will hold half a million people, I know..I have been there for protests during the Vietnam era. &nbsp; Add to the DC march the 100 others that took place at the same time around our nation and you have a huge turnout of people with one common goal: End the War Now! So, like Bush did in Iraq, he does here at home..he has created a situation that sparks involvement and people are not afraid to speak out, they feel they must speak out and I agree with that assessment completely. Bush is his own worst enemy. Thanks George. We, the majority of American citizens, would really appreciate it if you listened to us, we put you in office. Try talking to your enemies instead of blowing them to kingdom come. Attempt dialog instead of bullets. Show the world that we are above using the same tactics as the terrorists..just try it..you will like the results far better than the ones you are currently seeing in Iraq, not to mention that talking to people costs far less than killing them. &nbsp; For an independent POV and additional pictures of the March on DC that does not have that MSM spin, DCIndymedia has a good writeup as well. Tags: Politics, Bush, Iraq, MarchonDC en-us Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:12:56 PST <p>Dusty's right.&nbsp; And Where have all the hippies gone?&nbsp; The hippies have all gone&nbsp;pro-war, are chanting my John Lennon satire that begins with &quot;All we are saying is give war a chance,&quot; and have adopted this as their theme song:</p> <p><em>What Part of Right-wing Don't You Understand?</em><br /> Dr BLT<br /> words and music by Dr BLT (c)2007<br /> <a href="http://www.drblt.net/music/whatrightwing.mp3">http://www.drblt.net/music/whatrightwing.mp3</a></p> <p>Just kidding.&nbsp; I'm not pro-war at all, just pro-reality, and the reality is, if we pull out too soon and without an adequate alternative plan, it will cause an escalation in the civil war.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p> <p>Blog n roll!<br /> </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53422 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53422 <p>Dusty's right.&nbsp; And Where have all the hippies gone?&nbsp; The hippies have all gone&nbsp;pro-war, are chanting my John Lennon satire that begins with &quot;All we are saying is give war a chance,&quot; and have adopted this as their theme song:</p> <p><em>What Part of Right-wing Don't You Understand?</em><br /> Dr BLT<br /> words and music by Dr BLT (c)2007<br /> <a href="http://www.drblt.net/music/whatrightwing.mp3">http://www.drblt.net/music/whatrightwing.mp3</a></p> <p>Just kidding.&nbsp; I'm not pro-war at all, just pro-reality, and the reality is, if we pull out too soon and without an adequate alternative plan, it will cause an escalation in the civil war.&nbsp; &nbsp;</p> <p>Blog n roll!<br /> </p> Good morning BLT :) Many of the polls I have seen don't give people an option of a timeline. If they specifically ask people what amount of time should be given for Iraq to turnaround many people say 6 months to a year. The bottom line is however, most people polled want reduction, not escalation in troops numbers. People seem to think that a political effort is needed more than a military one.<br /> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53427 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53427 Good morning BLT :) Many of the polls I have seen don't give people an option of a timeline. If they specifically ask people what amount of time should be given for Iraq to turnaround many people say 6 months to a year. The bottom line is however, most people polled want reduction, not escalation in troops numbers. People seem to think that a political effort is needed more than a military one.<br /> <p>And if we stay there, BLT, adding surge after surge of troops, it will cause an escalation in the civil war.</p> <p>.</p> <p>The question is whether you want to pay for that civil war with 3080 dead soldiers, or 6080.&nbsp; Or 12080.</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53432 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53432 <p>And if we stay there, BLT, adding surge after surge of troops, it will cause an escalation in the civil war.</p> <p>.</p> <p>The question is whether you want to pay for that civil war with 3080 dead soldiers, or 6080.&nbsp; Or 12080.</p> <p>I understand both sides.&nbsp; It's an ugly scenario either way, but I tend to think that the diplomatic plan needs to be further established before troops can pull out, otherwise chaos will ensue.&nbsp;&nbsp; BTW, good morning and happy Monday to both of you.&nbsp; May this be the Monday that the right and the left unite and begin to build on what they share in common.</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53434 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53434 <p>I understand both sides.&nbsp; It's an ugly scenario either way, but I tend to think that the diplomatic plan needs to be further established before troops can pull out, otherwise chaos will ensue.&nbsp;&nbsp; BTW, good morning and happy Monday to both of you.&nbsp; May this be the Monday that the right and the left unite and begin to build on what they share in common.</p> BLT, we have had years to develop a diplomatic plan to end the war in Iraq. How long is needed? How do you put a time limit on a President that has said he doesn't care what people think, he will do what he wants. Most articles I have read say the civil war will spike no matter when we leave..now or years from now. its the history of the region. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53437 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53437 BLT, we have had years to develop a diplomatic plan to end the war in Iraq. How long is needed? How do you put a time limit on a President that has said he doesn't care what people think, he will do what he wants. Most articles I have read say the civil war will spike no matter when we leave..now or years from now. its the history of the region. That's what the smart ones are saying dusty. I recently read an interview about General Westley Clark (4 star general, rhodes scholar) when he was on Hannity  where he said basically that. This is a political problem that won't be solved with guns. He believed the same to be true of Iran. The threat of our military power needs to be there, but most of the problems can be solved politically. And we'd be safer in the long run if we solved our problems diplomatically as well. Pretty amazing to hear a General say that.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/1/24/161617/081">http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/1/24/161617/081</a><br /> <br /> Seriously, this guy needs to run for president. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53439 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53439 That's what the smart ones are saying dusty. I recently read an interview about General Westley Clark (4 star general, rhodes scholar) when he was on Hannity  where he said basically that. This is a political problem that won't be solved with guns. He believed the same to be true of Iran. The threat of our military power needs to be there, but most of the problems can be solved politically. And we'd be safer in the long run if we solved our problems diplomatically as well. Pretty amazing to hear a General say that.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/1/24/161617/081">http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/1/24/161617/081</a><br /> <br /> Seriously, this guy needs to run for president. Does anybody know what the plan will be when this &quot;surge&quot; is over, if it's unsuccessful? Has anyone in the Administration even been asked about it? I know that's &quot;future planning&quot;, and something they don't want to engage in, but isn't that part of what got us into this situation in the first place? http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53441 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53441 Does anybody know what the plan will be when this &quot;surge&quot; is over, if it's unsuccessful? Has anyone in the Administration even been asked about it? I know that's &quot;future planning&quot;, and something they don't want to engage in, but isn't that part of what got us into this situation in the first place? General Clarke sent me an email today Pete! Seriously, he is part of the VoteVets.org group and he is very vocal on the subject of Iraq and Iran. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53442 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53442 General Clarke sent me an email today Pete! Seriously, he is part of the VoteVets.org group and he is very vocal on the subject of Iraq and Iran. &quot;That's what the smart ones are saying dusty.&quot;&nbsp; I guess that makes me one of the dumb ones.&nbsp; As I've said before, I've never been one of the sharpest tools in the shed.&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53452 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53452 &quot;That's what the smart ones are saying dusty.&quot;&nbsp; I guess that makes me one of the dumb ones.&nbsp; As I've said before, I've never been one of the sharpest tools in the shed.&nbsp; Now, BLT..why do you take that personally? It wasn't aimed at you..it was in direct response to my post about various talking&nbsp; heads who have been in government or military positions that directly contradict what the President is trying to sell us.<br /> <br /> If your joking..fine..if your not..I have to question why you would relate to Pete's comment in that way. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53455 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53455 Now, BLT..why do you take that personally? It wasn't aimed at you..it was in direct response to my post about various talking&nbsp; heads who have been in government or military positions that directly contradict what the President is trying to sell us.<br /> <br /> If your joking..fine..if your not..I have to question why you would relate to Pete's comment in that way. Not everybody can be a 4 star general and a rhodes scholar Doc. I was very impressed with Gen. Clark during the last election cycle, but unfortunately for this country, he hadn't learned how to run for president...yet. I understand a lot of republicans like him as well. <br /> <br /> BLT, you never told me how big that animated gif of the band playing is. File size I mean. What is it 40MB?<br /> <br /> Dusty, I took it as a joke, whether it was or not. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53459 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53459 Not everybody can be a 4 star general and a rhodes scholar Doc. I was very impressed with Gen. Clark during the last election cycle, but unfortunately for this country, he hadn't learned how to run for president...yet. I understand a lot of republicans like him as well. <br /> <br /> BLT, you never told me how big that animated gif of the band playing is. File size I mean. What is it 40MB?<br /> <br /> Dusty, I took it as a joke, whether it was or not. <p>I'm supporting Clark for either the #1 or #2 position on the Democratic ticket.</p> <p>.</p> <p>Mattloch, planning for the surge's failure would interrupt the clapping and Tinkerbelle might die...</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53460 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53460 <p>I'm supporting Clark for either the #1 or #2 position on the Democratic ticket.</p> <p>.</p> <p>Mattloch, planning for the surge's failure would interrupt the clapping and Tinkerbelle might die...</p> Since we had no plan for post war Iraq when we busted in there..I highly doubt they have a plan &quot;B&quot; if this newest one doesn't work Mattloch. Planning isn't one of their 'strong suits' in the West Wing. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53461 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53461 Since we had no plan for post war Iraq when we busted in there..I highly doubt they have a plan &quot;B&quot; if this newest one doesn't work Mattloch. Planning isn't one of their 'strong suits' in the West Wing. <p align="left">I suspect the &quot;plan&quot; is:&nbsp; &quot;Wait four Friedmans and hand it over to the new President, God help him.&quot;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53464 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53464 <p align="left">I suspect the &quot;plan&quot; is:&nbsp; &quot;Wait four Friedmans and hand it over to the new President, God help him.&quot;</p> <p>What Civil war?</p> <p>From Faux news, circa 2004......</p> <p><strong>NEW YORK&nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp; Defense Secretary&nbsp;<strong>Donald Rumsfeld</strong> said Monday he does not expect civil war in Iraq and pointed to the recent retaking of the former insurgent stronghold of Samarra as evidence of progress in stabilizing the country before elections in January.</strong></p> <p nd="1">&quot;I don't think it's going to happen,&quot; Rumsfeld told the Council on Foreign Relations when asked about the threat of civil war. &quot;But what has to be done in that country is what basically was done in Samarra over the last 48 hours.&quot;</p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Cheney, 3/2003.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;I think it'll go relatively quickly, &hellip;Weeks rather than months.&quot;<br /> </p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Cheney, 5/2005.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;They're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency.&quot;<br /> </p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Cheney, 03/2006.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;Q: Do you still believe the <span class="sb"><strong>insurgency is in its final throes?</strong></span> &nbsp;Cheney: <span class="sb"><strong>Yes.</strong></span>&quot;</p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Cheney, 6/2004.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;Two days ahead of schedule, the world witnessed the arrival of a free and sovereign Iraq.&quot;<br /> </p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb" style="COLOR: #333"><strong>Rumsfeld, 7/2003.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;I don't do <span class="sb"><strong>quagmires</strong></span>.&quot;<br /> </p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb" style="COLOR: #333"><strong>Wolfowitz, 3/2003.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">Iraq: &quot;can really finance its own reconstruction.&quot;<br /> </p> <div class="marg0 s3 fa fltL" style="WIDTH: 97px">Aug. 6, 2006</div> <div class="marg0 s3 fa"><strong>Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State</strong></div> <p nd="1"><span class="Text1"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">But it would be really erroneous to say that the Iraqis are somehow making a choice for civil war, or I think even sliding into civil war.</font></span></p> <span class="Text1"> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Bush, 5/2005.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;Good news to the men and women who fought ... their mission is complete.&quot;<br /> </p> <p nd="1"><span class="Text1"> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" class="nrml"> <tbody> <tr> <td> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 4px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 5px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #eee"><strong><span class="sb" style="COLOR: #000">Cheney:</span><br /> </strong>09/2006 </div> </td> <td><span class="fv"><font face="Verdana">&quot;If we had to do it over again <span class="sb" style="COLOR: #555"><strong>we would do exactly the same thing</strong></span>.&quot;</font></span><br /> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </span><br /> </p> <p nd="1">&nbsp;</p> <p nd="1">&nbsp;</p> <p nd="1"><br /> </p> </span> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53466 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53466 <p>What Civil war?</p> <p>From Faux news, circa 2004......</p> <p><strong>NEW YORK&nbsp;&mdash;&nbsp; Defense Secretary&nbsp;<strong>Donald Rumsfeld</strong> said Monday he does not expect civil war in Iraq and pointed to the recent retaking of the former insurgent stronghold of Samarra as evidence of progress in stabilizing the country before elections in January.</strong></p> <p nd="1">&quot;I don't think it's going to happen,&quot; Rumsfeld told the Council on Foreign Relations when asked about the threat of civil war. &quot;But what has to be done in that country is what basically was done in Samarra over the last 48 hours.&quot;</p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Cheney, 3/2003.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;I think it'll go relatively quickly, &hellip;Weeks rather than months.&quot;<br /> </p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Cheney, 5/2005.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;They're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency.&quot;<br /> </p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Cheney, 03/2006.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;Q: Do you still believe the <span class="sb"><strong>insurgency is in its final throes?</strong></span> &nbsp;Cheney: <span class="sb"><strong>Yes.</strong></span>&quot;</p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Cheney, 6/2004.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;Two days ahead of schedule, the world witnessed the arrival of a free and sovereign Iraq.&quot;<br /> </p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb" style="COLOR: #333"><strong>Rumsfeld, 7/2003.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;I don't do <span class="sb"><strong>quagmires</strong></span>.&quot;<br /> </p> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb" style="COLOR: #333"><strong>Wolfowitz, 3/2003.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">Iraq: &quot;can really finance its own reconstruction.&quot;<br /> </p> <div class="marg0 s3 fa fltL" style="WIDTH: 97px">Aug. 6, 2006</div> <div class="marg0 s3 fa"><strong>Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State</strong></div> <p nd="1"><span class="Text1"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">But it would be really erroneous to say that the Iraqis are somehow making a choice for civil war, or I think even sliding into civil war.</font></span></p> <span class="Text1"> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; FLOAT: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 6px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px"><span class="sb"><strong>Bush, 5/2005.</strong></span> </div> <p nd="1">&quot;Good news to the men and women who fought ... their mission is complete.&quot;<br /> </p> <p nd="1"><span class="Text1"> <table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" class="nrml"> <tbody> <tr> <td> <div style="PADDING-RIGHT: 4px; PADDING-LEFT: 4px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 8px 5px 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #eee"><strong><span class="sb" style="COLOR: #000">Cheney:</span><br /> </strong>09/2006 </div> </td> <td><span class="fv"><font face="Verdana">&quot;If we had to do it over again <span class="sb" style="COLOR: #555"><strong>we would do exactly the same thing</strong></span>.&quot;</font></span><br /> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </span><br /> </p> <p nd="1">&nbsp;</p> <p nd="1">&nbsp;</p> <p nd="1"><br /> </p> </span> I have to say I agree random..the next resident of the Oval office will have to deal with the mess in Iraq. Bush has no intention of doing anything but perpetuating the madness. That means..it won't be a republican I bet..:P http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53467 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53467 I have to say I agree random..the next resident of the Oval office will have to deal with the mess in Iraq. Bush has no intention of doing anything but perpetuating the madness. That means..it won't be a republican I bet..:P Funny how that turned out antiex...seems Samarra is a <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-samarra29jan29,1,7140321.story?coll=la-news-a_section">hotbed of insurgents again</a>. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53468 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53468 Funny how that turned out antiex...seems Samarra is a <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-fg-samarra29jan29,1,7140321.story?coll=la-news-a_section">hotbed of insurgents again</a>. This is what some people are saying is part of the Republican's broader plan. Leave it for the Dems, then blame them for the country's collapse and failure of the &quot;larger&quot; experiment of &quot;nation-building&quot; and &quot;spreading democracy&quot;. Then they'll have another one-term Dem pres and can attack them as weak on &quot;defense&quot; for another decade or two. So Bush's plan is no longer &quot;winning&quot;, just to keep us in there for another two years so that they can blame the Dems for it. <u>I'm</u> not saying this is their plan (for those who can't help but point out we're always &quot;hatin&quot; on Bush), but just drawing a parallel between Iraq and Vietnam, and passing on other's take on the situation. If a &quot;conservative&quot; wants to counter this idea, have at it. <strong>Please</strong>. I want to see something that isn't cynically political or positively Machiavellian, and it's getting harder to find things like that these days..... http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53470 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53470 This is what some people are saying is part of the Republican's broader plan. Leave it for the Dems, then blame them for the country's collapse and failure of the &quot;larger&quot; experiment of &quot;nation-building&quot; and &quot;spreading democracy&quot;. Then they'll have another one-term Dem pres and can attack them as weak on &quot;defense&quot; for another decade or two. So Bush's plan is no longer &quot;winning&quot;, just to keep us in there for another two years so that they can blame the Dems for it. <u>I'm</u> not saying this is their plan (for those who can't help but point out we're always &quot;hatin&quot; on Bush), but just drawing a parallel between Iraq and Vietnam, and passing on other's take on the situation. If a &quot;conservative&quot; wants to counter this idea, have at it. <strong>Please</strong>. I want to see something that isn't cynically political or positively Machiavellian, and it's getting harder to find things like that these days..... No, I have read some of the pundits stating the case for that POV as well Mattloch. It gives the republican's running for office time to regroup, and yes, to make it look as if the democrats in office screwed up Iraq..wotta deal! http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53471 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53471 No, I have read some of the pundits stating the case for that POV as well Mattloch. It gives the republican's running for office time to regroup, and yes, to make it look as if the democrats in office screwed up Iraq..wotta deal! The problem is that no one is going to buy it.&nbsp; Had the war started 2 years ago, maybe they could pull it off.&nbsp; But at that point the war will be 6 years old.&nbsp; My gut feeling is that Congress is going to cut the funding before that.&nbsp; Senators are already proposing it.&nbsp; It'll be 6 months before it becomes the right thing to do. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53473 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53473 The problem is that no one is going to buy it.&nbsp; Had the war started 2 years ago, maybe they could pull it off.&nbsp; But at that point the war will be 6 years old.&nbsp; My gut feeling is that Congress is going to cut the funding before that.&nbsp; Senators are already proposing it.&nbsp; It'll be 6 months before it becomes the right thing to do. Hey Tom, many folks fault Nixon for Vietnam when it was Kennedy and Johnson who escalated it first. I really think the general population has a short memory and add to that, the fact that the smear campaigns will be in full swing if the Dem's don't get us out of Iraq. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53474 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53474 Hey Tom, many folks fault Nixon for Vietnam when it was Kennedy and Johnson who escalated it first. I really think the general population has a short memory and add to that, the fact that the smear campaigns will be in full swing if the Dem's don't get us out of Iraq. Maybe because of Nixon's calculated deceit which widened and prolonged the war for political gain?&nbsp; He certainly made it his own.&nbsp; Remember, by the time of Kennedy's assassination we had fewer troops in Vietnam than are in the latest &quot;surge&quot; into Iraq. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53476 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53476 Maybe because of Nixon's calculated deceit which widened and prolonged the war for political gain?&nbsp; He certainly made it his own.&nbsp; Remember, by the time of Kennedy's assassination we had fewer troops in Vietnam than are in the latest &quot;surge&quot; into Iraq. Johnson escalated the troops from 16,000 to over half a million during his presidency. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53478 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53478 Johnson escalated the troops from 16,000 to over half a million during his presidency. <p>Right.&nbsp; I think had Kennedy lived, we'd have seen a very different outcome.&nbsp; Vietnam would still have fallen, but the Vietnam Memorial would have been a LOT smaller.&nbsp; </p> <p>.</p> <p>I would fault Kennedy for listening to the wrong people in the beginning, but Johnson for making a bad situation into a disaster, and Nixon for using that disaster for political gain.</p> <p>.</p> <p>At least Johnson had the good grace not to run again.</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53479 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53479 <p>Right.&nbsp; I think had Kennedy lived, we'd have seen a very different outcome.&nbsp; Vietnam would still have fallen, but the Vietnam Memorial would have been a LOT smaller.&nbsp; </p> <p>.</p> <p>I would fault Kennedy for listening to the wrong people in the beginning, but Johnson for making a bad situation into a disaster, and Nixon for using that disaster for political gain.</p> <p>.</p> <p>At least Johnson had the good grace not to run again.</p> People fault Nixon because he was President when they began to oppose it.&nbsp; The war had about 80 percent support to start, now down to about 30.&nbsp; Those 50% will remember that Bush was on the opposite side from them and the 20% who opposed it from the outset will also fault him. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53482 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53482 People fault Nixon because he was President when they began to oppose it.&nbsp; The war had about 80 percent support to start, now down to about 30.&nbsp; Those 50% will remember that Bush was on the opposite side from them and the 20% who opposed it from the outset will also fault him. Well, I for one, did not ever support the war in Vietnam, and I protested when Johnson was in office and started his escalation. Nixon did many stupid and illegal things during his tenure, continuing the war for his own agenda was just one of them. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53484 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53484 Well, I for one, did not ever support the war in Vietnam, and I protested when Johnson was in office and started his escalation. Nixon did many stupid and illegal things during his tenure, continuing the war for his own agenda was just one of them. Which would validate the point in that you also blame Johnson.&nbsp; Most people who opposed Vietnam didn't do so until Nixon was President.&nbsp; The people who changed their minds during the war blame the person or people whose logic and observations didn't follow their own. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53490 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53490 Which would validate the point in that you also blame Johnson.&nbsp; Most people who opposed Vietnam didn't do so until Nixon was President.&nbsp; The people who changed their minds during the war blame the person or people whose logic and observations didn't follow their own. <p>the day mr bush was elected the 1st time i told everyone in my office we will be going to war of course they laughed </p> <p>as they are all repub   we need to pull out if the iraq can not control the killing i say let them kill themselves sorry but i</p> <p>have no compassion for iraq</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53491 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53491 <p>the day mr bush was elected the 1st time i told everyone in my office we will be going to war of course they laughed </p> <p>as they are all repub   we need to pull out if the iraq can not control the killing i say let them kill themselves sorry but i</p> <p>have no compassion for iraq</p> Johnson admitted that he got us into something bad, and he didn't have a plan for success. Whether that's &quot;getting out while the gettin's good&quot; is debatable. At least he didn't claim to have&nbsp;a &quot;secret plan&quot; for success, which was continuing it for political reasons, all the while broadening it's reach into other countries (illegally) and tossing more of America's boys into the meat grinder. Nixon and that war criminal Kissinger turned a losing proposition into a bloodbath. The war turned from an exercise in futility into a criminal enterprise. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53492 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53492 Johnson admitted that he got us into something bad, and he didn't have a plan for success. Whether that's &quot;getting out while the gettin's good&quot; is debatable. At least he didn't claim to have&nbsp;a &quot;secret plan&quot; for success, which was continuing it for political reasons, all the while broadening it's reach into other countries (illegally) and tossing more of America's boys into the meat grinder. Nixon and that war criminal Kissinger turned a losing proposition into a bloodbath. The war turned from an exercise in futility into a criminal enterprise. I have compassion for the Iraqi's..but their history shows they have none for each other. I want a united Iraq, one who can take care of their citizens, raise the standard of living up, and defend themselves from outsiders. I just do not see how staying there for years&amp;years, spending trillions and burying more of our own will accomplish that. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53493 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53493 I have compassion for the Iraqi's..but their history shows they have none for each other. I want a united Iraq, one who can take care of their citizens, raise the standard of living up, and defend themselves from outsiders. I just do not see how staying there for years&amp;years, spending trillions and burying more of our own will accomplish that. msjenny, that's funny because I did the exact same thing after the 2000 elections. I guess we're psychic or something. It's a no brainer, really. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53496 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53496 msjenny, that's funny because I did the exact same thing after the 2000 elections. I guess we're psychic or something. It's a no brainer, really. Mattloch, Johnson was honest enough to admit that he wasn't going to be able to win. Nixon, on the other hand, found honesty a tough road to hoe and ignored that path altogether. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53498 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53498 Mattloch, Johnson was honest enough to admit that he wasn't going to be able to win. Nixon, on the other hand, found honesty a tough road to hoe and ignored that path altogether. Just a little bit of self-effacing humor, dusty.&nbsp; It looks like I failed at that too :) http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53503 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53503 Just a little bit of self-effacing humor, dusty.&nbsp; It looks like I failed at that too :) BLT, with everyone getting all uptight lately, I just wanted to clarify..thanks m'dear, I figured as much but wasn't sure. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53504 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53504 BLT, with everyone getting all uptight lately, I just wanted to clarify..thanks m'dear, I figured as much but wasn't sure. <p>I'm not uptight, dusty.&nbsp; I'm not alert enough to be uptight.&nbsp; I thought I'd just throw out a little humor to lighten up a very grave subject matter (no pun intended).&nbsp; That's about all the humor I can muster up this early in the week.&nbsp; I know I'm not dumb.&nbsp; Maybe a bit developmentally delayed, but certainly not dumb :)</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53507 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53507 <p>I'm not uptight, dusty.&nbsp; I'm not alert enough to be uptight.&nbsp; I thought I'd just throw out a little humor to lighten up a very grave subject matter (no pun intended).&nbsp; That's about all the humor I can muster up this early in the week.&nbsp; I know I'm not dumb.&nbsp; Maybe a bit developmentally delayed, but certainly not dumb :)</p> aw BLT, you are the peacemaker in many respects. A little humor goes a long way usually. Thanks :) http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53508 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53508 aw BLT, you are the peacemaker in many respects. A little humor goes a long way usually. Thanks :) I'm glad &quot;a little humor goes a long way&quot; because all I've got to give is &quot;a little.&quot; And I may be a peacemaker, dusty, but it's out of necessity.&nbsp; If I become too confrontational with a&nbsp;peacenik,&nbsp;this &quot;peacemaker,&quot; &nbsp;may be in need of&nbsp;a pacemaker :) http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53513 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53513 I'm glad &quot;a little humor goes a long way&quot; because all I've got to give is &quot;a little.&quot; And I may be a peacemaker, dusty, but it's out of necessity.&nbsp; If I become too confrontational with a&nbsp;peacenik,&nbsp;this &quot;peacemaker,&quot; &nbsp;may be in need of&nbsp;a pacemaker :) LOL..come now..I would never hurt ya, it was an attempt to lighten the discussion. :P http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53515 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53515 LOL..come now..I would never hurt ya, it was an attempt to lighten the discussion. :P I think he was talking about me dusty.&nbsp;&nbsp; ; ) http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53516 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53516 I think he was talking about me dusty.&nbsp;&nbsp; ; ) Actually I was talking to myself.&nbsp; I must have forgotten to take my meds :) http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53517 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53517 Actually I was talking to myself.&nbsp; I must have forgotten to take my meds :) Pete, I did tell him I was going to hit him &quot;upside the head&quot; last week. :P http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53521 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53521 Pete, I did tell him I was going to hit him &quot;upside the head&quot; last week. :P And I&nbsp;learned the hard way that&nbsp;I can always count on&nbsp;dusty to tell the truth. LOL http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53522 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53522 And I&nbsp;learned the hard way that&nbsp;I can always count on&nbsp;dusty to tell the truth. LOL Or posture and appear a bada** BLT..I do both well :) :P http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53525 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53525 Or posture and appear a bada** BLT..I do both well :) :P <p>&quot;Or posture and appear a bada**&quot;</p> <p>I've noticed :&amp;)&nbsp; Hey, I think you may have just stumbled onto a new policy concerning Iraq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53526 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53526 <p>&quot;Or posture and appear a bada**&quot;</p> <p>I've noticed :&amp;)&nbsp; Hey, I think you may have just stumbled onto a new policy concerning Iraq!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p> <p>I guess we've picked a side in the civil war:</p> <p><a href="http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47380/">http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47380/</a></p> <p>(That's OK, the Saudis said they'd come in on the other side...)</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53528 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53528 <p>I guess we've picked a side in the civil war:</p> <p><a href="http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47380/">http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47380/</a></p> <p>(That's OK, the Saudis said they'd come in on the other side...)</p> I posted that Channel 4 video on my personal blog last week random..its pathetic.<br /> <br /> BLT..a new plan? I thought we already tried that one :P http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53533 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53533 I posted that Channel 4 video on my personal blog last week random..its pathetic.<br /> <br /> BLT..a new plan? I thought we already tried that one :P Sorry I missed it, Dusty.&nbsp; Thought it was new. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53536 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53536 Sorry I missed it, Dusty.&nbsp; Thought it was new. <p>Yes, we may have tried it once or twice, but you know what they say about the third time being the charm :U</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53537 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53537 <p>Yes, we may have tried it once or twice, but you know what they say about the third time being the charm :U</p> I didn't think you read my personal blog random..just the stuff I print here. It IS new for b.com http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53538 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53538 I didn't think you read my personal blog random..just the stuff I print here. It IS new for b.com Ah.  You're right.  Went there once to check it out but generally hang here (and Dkos and Atrios, et al.) http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53543 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53543 Ah.  You're right.  Went there once to check it out but generally hang here (and Dkos and Atrios, et al.) Sorry BLT..third time isnt a charm for me. Not with men and not with wars. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53548 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53548 Sorry BLT..third time isnt a charm for me. Not with men and not with wars. <p>More like &quot;three on a match.&quot;&nbsp; Bad juju in a war.</p> <p>.</p> <p>Especially when the rationale given for the third trial is &quot;because I said so.&quot;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53549 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53549 <p>More like &quot;three on a match.&quot;&nbsp; Bad juju in a war.</p> <p>.</p> <p>Especially when the rationale given for the third trial is &quot;because I said so.&quot;</p> I know all about the &quot;3 on a match&quot;..my dad a navy lifer explained it to me when I was young Random. I agree with your second sentence as well. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53551 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53551 I know all about the &quot;3 on a match&quot;..my dad a navy lifer explained it to me when I was young Random. I agree with your second sentence as well. <p>BLT:&nbsp; I agree with you the civil war in Iraq will continue, and probably escalate if we pull out.&nbsp; I also believe it will continue and escalate if we don't pull our troops out. </p> <p>So that leaves the question:&nbsp; Do we want our troops dying over there for their civil war or not?</p> <p>Did we learn nothing from Vietnam?&nbsp;&nbsp; If you don't believe the secretary of defense during the vietnam war regrets the decisions he and the administration made trying to intervene in their civil war, please read his book&nbsp;&nbsp;and see for yourself.&nbsp; <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Retrospect-Tragedy-Lessons-Vietnam/dp/0679767495/sr=8-1/qid=1170113557/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0347869-3663050?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books">http://www.amazon.com/Retrospect-Tragedy-Lessons-Vietnam/dp/0679767495/sr=8-1/qid=1170113557/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0347869-3663050?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books</a>&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53554 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53554 <p>BLT:&nbsp; I agree with you the civil war in Iraq will continue, and probably escalate if we pull out.&nbsp; I also believe it will continue and escalate if we don't pull our troops out. </p> <p>So that leaves the question:&nbsp; Do we want our troops dying over there for their civil war or not?</p> <p>Did we learn nothing from Vietnam?&nbsp;&nbsp; If you don't believe the secretary of defense during the vietnam war regrets the decisions he and the administration made trying to intervene in their civil war, please read his book&nbsp;&nbsp;and see for yourself.&nbsp; <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Retrospect-Tragedy-Lessons-Vietnam/dp/0679767495/sr=8-1/qid=1170113557/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0347869-3663050?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books">http://www.amazon.com/Retrospect-Tragedy-Lessons-Vietnam/dp/0679767495/sr=8-1/qid=1170113557/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-0347869-3663050?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books</a>&nbsp; </p> Ah yes Goat, Mac the knife..did you see &quot;Fog of War&quot;? it was very good. He admits the mistakes and the lies in thta documentary. Cheney and Rummy called him a pussy for admitting anything with regards to Vietnam. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53557 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53557 Ah yes Goat, Mac the knife..did you see &quot;Fog of War&quot;? it was very good. He admits the mistakes and the lies in thta documentary. Cheney and Rummy called him a pussy for admitting anything with regards to Vietnam. Yes I did and I also read his book on the same subject.&nbsp; I think we could save ourselves alot of grief in Iraq by remembering what we learned in Vietnam. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53563 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53563 Yes I did and I also read his book on the same subject.&nbsp; I think we could save ourselves alot of grief in Iraq by remembering what we learned in Vietnam. They remember Vietnam Goat..they surely do. But the problem is that BushCo refuses to let the public dictate what they do. I read where Rummy said that McNamara was a pussy for admitting things about Vietnam. Those guys admit nothing they don't have to...and if your Cheney..you still won't admit it. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53569 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53569 They remember Vietnam Goat..they surely do. But the problem is that BushCo refuses to let the public dictate what they do. I read where Rummy said that McNamara was a pussy for admitting things about Vietnam. Those guys admit nothing they don't have to...and if your Cheney..you still won't admit it. You could be right, all of you.&nbsp; Then again, you all could be wrong.&nbsp; In this war, as in any war, there are always unanticipated extraneous factors, both good and bad, that come into the picture, and these unanticipated extraneous factors, and not whether or not we surge or withdraw,&nbsp;could ultimately determine the outcome of this war.&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53579 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53579 You could be right, all of you.&nbsp; Then again, you all could be wrong.&nbsp; In this war, as in any war, there are always unanticipated extraneous factors, both good and bad, that come into the picture, and these unanticipated extraneous factors, and not whether or not we surge or withdraw,&nbsp;could ultimately determine the outcome of this war.&nbsp; BLT..no one has the answers..not even Bush and his boyz. Your totally correct in your observation that extraneous factors could determine the outcome of the war in Iraq, I agree with you. Al-Sadr is supposed to be coming around. Thats a good thing. If Bush ends this war before he gets out of office, I will be surprized and glad. I just dont' think spending additional years over there, policing the Iraqi's civil war is in our best interests.. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53581 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53581 BLT..no one has the answers..not even Bush and his boyz. Your totally correct in your observation that extraneous factors could determine the outcome of the war in Iraq, I agree with you. Al-Sadr is supposed to be coming around. Thats a good thing. If Bush ends this war before he gets out of office, I will be surprized and glad. I just dont' think spending additional years over there, policing the Iraqi's civil war is in our best interests.. There was some guy in New York in the 1990s who cheated on his girlfriend, so she broke up with him. He was picketing outside of her apartment with a sign that said &quot;I'm Sorry,&quot; and he vowed to continue until she took him back. After about a month, and having become a total laughingstock, our philandering picketer gave it up. &nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53582 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53582 There was some guy in New York in the 1990s who cheated on his girlfriend, so she broke up with him. He was picketing outside of her apartment with a sign that said &quot;I'm Sorry,&quot; and he vowed to continue until she took him back. After about a month, and having become a total laughingstock, our philandering picketer gave it up. &nbsp; Well, Michael, folks have been protesting the war since it's inception. I personally did not get involved until it was shown that the reasons the President cited for going into Iraq were false. The protest groups are getting bigger, not smaller btw. If you read the Salon article I link, they talk to many first timers who state the reason they are now protesting is the Presidents escalation. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53583 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53583 Well, Michael, folks have been protesting the war since it's inception. I personally did not get involved until it was shown that the reasons the President cited for going into Iraq were false. The protest groups are getting bigger, not smaller btw. If you read the Salon article I link, they talk to many first timers who state the reason they are now protesting is the Presidents escalation. I am worried that this &quot;surge&quot; is designed for Iran. I am also concerned that the will of the people means nothing to Bush and Cheney. There are not enough votes in either branch of Congress to stop the White House from acting and escalating this war. Given the poll numbers that show nearly 60% of Americans just want the Bush Presidency over with, and that only 30% favor his handling of the war effort, why is he allowed to continue to bully his way to national catastrophe?<br /> <br /> The Administration mouthpieces on radio and the Faux network don't even bother with the foreign policy news any longer. They only attack Hillary and liberal viewpoints from the fringes. They use edited and out of context snippets from anti-war demonstrations in the cheapest fashion to frame liberal viewpoints as hysteria, all the while endorsing the escalation of armed conflict in a region ready to fully explode. The time has come to get rid of this Administration. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53623 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53623 I am worried that this &quot;surge&quot; is designed for Iran. I am also concerned that the will of the people means nothing to Bush and Cheney. There are not enough votes in either branch of Congress to stop the White House from acting and escalating this war. Given the poll numbers that show nearly 60% of Americans just want the Bush Presidency over with, and that only 30% favor his handling of the war effort, why is he allowed to continue to bully his way to national catastrophe?<br /> <br /> The Administration mouthpieces on radio and the Faux network don't even bother with the foreign policy news any longer. They only attack Hillary and liberal viewpoints from the fringes. They use edited and out of context snippets from anti-war demonstrations in the cheapest fashion to frame liberal viewpoints as hysteria, all the while endorsing the escalation of armed conflict in a region ready to fully explode. The time has come to get rid of this Administration. Adam...roughly 65% of America thinks the war should end before the Bush administration does. That is a majority last time I checked. What the rightwing nutjobs like Rushie fail to address is the 65% of the population that want an end to this war asap. The schills for this administration have nothing to attack but the people that don't agree with our current administration. They do not back up their POV that the escalation is a good thing...at least not from the snippets I see of Fox news, like you say..they just attack the left..and paint it as the lunatic fringe. When I see 70 year old men and women marching..and they say they have never done it before..I know Bush has hit a nerve with the majority of Americans.. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53626 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53626 Adam...roughly 65% of America thinks the war should end before the Bush administration does. That is a majority last time I checked. What the rightwing nutjobs like Rushie fail to address is the 65% of the population that want an end to this war asap. The schills for this administration have nothing to attack but the people that don't agree with our current administration. They do not back up their POV that the escalation is a good thing...at least not from the snippets I see of Fox news, like you say..they just attack the left..and paint it as the lunatic fringe. When I see 70 year old men and women marching..and they say they have never done it before..I know Bush has hit a nerve with the majority of Americans.. Nobody seems to mention Colmes of Hannity and Colmes when they attack Fox.&nbsp; Don't forget that Colmes is half of Hannity and Colmes and is 100% liberal in every respect.&nbsp;&nbsp; He never appears afraid or intimidated to speak his mind and nobody at the network seems the least bit interested in shutting him up.&nbsp; And what about all of the liberal guests that are invited on the show?&nbsp; Yet Fox is supposed to be so biased. &nbsp; I'm sure Colmes would not be pleased about all the bad things you folks are saying about Fox, the network that gives him a voice, a big paycheck and a big platform on which to express his liberal views.&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53667 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53667 Nobody seems to mention Colmes of Hannity and Colmes when they attack Fox.&nbsp; Don't forget that Colmes is half of Hannity and Colmes and is 100% liberal in every respect.&nbsp;&nbsp; He never appears afraid or intimidated to speak his mind and nobody at the network seems the least bit interested in shutting him up.&nbsp; And what about all of the liberal guests that are invited on the show?&nbsp; Yet Fox is supposed to be so biased. &nbsp; I'm sure Colmes would not be pleased about all the bad things you folks are saying about Fox, the network that gives him a voice, a big paycheck and a big platform on which to express his liberal views.&nbsp; <p><font size="2">Seriously, Doc?&nbsp; Colmes?&nbsp; All the liberals in this country and they pick Colmes?&nbsp; Why do you think that is?&nbsp; Stunning good looks?&nbsp; Forceful manly aura?&nbsp; Well researched points of view?</font></p> <p><font size="2">If Colmes was a liberal in every respect, he wouldn't be on Fox.</font></p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53669 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53669 <p><font size="2">Seriously, Doc?&nbsp; Colmes?&nbsp; All the liberals in this country and they pick Colmes?&nbsp; Why do you think that is?&nbsp; Stunning good looks?&nbsp; Forceful manly aura?&nbsp; Well researched points of view?</font></p> <p><font size="2">If Colmes was a liberal in every respect, he wouldn't be on Fox.</font></p> <p>Colmes is about one-tenth of Hannity &amp; <font size="1">colmes.&nbsp; </font><font size="2">If he were able to argue directly with Sean &quot;I'm *REALLY* Not Gay&quot; Hannity it might be different--or if Hannity didn't just outshout the guests...</font></p> <p><font size="2">.</font></p> <p><font size="2">There's one fairly liberal voice in cable news, and Keith be his name.&nbsp; In a sane America, he'd be middle-of-the-road.&nbsp; </font></p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53703 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53703 <p>Colmes is about one-tenth of Hannity &amp; <font size="1">colmes.&nbsp; </font><font size="2">If he were able to argue directly with Sean &quot;I'm *REALLY* Not Gay&quot; Hannity it might be different--or if Hannity didn't just outshout the guests...</font></p> <p><font size="2">.</font></p> <p><font size="2">There's one fairly liberal voice in cable news, and Keith be his name.&nbsp; In a sane America, he'd be middle-of-the-road.&nbsp; </font></p> Too bad Colmes doesn't see himself that way, <strong>BLT</strong>. He's called himself a &quot;moderate&quot;, and a pretty weak one at that. If he truly had a set, he would have gone to Al Frankin for a two-week boot camp of bs-calling and fact-checking. But he knows who signs his checks, and plays right along with the charade.... http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53756 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53756 Too bad Colmes doesn't see himself that way, <strong>BLT</strong>. He's called himself a &quot;moderate&quot;, and a pretty weak one at that. If he truly had a set, he would have gone to Al Frankin for a two-week boot camp of bs-calling and fact-checking. But he knows who signs his checks, and plays right along with the charade.... Colmes is the type of Democrat all of you should be truly proud of.&nbsp; He is a gentlemen and a moderate liberal who is a boon to your side because he is civil, intelligent, and thoughtful.&nbsp; Unless you make an exception in&nbsp;your disparaging comments about&nbsp;Fox, you are speaking disparaginly of Colmes.&nbsp; If I were a Democrat, I would be proud of him and when discussing Fox I would not carelessly throw him in with all of the &quot;wolves.&quot;&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53767 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53767 Colmes is the type of Democrat all of you should be truly proud of.&nbsp; He is a gentlemen and a moderate liberal who is a boon to your side because he is civil, intelligent, and thoughtful.&nbsp; Unless you make an exception in&nbsp;your disparaging comments about&nbsp;Fox, you are speaking disparaginly of Colmes.&nbsp; If I were a Democrat, I would be proud of him and when discussing Fox I would not carelessly throw him in with all of the &quot;wolves.&quot;&nbsp; <p>Besides, he &quot;knows his place&quot; and isn't all &quot;uppity,&quot; and presumably also has natural rhythm and sings dem spirituals while pickin' dat cotton.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53769 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53769 <p>Besides, he &quot;knows his place&quot; and isn't all &quot;uppity,&quot; and presumably also has natural rhythm and sings dem spirituals while pickin' dat cotton.</p> <p>&nbsp;</p> Fox is running a whole campaign against MSNBC, although this is off topic, I will still attempt to address it. Colmes from what I have gathered from his show is a moderate. You perhaps might call him a liberal BLT, but i do not. If Fox feels that by running commercials that call MSNBC the leftwing channel will build their base, they are stretching it pretty thin. Perhaps they just want to rile up their base..I have no idea what they are trying to accomplish. But I do know that MSNBC is moving up in the ratings war..their numbers have increased tremendously over the last year as witnessed by this article over on <a href="http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/msnbc/default.asp"><strong>TVNewser</strong></a> :<br /> <br /> <h2 id="a050978">MSNBC's Rising Ratings Are "Almost Incredible," Schonfeld Says</h2> <div class="blogpost"><img vspace="5" hspace="5" align="right" src="http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/original/msnbclogo2.jpg" alt="" />"The big news of 2006 is the ascent of MSNBC; it’s now a real competitor in the 24-hour news race," <a href="http://meandted.com/bits.htm"><strong>Reese Schonfeld</strong> writes</a> in his recap of cable news ratings. "Last year MSNBC averaged 385,000 viewers in primetime. But averaging masks true gains because MSNBC was adding viewers throughout the year and finished with far more viewers than its yearly average.<br /> <img height="7" src="http://www.mediabistro.com/images/spacer.gif" alt="" /><br /> The week of January 1st MSNBC had 550,000 viewers almost 200,000 more than they had averaged last year. They’ve almost doubled their viewers since the beginning of ’06 thanks to Keith Olbermann and lately Joe Scarborough. Those numbers are almost incredible and I can’t think of any other cable network that’s had that big an upswing in that amount of time." <a href="http://meandted.com/bits.htm">Here's the rest</a> (via <a href="http://insidecable.blogsome.com/">ICN</a>)...<br /> <img height="7" src="http://www.mediabistro.com/images/spacer.gif" alt="" /><br /> > <strong>Related:</strong> In the first week of 2007, MSNBC beat CNN in the 25-54 demo in primetime...</div> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53772 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53772 Fox is running a whole campaign against MSNBC, although this is off topic, I will still attempt to address it. Colmes from what I have gathered from his show is a moderate. You perhaps might call him a liberal BLT, but i do not. If Fox feels that by running commercials that call MSNBC the leftwing channel will build their base, they are stretching it pretty thin. Perhaps they just want to rile up their base..I have no idea what they are trying to accomplish. But I do know that MSNBC is moving up in the ratings war..their numbers have increased tremendously over the last year as witnessed by this article over on <a href="http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/msnbc/default.asp"><strong>TVNewser</strong></a> :<br /> <br /> <h2 id="a050978">MSNBC's Rising Ratings Are "Almost Incredible," Schonfeld Says</h2> <div class="blogpost"><img vspace="5" hspace="5" align="right" src="http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/original/msnbclogo2.jpg" alt="" />"The big news of 2006 is the ascent of MSNBC; it’s now a real competitor in the 24-hour news race," <a href="http://meandted.com/bits.htm"><strong>Reese Schonfeld</strong> writes</a> in his recap of cable news ratings. "Last year MSNBC averaged 385,000 viewers in primetime. But averaging masks true gains because MSNBC was adding viewers throughout the year and finished with far more viewers than its yearly average.<br /> <img height="7" src="http://www.mediabistro.com/images/spacer.gif" alt="" /><br /> The week of January 1st MSNBC had 550,000 viewers almost 200,000 more than they had averaged last year. They’ve almost doubled their viewers since the beginning of ’06 thanks to Keith Olbermann and lately Joe Scarborough. Those numbers are almost incredible and I can’t think of any other cable network that’s had that big an upswing in that amount of time." <a href="http://meandted.com/bits.htm">Here's the rest</a> (via <a href="http://insidecable.blogsome.com/">ICN</a>)...<br /> <img height="7" src="http://www.mediabistro.com/images/spacer.gif" alt="" /><br /> > <strong>Related:</strong> In the first week of 2007, MSNBC beat CNN in the 25-54 demo in primetime...</div> Are you suggesting that the only way a Democrat can be thoughtful, civil&nbsp;and respectful is that he must be capitulating to the overt and/or covert demands of the powers that be?&nbsp; If you ask me, although he's a man with a gentle spirit, he's been unequivocal in the expression of his thoughts on key issues and he's been very passionate in his defense of guests who represent a liberal or Democrat position.&nbsp; If Fox were really intent on giving Democrats a raw deal, they would hire somebody rude, aggressive,&nbsp;arrogant and narrow-minded like Sean Hannity.&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53774 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53774 Are you suggesting that the only way a Democrat can be thoughtful, civil&nbsp;and respectful is that he must be capitulating to the overt and/or covert demands of the powers that be?&nbsp; If you ask me, although he's a man with a gentle spirit, he's been unequivocal in the expression of his thoughts on key issues and he's been very passionate in his defense of guests who represent a liberal or Democrat position.&nbsp; If Fox were really intent on giving Democrats a raw deal, they would hire somebody rude, aggressive,&nbsp;arrogant and narrow-minded like Sean Hannity.&nbsp; <p>Fox (and O'Reilly) have to do *SOMETHING.*&nbsp; Their typical viewer is like 70 years old... :)</p> <p>.</p> <p>Dusty, you saw Olbermann's take on this, right?</p> <p><a href="http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47123/">http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47123/</a></p> <p>&nbsp;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53775 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53775 <p>Fox (and O'Reilly) have to do *SOMETHING.*&nbsp; Their typical viewer is like 70 years old... :)</p> <p>.</p> <p>Dusty, you saw Olbermann's take on this, right?</p> <p><a href="http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47123/">http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/47123/</a></p> <p>&nbsp;</p> <p>&quot;Their typical viewer is like 70 years old... :)&quot;&nbsp; I know you weren't intending on being ageist in that remark.&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53777 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53777 <p>&quot;Their typical viewer is like 70 years old... :)&quot;&nbsp; I know you weren't intending on being ageist in that remark.&nbsp; </p> Democrats come in all shapes, sizes and belief systems BLT. Jim Webb is far from liberal and there is an entire group of elected members of Congress called the &quot;Blue Dogs&quot; who are as far from liberal as you can get. I get tired of the rhetoric that anything Democrat is liberal. Its simply not the case.I refuse to watch Fox News because their attempt to appear impartial stinks imho. I do not like Chris Matthews yet I watch his show because he does present liberal, moderate and conservative POV during his show on specific issues. So does Joe Scarborough. Joe is a confirmed conservative..and he admits it readily. Matthews trys to pass himself off as a moderate but he isn't..not if he is coming out for John FlipFlop McCain..which Matthews constantly touts as a great man and making a great president. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53778 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53778 Democrats come in all shapes, sizes and belief systems BLT. Jim Webb is far from liberal and there is an entire group of elected members of Congress called the &quot;Blue Dogs&quot; who are as far from liberal as you can get. I get tired of the rhetoric that anything Democrat is liberal. Its simply not the case.I refuse to watch Fox News because their attempt to appear impartial stinks imho. I do not like Chris Matthews yet I watch his show because he does present liberal, moderate and conservative POV during his show on specific issues. So does Joe Scarborough. Joe is a confirmed conservative..and he admits it readily. Matthews trys to pass himself off as a moderate but he isn't..not if he is coming out for John FlipFlop McCain..which Matthews constantly touts as a great man and making a great president. <p>Of course not.&nbsp; I know a 70-plus-year-old bisexual pot-smoking great-grandmother.&nbsp; I'm sure she thinks O'Reilly is the bee's knees.&nbsp; </p> <p>.</p> <p>But O'Reilly's target audience is *NOT* the one that advertisers are looking for.&nbsp; And if McCain's counting on their votes in '08 he better have them sign the absentee ballots *NOW.*&nbsp; Many of them, in the immortal words of George Burns, &quot;don't buy green bananas.&quot;</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53780 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53780 <p>Of course not.&nbsp; I know a 70-plus-year-old bisexual pot-smoking great-grandmother.&nbsp; I'm sure she thinks O'Reilly is the bee's knees.&nbsp; </p> <p>.</p> <p>But O'Reilly's target audience is *NOT* the one that advertisers are looking for.&nbsp; And if McCain's counting on their votes in '08 he better have them sign the absentee ballots *NOW.*&nbsp; Many of them, in the immortal words of George Burns, &quot;don't buy green bananas.&quot;</p> Of course random..I never miss KO, and I tape his show nightly in case I am busy or out of the house. He is my voice of sanity and humor. He can poke fun at the nutjobs without being mean or cruel. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53781 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53781 Of course random..I never miss KO, and I tape his show nightly in case I am busy or out of the house. He is my voice of sanity and humor. He can poke fun at the nutjobs without being mean or cruel. BLT, I'm not saying that a loud, opinionated liberal&nbsp;Democrat is the only kind there could be.&nbsp; I'm just saying it might be nice for a change for *ONE* of them to get a cable news show.&nbsp; I think <font size="1">colmes</font> was deliberately chosen for that spot so he'd provide a nice sidekick for Hannity, and to point to him as a &quot;liberal&quot; or as in any way providing &quot;balance&quot; is laughable.&nbsp; Besides, he's specifically forbidden to take on Hannity one-on-one. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53783 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53783 BLT, I'm not saying that a loud, opinionated liberal&nbsp;Democrat is the only kind there could be.&nbsp; I'm just saying it might be nice for a change for *ONE* of them to get a cable news show.&nbsp; I think <font size="1">colmes</font> was deliberately chosen for that spot so he'd provide a nice sidekick for Hannity, and to point to him as a &quot;liberal&quot; or as in any way providing &quot;balance&quot; is laughable.&nbsp; Besides, he's specifically forbidden to take on Hannity one-on-one. <p>Well, when you characterize a network without identifying obvious exceptions to that characterization, you do a grave injustice to folks like Colmes.&nbsp; Hannity, though charming in certain respects,&nbsp;reinforces the negative stereotype that many of you rely on when characterizing conservatives.&nbsp;&nbsp; If Colmes was meant to be a weak sidekick, then Fox is kicking themselves with his presence.&nbsp; </p> <p>Colmes is clearly a Democrat and he doesn't provide any fodder whatsoever&nbsp;for Republicans who want to stereotype Democrats.&nbsp; So Democrats should celebrate his presence on Fox and should be proud of his contribution.&nbsp; It would behoove Democrats to identify him as a noteworthy exception when tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater.&nbsp; He supports most of you and passionately advocates for your positions, but you won't support him, and won't even give him a footnote in your comments about Fox.&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53789 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53789 <p>Well, when you characterize a network without identifying obvious exceptions to that characterization, you do a grave injustice to folks like Colmes.&nbsp; Hannity, though charming in certain respects,&nbsp;reinforces the negative stereotype that many of you rely on when characterizing conservatives.&nbsp;&nbsp; If Colmes was meant to be a weak sidekick, then Fox is kicking themselves with his presence.&nbsp; </p> <p>Colmes is clearly a Democrat and he doesn't provide any fodder whatsoever&nbsp;for Republicans who want to stereotype Democrats.&nbsp; So Democrats should celebrate his presence on Fox and should be proud of his contribution.&nbsp; It would behoove Democrats to identify him as a noteworthy exception when tempted to throw the baby out with the bathwater.&nbsp; He supports most of you and passionately advocates for your positions, but you won't support him, and won't even give him a footnote in your comments about Fox.&nbsp; </p> But BLT..I wouldn't watch them just to bang the drum for Colmes. The rest of their &quot;news division&quot; is so narrow-minded its pathetic. Take the whole attack on Barack Obama..using information that has ALREADY been debunked...thats outrageous in my mind..to smear a man with crap that has been shown to be total bs..yet they keep on talking about it like it it true. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53794 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53794 But BLT..I wouldn't watch them just to bang the drum for Colmes. The rest of their &quot;news division&quot; is so narrow-minded its pathetic. Take the whole attack on Barack Obama..using information that has ALREADY been debunked...thats outrageous in my mind..to smear a man with crap that has been shown to be total bs..yet they keep on talking about it like it it true. <p>Every station has its own bias, dusty, some are just more subtle about it.&nbsp; No news is produced in a political vacuum.&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53797 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53797 <p>Every station has its own bias, dusty, some are just more subtle about it.&nbsp; No news is produced in a political vacuum.&nbsp; </p> Colmes is a DINO (democrat in name only) and he was specifically chosen for his lack of charisma and debating skills. He may consider himself a democrat, but he ain't no liberal. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53798 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53798 Colmes is a DINO (democrat in name only) and he was specifically chosen for his lack of charisma and debating skills. He may consider himself a democrat, but he ain't no liberal. There are other Democrats who can do that.&nbsp; I'm not partisan as much as I am for a certain set of beliefs.&nbsp; The Democrats come closer to that so that's where I find myself.&nbsp; But I'm not a party loyalist.&nbsp; Democrats are the big tent right now, representing everyone from Lieberman to Feingold.&nbsp; I don't feel bound to support them all. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53800 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53800 There are other Democrats who can do that.&nbsp; I'm not partisan as much as I am for a certain set of beliefs.&nbsp; The Democrats come closer to that so that's where I find myself.&nbsp; But I'm not a party loyalist.&nbsp; Democrats are the big tent right now, representing everyone from Lieberman to Feingold.&nbsp; I don't feel bound to support them all. <p>That's the sort of independent spirit that this country needs more of, Tom.&nbsp; Too many people simply tow a party line or conform to either liberal or conservative groupthink.&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53805 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53805 <p>That's the sort of independent spirit that this country needs more of, Tom.&nbsp; Too many people simply tow a party line or conform to either liberal or conservative groupthink.&nbsp; </p> A vaccuum is what was needed forFOX regarding the smear job on Obama BLT. To continue to hype the story of Obama being raised Muslim AND going to a radical Muslim school as a child, it was only FOX that kept hyping that story..actually that lie. They are not a news organization..they are a propaganda organization. Bias? Bias is different than propaganda..and Fox is not a news station..period. I couldn't believe they still keep hyping that story even though it has been proved patently false. Its disgraceful BLT. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53806 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53806 A vaccuum is what was needed forFOX regarding the smear job on Obama BLT. To continue to hype the story of Obama being raised Muslim AND going to a radical Muslim school as a child, it was only FOX that kept hyping that story..actually that lie. They are not a news organization..they are a propaganda organization. Bias? Bias is different than propaganda..and Fox is not a news station..period. I couldn't believe they still keep hyping that story even though it has been proved patently false. Its disgraceful BLT. <p>I heard that story about Obama being presented as political fodder on Fox yesterday.&nbsp; Rather than validating it, Dick Morris, a frequent guest on Hannity and Colmes, distanced himself from it, and rendered it an illegitimate smear tactic drummed up by those who want Hillary to be the next president.&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53810 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53810 <p>I heard that story about Obama being presented as political fodder on Fox yesterday.&nbsp; Rather than validating it, Dick Morris, a frequent guest on Hannity and Colmes, distanced himself from it, and rendered it an illegitimate smear tactic drummed up by those who want Hillary to be the next president.&nbsp; </p> No one created that story but the rightwing nutjobs BLT..Hillary had nothing to do with it..and once again..its the rightwing nutjobs trying to hit two Democrats with one stone. Pathetic. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53811 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53811 No one created that story but the rightwing nutjobs BLT..Hillary had nothing to do with it..and once again..its the rightwing nutjobs trying to hit two Democrats with one stone. Pathetic. <p>Who knows, dusty?&nbsp;&nbsp;It's hard to prove, but I thought you were suggesting that Fox was legitimizing and perpetuating that story.&nbsp; Quite the contrary.&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53814 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53814 <p>Who knows, dusty?&nbsp;&nbsp;It's hard to prove, but I thought you were suggesting that Fox was legitimizing and perpetuating that story.&nbsp; Quite the contrary.&nbsp; </p> The only place this lie appeared was Insight Magazine BLT. The nutjob Moon runs that pathetic excuse for a magazine. To even run that tripe shows how low the rightwing nutjobs will go to smear ANY Democrat. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53815 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53815 The only place this lie appeared was Insight Magazine BLT. The nutjob Moon runs that pathetic excuse for a magazine. To even run that tripe shows how low the rightwing nutjobs will go to smear ANY Democrat. Dusty, I saw that they were trying to pull this trick of saying that Clinton was lying about Obama.&nbsp; Of course, it was Bush's camp in the 2000 primaries that spread the rumor that McCain had had an affair with a black woman and his mixed race kids (who are actually adopted) were a result of that affair.&nbsp; Projection, projection, projection.&nbsp; Some of these people are just horrible. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53817 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53817 Dusty, I saw that they were trying to pull this trick of saying that Clinton was lying about Obama.&nbsp; Of course, it was Bush's camp in the 2000 primaries that spread the rumor that McCain had had an affair with a black woman and his mixed race kids (who are actually adopted) were a result of that affair.&nbsp; Projection, projection, projection.&nbsp; Some of these people are just horrible. Excuse me but they DID perpetuate that story for over a week. John Gibson keep hitting it and hitting it. They did attempt to legitimize it for over a week until CNN came out and said they checked it and it was bogus. Only then did FOX say..well...its a lie but Hillary's people put it out there..again..that was part of the original Insight story..so they still get airplay with the lie but attempt to place it on Hillary, so they can discredit her too. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53818 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53818 Excuse me but they DID perpetuate that story for over a week. John Gibson keep hitting it and hitting it. They did attempt to legitimize it for over a week until CNN came out and said they checked it and it was bogus. Only then did FOX say..well...its a lie but Hillary's people put it out there..again..that was part of the original Insight story..so they still get airplay with the lie but attempt to place it on Hillary, so they can discredit her too. Sorry <strong>BLT</strong>, Dusty's right. Insight made up the story, without so much a fact-checking (because it would have exposed it for the lie it was). Not only did Faux run with it (without doing any fact-checking of their own), they tried to double-down by blaming it on Hillary. Faux knew it was a lie, but they <em>continued</em> to push it after they found out and tried to blame it on someone else. If you need any more details, I'm sure we can dig them up. Even Faux is (now) admitting they did it. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53820 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53820 Sorry <strong>BLT</strong>, Dusty's right. Insight made up the story, without so much a fact-checking (because it would have exposed it for the lie it was). Not only did Faux run with it (without doing any fact-checking of their own), they tried to double-down by blaming it on Hillary. Faux knew it was a lie, but they <em>continued</em> to push it after they found out and tried to blame it on someone else. If you need any more details, I'm sure we can dig them up. Even Faux is (now) admitting they did it. I read the original Insight article when it first came out..over two weeks ago I think. There was no documentation what so ever..and it stated that &quot;someone&quot; from Hillary's camp put it out there. When a news organization continues to run with a story they can not back up..its now propaganda. No other news organization printed it or talked about it. CNN finally looked into it, because people kept asking their rightwing talking head about it. WHen they discounted everything in the article, Fox still kept playing it up, only now..its the lie Hillary's camp told..disgraceful is the word that comes to mind. To still even talk about it is outrageous for a news organization..but then as I said...FOX isn't news its a proganda channel for the right. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53821 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53821 I read the original Insight article when it first came out..over two weeks ago I think. There was no documentation what so ever..and it stated that &quot;someone&quot; from Hillary's camp put it out there. When a news organization continues to run with a story they can not back up..its now propaganda. No other news organization printed it or talked about it. CNN finally looked into it, because people kept asking their rightwing talking head about it. WHen they discounted everything in the article, Fox still kept playing it up, only now..its the lie Hillary's camp told..disgraceful is the word that comes to mind. To still even talk about it is outrageous for a news organization..but then as I said...FOX isn't news its a proganda channel for the right. We could go back and forth and give examples of one side smearing the other.&nbsp; But you folks seem to have this supercilious, hypocritical attitude that only the other side is capable of lies, baseless rumor and blatant bias.&nbsp; Characterological badness and all of the horrible things that prevail in politics are not party-specific.&nbsp; They cross all political boundaries.&nbsp;&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53823 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53823 We could go back and forth and give examples of one side smearing the other.&nbsp; But you folks seem to have this supercilious, hypocritical attitude that only the other side is capable of lies, baseless rumor and blatant bias.&nbsp; Characterological badness and all of the horrible things that prevail in politics are not party-specific.&nbsp; They cross all political boundaries.&nbsp;&nbsp; I debunked it when it came up on another forum..its so damn easy to blow up.. the timelines they use in the article don't even match up. Fact-checking is something that should of been done by FOX and if I could disprove it..they sure as hell could of. But, it suited their agenda to just go with it..so its a propaganda channel..not a news channel. Refusing to fact check something of this magnitude is disgusting. To continue to talk about it and then blame someone else for it..even worse. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53824 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53824 I debunked it when it came up on another forum..its so damn easy to blow up.. the timelines they use in the article don't even match up. Fact-checking is something that should of been done by FOX and if I could disprove it..they sure as hell could of. But, it suited their agenda to just go with it..so its a propaganda channel..not a news channel. Refusing to fact check something of this magnitude is disgusting. To continue to talk about it and then blame someone else for it..even worse. Well BLT..I would appreciate you giving us some examples of MSNBC throwing propaganda out there as truth. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53825 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53825 Well BLT..I would appreciate you giving us some examples of MSNBC throwing propaganda out there as truth. There are plenty of examples to be found on any of the cable networks.&nbsp; Does the name Dan Rather ring a bell?&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53829 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53829 There are plenty of examples to be found on any of the cable networks.&nbsp; Does the name Dan Rather ring a bell?&nbsp; That wasn't a cable network. That was CBS. A cable network is described as a network you only get on cable. I asked you specifically for something that MSNBC has put out there BLT. Rather also quit when he found out he was promoting a lie. You can't tell me John Gibson is going to quit anytime soon. Rather apologized on air..Gibson..nope..still waiting. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53832 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53832 That wasn't a cable network. That was CBS. A cable network is described as a network you only get on cable. I asked you specifically for something that MSNBC has put out there BLT. Rather also quit when he found out he was promoting a lie. You can't tell me John Gibson is going to quit anytime soon. Rather apologized on air..Gibson..nope..still waiting. Hate to break it to you <strong>BLT</strong>, but that story was true. While the document was fake, the person who wrote the original (and Rather asked)&nbsp;substantiated the memo and the information it contained (she just didn't <em>see</em> the memo that Rather received, which is why he went with the story). There's also evidence that Bush political operatives purged his National Guard files just before he ran for office. I can give you the sources for this, if you need them. The names of people in the story are all very well known. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53840 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53840 Hate to break it to you <strong>BLT</strong>, but that story was true. While the document was fake, the person who wrote the original (and Rather asked)&nbsp;substantiated the memo and the information it contained (she just didn't <em>see</em> the memo that Rather received, which is why he went with the story). There's also evidence that Bush political operatives purged his National Guard files just before he ran for office. I can give you the sources for this, if you need them. The names of people in the story are all very well known. <p>Excuse me, dusty, I didn't know we could only play this by your rules.&nbsp; Anyway, I'm&nbsp;growing weary of the tit for tat game even before the ball gets rolling.&nbsp; You know as well as I do that this sort of back and forth dialogue goes nowhere.&nbsp;&nbsp; You see bias only where you want to see it.&nbsp; You see bias only on the side that disagrees with your position.&nbsp; You will probably win because you spend most of your time looking for dirt on Republicans, and I spend very little time looking for dirt on Democrats.&nbsp; In my opinion, that is not what we should be spending our time doing.&nbsp; We should be spending our time looking for points upon which we agree.&nbsp; We should spend our time building unity between parties not tearing the other party down.&nbsp; </p> <p>I'll take your order now, mattloch, did you want a serving of fries with your Sandy Berger?&nbsp; You see, now I'm getting caught up in the same ridiculous game you folks want me to get caught up in.&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53842 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53842 <p>Excuse me, dusty, I didn't know we could only play this by your rules.&nbsp; Anyway, I'm&nbsp;growing weary of the tit for tat game even before the ball gets rolling.&nbsp; You know as well as I do that this sort of back and forth dialogue goes nowhere.&nbsp;&nbsp; You see bias only where you want to see it.&nbsp; You see bias only on the side that disagrees with your position.&nbsp; You will probably win because you spend most of your time looking for dirt on Republicans, and I spend very little time looking for dirt on Democrats.&nbsp; In my opinion, that is not what we should be spending our time doing.&nbsp; We should be spending our time looking for points upon which we agree.&nbsp; We should spend our time building unity between parties not tearing the other party down.&nbsp; </p> <p>I'll take your order now, mattloch, did you want a serving of fries with your Sandy Berger?&nbsp; You see, now I'm getting caught up in the same ridiculous game you folks want me to get caught up in.&nbsp; </p> BLT..I asked you for a MSNBC propaganda example. You, in your own comment, called CBS a cable network. I am sure that was a mistake on your part. I also pointed out that Rather apologized and quit..Gibson, the biggest one touting the Obama story has yet to apologize or retract anything he said. I asked you for an example of MSNBC, you provided one but from CBS. How is that my rules? I asked for a legitimate example sir. Bias isn't what I am talking bout BLT..I am talking about lies and propaganda. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53843 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53843 BLT..I asked you for a MSNBC propaganda example. You, in your own comment, called CBS a cable network. I am sure that was a mistake on your part. I also pointed out that Rather apologized and quit..Gibson, the biggest one touting the Obama story has yet to apologize or retract anything he said. I asked you for an example of MSNBC, you provided one but from CBS. How is that my rules? I asked for a legitimate example sir. Bias isn't what I am talking bout BLT..I am talking about lies and propaganda. Foxnews is classic at putting out these kinds of rumors. All they have to say is might or allegedly and they can get away with it. Most people are so used to hearing those words they ignore them and figure &quot;if it's on the news, it must be true&quot;<br /> <br /> Dan Rather was framed.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6073449/site/newsweek/">Here's an msnbc article about the story Dan Rather didn't run that night in favor of the Bush Guard memo story.</a><br /> <br /> The relevance of this story and a certain former white house official on trial right now is pretty interesting. Creepy actually. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53846 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53846 Foxnews is classic at putting out these kinds of rumors. All they have to say is might or allegedly and they can get away with it. Most people are so used to hearing those words they ignore them and figure &quot;if it's on the news, it must be true&quot;<br /> <br /> Dan Rather was framed.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6073449/site/newsweek/">Here's an msnbc article about the story Dan Rather didn't run that night in favor of the Bush Guard memo story.</a><br /> <br /> The relevance of this story and a certain former white house official on trial right now is pretty interesting. Creepy actually. For you to suggest I spend my time looking for ways to attack the republicans has nothing to do with this current discussion on news channels sir. This thread has come around to discussing news channels, I believe you opened it by talking about Hannity and Colmes. I do not spend my &quot;time&quot; looking for ways to discredit republicans OR cable news networks...and for you to suggest that is sad and very narrow minded. I spend my time on endeavors that are far more important than that. Besides I don't have to waste my time trying to debunk news channels or republicans..they pretty much step in it all by themselves. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53847 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53847 For you to suggest I spend my time looking for ways to attack the republicans has nothing to do with this current discussion on news channels sir. This thread has come around to discussing news channels, I believe you opened it by talking about Hannity and Colmes. I do not spend my &quot;time&quot; looking for ways to discredit republicans OR cable news networks...and for you to suggest that is sad and very narrow minded. I spend my time on endeavors that are far more important than that. Besides I don't have to waste my time trying to debunk news channels or republicans..they pretty much step in it all by themselves. You want to talk about lies and propaganda, only as it concerns Republicans, Dusty.&nbsp; You will deny anything I introduce on the Democrat side.&nbsp; You will win because you are drawn to Republican dirt and that's where your energy is directed.&nbsp; That's what you like to talk about, and it's your blog, but I would invite you to join the positive side of politics and work towards unity instead of division.&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53849 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53849 You want to talk about lies and propaganda, only as it concerns Republicans, Dusty.&nbsp; You will deny anything I introduce on the Democrat side.&nbsp; You will win because you are drawn to Republican dirt and that's where your energy is directed.&nbsp; That's what you like to talk about, and it's your blog, but I would invite you to join the positive side of politics and work towards unity instead of division.&nbsp; Doc, that's a little disingenuous.&nbsp; If the Democrats start lying about Republicans, we'll be first in line to dig that up too.&nbsp; The point is that myself and a few others here hate the lying, no matter where it comes from.&nbsp; By removing any ontological truth from the equation and making it about both sides saying bad things, essentially turning everything into opinion, you do a disservice to everyone.<br /> <br /> You're a reasonable guy, and so you understand that the way to increase bipartisanship would be to go after liars no matter who they are.&nbsp; The reason that this is so irritating is that it has become an increasing common Republican tactic (along with &quot;we don't have enough information&quot;) to punch people in the back and then when they turn around and hit back, cry about unfairness.<br /> <br /> If you want the dialogue to go somewhere, admit to the facts.&nbsp; Then come at us with facts about our guys and see what we do. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53852 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53852 Doc, that's a little disingenuous.&nbsp; If the Democrats start lying about Republicans, we'll be first in line to dig that up too.&nbsp; The point is that myself and a few others here hate the lying, no matter where it comes from.&nbsp; By removing any ontological truth from the equation and making it about both sides saying bad things, essentially turning everything into opinion, you do a disservice to everyone.<br /> <br /> You're a reasonable guy, and so you understand that the way to increase bipartisanship would be to go after liars no matter who they are.&nbsp; The reason that this is so irritating is that it has become an increasing common Republican tactic (along with &quot;we don't have enough information&quot;) to punch people in the back and then when they turn around and hit back, cry about unfairness.<br /> <br /> If you want the dialogue to go somewhere, admit to the facts.&nbsp; Then come at us with facts about our guys and see what we do. I asked you for an example of propaganda put out by MSNBC BLT. We were discussing cable news networks, were we not? You change the topic now sir, because it suits your interests to do so. Republicans have nothing to do with FOX news' propaganda..perhaps they do, but that wasn't my point of contention BLT. You might call lies and innuendo 'dirt'..I do not see debunking the lies of FOX news as digging up 'dirt'. You failed to provide one scintilla of information on propaganda put out by MSNBC..a legitimate request by me since you brought up Fox News..not me or anyone else. Since you can not provide such information you become bored with this thread and then tell me what I do here and why.<br /> <br /> Thanks..for changing the subject again and putting it all on me. Good job. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53854 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53854 I asked you for an example of propaganda put out by MSNBC BLT. We were discussing cable news networks, were we not? You change the topic now sir, because it suits your interests to do so. Republicans have nothing to do with FOX news' propaganda..perhaps they do, but that wasn't my point of contention BLT. You might call lies and innuendo 'dirt'..I do not see debunking the lies of FOX news as digging up 'dirt'. You failed to provide one scintilla of information on propaganda put out by MSNBC..a legitimate request by me since you brought up Fox News..not me or anyone else. Since you can not provide such information you become bored with this thread and then tell me what I do here and why.<br /> <br /> Thanks..for changing the subject again and putting it all on me. Good job. For MSNBC propoganda, one needs to look no further than Chris Matthews. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53857 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53857 For MSNBC propoganda, one needs to look no further than Chris Matthews. <p>By the way, BLT, it's fashionable to finish the word now.&nbsp; It's &quot;Democratic&quot; side.</p> <p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/29/AR2007012901845.html">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/29/AR2007012901845.html</a></p> <p>.</p> <p>Did you have an example of a time when Democrats (noun) lied about, say, Republicans?&nbsp; Recently?&nbsp; The TANG story is substantiated, as Pete pointed out.&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53858 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53858 <p>By the way, BLT, it's fashionable to finish the word now.&nbsp; It's &quot;Democratic&quot; side.</p> <p><a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/29/AR2007012901845.html">http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/29/AR2007012901845.html</a></p> <p>.</p> <p>Did you have an example of a time when Democrats (noun) lied about, say, Republicans?&nbsp; Recently?&nbsp; The TANG story is substantiated, as Pete pointed out.&nbsp; </p> For a final rub, you deliver this BLT:<br /> <strong>&quot;You will deny anything I introduce on the Democrat side.&quot;</strong><br /> <br /> This wasn't about Democrats and Republicans. But even giving you that..I did not deny Rathers story. I said yes he did it and he also apologized on air and quit his job because of it. John Gibson has not done either of those things when perpetuating the lies about Barack Obama. Yet You sir, hold me accountable for single-handingly ruining the dialog in this country and on these threads because I give you some truth about your FOX news channel. <br /> <br /> Thanks again for your $1.35*<br /> *adjusted for inflation..it used to be 2 cents. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53860 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53860 For a final rub, you deliver this BLT:<br /> <strong>&quot;You will deny anything I introduce on the Democrat side.&quot;</strong><br /> <br /> This wasn't about Democrats and Republicans. But even giving you that..I did not deny Rathers story. I said yes he did it and he also apologized on air and quit his job because of it. John Gibson has not done either of those things when perpetuating the lies about Barack Obama. Yet You sir, hold me accountable for single-handingly ruining the dialog in this country and on these threads because I give you some truth about your FOX news channel. <br /> <br /> Thanks again for your $1.35*<br /> *adjusted for inflation..it used to be 2 cents. Since you guys (and at least one gal)&nbsp;are all out to lunch anyway (pun intended, but not intended to be taken seriously), may I propose a lunch truce?&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53861 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53861 Since you guys (and at least one gal)&nbsp;are all out to lunch anyway (pun intended, but not intended to be taken seriously), may I propose a lunch truce?&nbsp; I know that Pete, and I gave BLT the opportunity to use that to his advantage..instead he took his keyboard and went home. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53862 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53862 I know that Pete, and I gave BLT the opportunity to use that to his advantage..instead he took his keyboard and went home. Sure BLT..we can call a lunch truce..have a good afternoon and eat somethig good for you. No Big Macs http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53863 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53863 Sure BLT..we can call a lunch truce..have a good afternoon and eat somethig good for you. No Big Macs Big Mac?&nbsp; Amateur!&nbsp; Chili-cheese fries:&nbsp; heart attack on a plate. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53865 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53865 Big Mac?&nbsp; Amateur!&nbsp; Chili-cheese fries:&nbsp; heart attack on a plate. Yuck! I hate those things random..they taste nasty. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53866 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53866 Yuck! I hate those things random..they taste nasty. De gustibus non est disputandem, which is Latin for &quot;pass the hot sauce, please.&quot; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53867 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53867 De gustibus non est disputandem, which is Latin for &quot;pass the hot sauce, please.&quot; Actually random, it means:<br /> <br /> &quot;There is no point in disputing about tastes&quot; I think. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53869 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53869 Actually random, it means:<br /> <br /> &quot;There is no point in disputing about tastes&quot; I think. Ita,&nbsp;iocus fuit.&nbsp; (&quot;Yes, it was a joke.&quot;&nbsp; I speak Latin. ;) http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53870 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53870 Ita,&nbsp;iocus fuit.&nbsp; (&quot;Yes, it was a joke.&quot;&nbsp; I speak Latin. ;) Damn, you speak Latin? wow..I am impressed. I speak spanglish :P http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53874 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53874 Damn, you speak Latin? wow..I am impressed. I speak spanglish :P I always thought the heart attack on a plate was the Monte Cristo.<br /> <br /> <br /> <img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/02/Monte_Cristo_Sandwich.jpg/300px-Monte_Cristo_Sandwich.jpg" alt="The image “http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/02/Monte_Cristo_Sandwich.jpg/300px-Monte_Cristo_Sandwich.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors." /> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53875 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53875 I always thought the heart attack on a plate was the Monte Cristo.<br /> <br /> <br /> <img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/02/Monte_Cristo_Sandwich.jpg/300px-Monte_Cristo_Sandwich.jpg" alt="The image “http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/02/Monte_Cristo_Sandwich.jpg/300px-Monte_Cristo_Sandwich.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors." /> I do like them Pete, but haven't had one in ages. Gotta go to physical therapy..see you gents later. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53877 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53877 I do like them Pete, but haven't had one in ages. Gotta go to physical therapy..see you gents later. You know they still serve those things at Cindy's (on the eastside), right? I'm pretty sure they have medical disclaimers on the menu, and a set of defibrillator paddles in each booth in case you decide to order them.... http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53878 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53878 You know they still serve those things at Cindy's (on the eastside), right? I'm pretty sure they have medical disclaimers on the menu, and a set of defibrillator paddles in each booth in case you decide to order them.... dusty, your arteries thank you.<br /> <br /> When does the <a href="http://www.heartattackgrill.com/">Heart attack grill</a> come to Bakersfield? http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53883 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53883 dusty, your arteries thank you.<br /> <br /> When does the <a href="http://www.heartattackgrill.com/">Heart attack grill</a> come to Bakersfield? <p>Not enough salt in a Monte Cristo.&nbsp; A friend of mine has one every year on her birthday.</p> <p>.</p> <p>Chili-cheese fries and a coke are the perfect meal, covering all four basic food groups:&nbsp; salt, sugar, grease and caffeine.</p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53885 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53885 <p>Not enough salt in a Monte Cristo.&nbsp; A friend of mine has one every year on her birthday.</p> <p>.</p> <p>Chili-cheese fries and a coke are the perfect meal, covering all four basic food groups:&nbsp; salt, sugar, grease and caffeine.</p> Sandy Berger with fries, anyone?&nbsp; Oops, I forgot, you won't allow that rotten &quot;meal&quot; on the menu.&nbsp; Just kidding.&nbsp; I'm back, I'm full, and I've lost my appetite for arguing with liberals.&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53891 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53891 Sandy Berger with fries, anyone?&nbsp; Oops, I forgot, you won't allow that rotten &quot;meal&quot; on the menu.&nbsp; Just kidding.&nbsp; I'm back, I'm full, and I've lost my appetite for arguing with liberals.&nbsp; Hello?! It looks like everybody's left for a late lunch, and left me out in the cold. http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53956 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53956 Hello?! It looks like everybody's left for a late lunch, and left me out in the cold. <p>Sure, let's talk about Sandy Berger.&nbsp; Did you know he pled guilty, had no access to original material, never stuffed anything into his socks, and is irrelevant to what's going on now?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </p> <p>.</p> <p>And that the Bush Administration kept far more from the 9/11 commission than Berger could have moved in a steamer trunk?&nbsp; And that the 9/11 commission was ignored by the Bush Administration?&nbsp; As was the Iraq Study Group?&nbsp; </p> http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53966 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53966 <p>Sure, let's talk about Sandy Berger.&nbsp; Did you know he pled guilty, had no access to original material, never stuffed anything into his socks, and is irrelevant to what's going on now?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </p> <p>.</p> <p>And that the Bush Administration kept far more from the 9/11 commission than Berger could have moved in a steamer trunk?&nbsp; And that the 9/11 commission was ignored by the Bush Administration?&nbsp; As was the Iraq Study Group?&nbsp; </p> How about this, <strong>BLT</strong>. I'll throw you a freakin' bone, and show you <a href="http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/jermox/3410">where some of us &quot;liberals&quot; on these boards (including myself) were wrong</a>, and where the MSM never issued a retraction (that I could find). Remember a month back when there was a news story about how the Bush Administration &quot;allowed&quot; a Creationist book in a Grand Canyon souvenir bookstore, and how the park rangers were no longer allowed to give a scientific age of the Grand Canyon? Some of the stories had park rangers saying it was created during the biblical &quot;Noah&quot; flood, others simply said they weren't permitted to give <em>any</em> age. Well guess what, everybody? You were duped. I've never heard any MSM newspaper or media outlet issue a retraction or correction, other than the original source of the story: <a href="http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-01-17.html">Skeptic Magazine</a>. It looks like Random went back to the blog here on bako.com and posted a link to an alternet blog, but the link no longer works so I'm just assuming here but it looks like he may have come across the same thing. So there you go, folks. &quot;Liberals&quot; can lie for political gain, too. Does that count as contrition, BLT? http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53984 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53984 How about this, <strong>BLT</strong>. I'll throw you a freakin' bone, and show you <a href="http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/jermox/3410">where some of us &quot;liberals&quot; on these boards (including myself) were wrong</a>, and where the MSM never issued a retraction (that I could find). Remember a month back when there was a news story about how the Bush Administration &quot;allowed&quot; a Creationist book in a Grand Canyon souvenir bookstore, and how the park rangers were no longer allowed to give a scientific age of the Grand Canyon? Some of the stories had park rangers saying it was created during the biblical &quot;Noah&quot; flood, others simply said they weren't permitted to give <em>any</em> age. Well guess what, everybody? You were duped. I've never heard any MSM newspaper or media outlet issue a retraction or correction, other than the original source of the story: <a href="http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/07-01-17.html">Skeptic Magazine</a>. It looks like Random went back to the blog here on bako.com and posted a link to an alternet blog, but the link no longer works so I'm just assuming here but it looks like he may have come across the same thing. So there you go, folks. &quot;Liberals&quot; can lie for political gain, too. Does that count as contrition, BLT? Thanks for the bone, mattloch.&nbsp; You already seem to understand that I don't set the bar very high when it comes to liberals asking themselves if they've ever sinned before casting the first stone.&nbsp; Now let's hear from the rest of you.&nbsp; Are you even 5% as passionate about noticing and investigating dirt on your own side of the fence as you are about noticing and investigating dirt on the other side?&nbsp; http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53994 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_53994 Thanks for the bone, mattloch.&nbsp; You already seem to understand that I don't set the bar very high when it comes to liberals asking themselves if they've ever sinned before casting the first stone.&nbsp; Now let's hear from the rest of you.&nbsp; Are you even 5% as passionate about noticing and investigating dirt on your own side of the fence as you are about noticing and investigating dirt on the other side?&nbsp; <strong>BLT</strong>, you have to realize that &quot;liberals&quot; haven't had much opportunity to make things up for the past 6-7 years. Since the Republicans have been in power for so long, all the media has to do is sit back and show what they're doing. The truth is so much better than fiction right now. We've got so many disasters, both natural and man-made that the media doesn't need to go around inventing more problems. For every &quot;liberal&quot; dirty story there are dozens of &quot;conservative&quot; ones. And right now it's the &quot;conservative&quot; ones that are costing lives and money, whereas the &quot;liberal&quot; ones are only personally embarrassing..... http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_54054 http://people.bakersfield.com/home/Blog/dusty1215/2333/#c_54054 <strong>BLT</strong>, you have to realize that &quot;liberals&quot; haven't had much opportunity to make things up for the past 6-7 years. Since the Republicans have been in power for so long, all the media has to do is sit back and show what they're doing. The truth is so much better than fiction right now. We've got so many disasters, both natural and man-made that the media doesn't need to go around inventing more problems. For every &quot;liberal&quot; dirty story there are dozens of &quot;conservative&quot; ones. And right now it's the &quot;conservative&quot; ones that are costing lives and money, whereas the &quot;liberal&quot; ones are only personally embarrassing.....