Would you support a grocery strike? - Retail Rumblings - schuster80's Blog - Bakersfield.com

Jun 26, 2007 at 08:06 AM : I won't cross a...

I won't cross a grocery picket line.

Jun 26, 2007 at 08:06 AM : Nor will I. Why would...

Nor will I.

Why would we want to support a return to serfdom and feutalism?

Jun 26, 2007 at 08:06 AM : I will not cross the...

I will not cross the line.

Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06 AM : I support the...

I support the workers~there are several places one can shop instead.

Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06 AM : It's a tougher...

It's a tougher call this time around compared to the first strike, where I marched right across it.

Realistically speaking, though, it would hardly affect my shopping behavior, since I absolutely will not shop at Vons, and only shop at Albertson's if there's something that I can't obtain anywhere else, or if they're selling our favorite things at give-away-the-store prices. (And then, we buy only the wildly discounted items.) (But then, significant discounts have all but disappeared from the Albertson's shelves nowadays...)

Vons started that club card crap, and I will eternally punish them for that.

Albertson's is ever trying to trick shoppers using the ole' bait-and-trick, advertising killer discounts and the stocking full price products where the sale items should be. (Generally, they do this by stocking the same product, but in a size that is not the discounted size. Example: boldly advertising 2/$1.00 on 16 oz. bottles of BBQ sauce, and then stocking more expensive, full-price 12 oz. bottles there. (And they're making customers perform increasingly difficult math problems, such as figuring out how much "7 for $2.50" is. Easy for me, but difficult for many other people.)

I won't shop at a store that is forever trying to "pull one over" on people.

Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06 AM : Just as last time, I...

Just as last time, I will not cross their line even though I really didn't get why they "went out", I heard about one of the key issues was that their medical insurance was going from free to $20.00 per month. I don't know about you but I am currently paying $170.00 per month for my "company provided insurance". So......I don't get it. Plus I did talk to some of the employees who work there, they are like friends of mine since I see them at least three times a week. They informed me that they didn't want to "walk out" but when the union walks, you walk. I have belonged to a union myself for years so I do relate with their plight. So NO, I will not cross their line weather I agree with their reasons for "walking" or not.

Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06 AM : I will cross the line...

I will cross the line with glee and a sparkle in my eye, just like last time. While I have nothing against the employees, their union can go take a flying leap and I refuse to change my behavior to further their goals. Unions are on their way to a much deserved extinction, let's not slow down progress, I will keep this post ANON lest a union thug comes to vandalize my property.

Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06 AM : I do not like...

I do not like unions. I will continue to shop at Green Frog.

Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06 AM : koztarr, there are...

koztarr, there are union employees at Green Frog.

Jun 26, 2007 at 10:06 AM : I'll cross that...

I'll cross that line in a heartbeat.

My family needs to eat, and I'm sorry but I put my family above grocery workers I don't know.

And I don't feel like I should have to go to independent grocery stores that are waaaaaaay overpriced.

Grocery workers make a decent wage for being uneducated, so they should be a little more willing to accept proposed contracts.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : I've never...

I've never crossed a picket line and never will. It's ridiculous that people will cross the line when weak unions mean weak wages for everyone. You don't want to pay more? I don't want to make less.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : Unions brought us many...

Unions brought us many of the labor laws that protect us. People have some nerve wishing them out of existence, you should be thanking them for what they contributed to the American workforce.

No, I won't cross the picket line.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : It's interesting...

It's interesting to me that people who dislike unions generally think that we shouldn't work together at a national level either. People working together for everyone's benefit just rubs some people the wrong way. There's a reason the US is refered to as The Union.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : Those who pledge blind...

Those who pledge blind allegiance to unions and who bestow upon them credit for all that is good and wholesome in American society usually have never witnessed their inner machinations first hand. I have. Your pre-conceived notions of their goals and aspirations are wrong. It is a cut-throat business, and union reps and bosses stop at nothing and know no shame in achieving their political goals. They've backed off the violence in recent years, that's about it. The individual member? Disposable. I do not know about the unions of the distant past. I know what they are now, and it's nothing to change your shopping habits over, that's for darn sure.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : I don't care...

I don't care about unions and I don't care about their picket lines. I don't shop at union stores and pay far less for goods than I would if I did.

My husband once was in a union and they cared more about him showing up for a meeting to vote on the union rep getting a new car than they did about his employer putting him on the outside scaffolding of a 4 story building without workman's comp coverage.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : Don't tell me...

Don't tell me about the inner-workings of unions annoy, I have belonged to three different unions and represented the workers in two of them. Your the one with preconceived notions it seems by calling them all bad.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : Grocery workers make a...

Grocery workers make a decent wage for being uneducated

I'm friendly with many of the grocery workers at the two Vons stores I shop at.

Several of them are working their way through college at CSUB. Others have college degrees and work in retail because they either enjoy the contact they have with people or they can't find work in the field of study they graduated in and they stay in Bakersfield because of family. I don't know anyone who has less than a high school diploma who works there.

It's ignorant to believe grocery workers are uneducated.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : I will definitely...

I will definitely cross the picket line. This question was asked last week and I am wondering if the Californian expects different answers, other than the ones they published in Saturdays paper.

There are many people waiting to apply for their jobs if they strike. The workers are mislead by their union leaders. Ask them to find out what their union reps make? And, do they realize that the reps are PAID during the strike unlike the common grocery store worker.

This strike is about preying upon the uneducated worker.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : It is ignorant to...

It is ignorant to believe that a high school diploma is an education.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : It is ignorant to...

It is ignorant to believe that a high school diploma is an education.

That statement alone is ignorance.

You're calling millions of U.S. manufacturing workers uneducated.

Remember that the next time you get in your car, fly in a plane, ride a motorcycle or any other activity which utilizes something made in America.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : Except for rare...

Except for rare circumstances (work experience, High School kid, etc.), would a grocery store hire someone without at least a HS diploma?

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : Any1 sounds like an...

Any1 sounds like an elitist snob.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : I wonder...

I wonder what the union reps are doing for the ex-employees of Ralph's or the ex employees of Guy Chaddick Furniture?

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : What does the closing...

What does the closing of Ralphs have to do with union reps any1? Your question is not only ridiculous, it has nothing to do with the topic of grocery stores going on strike.

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : would a grocery store...

would a grocery store hire someone without at least a HS diploma?

Maybe as a night shift stock boy. But doubtful.

As a cashier or someone in charge of a section? Not likely.

Any1 sounds like an elitist snob.

He sounds like someone with only a high school education. ;)

Jun 26, 2007 at 11:06 AM : Since the 1950's,...

Since the 1950's, when they were at their peak, union membership in the private sector has tumbled from 50% of the workforce to the single digit territory. Union proponents like to blame republicans and shrewd employers, as if both of these things did not exist a half century ago. Unions are to blame for their demise. Greed and corruption has a way of doing that. All unions? No. Most, and the UFCW is certainly no angel. They are part of the push to abolish secret ballot union elections. They want to form unions by presenting signatures that they themselves collected. Unions own France, and France is in bad shape, 35 hour workweek and 5 week vacations notwithstanding. Why do you think they just had a conservative revolution over there?

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Anonymous of 11:49...

Anonymous of 11:49

No, I am someone with not much more than a high school education with no diploma. ( They don't pass them out with the GED.)

My last job was mowing on a golf course for minimum wage, not exactly anything to get snobish about.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : I WILL...

I WILL ABSOLUTELY cross the picket line. NO one is holding a gun to these people's heads, making them work there. If they are so unhappy, they should get another job. Are they going to pay for my gas to drive to another store? Do they give a crap about what kind of benefits you and I or anybody else gets at our jobs? Of course not. So they've got a personal problem. waaah

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : France's idea of...

France's idea of conservative is not the same as your idea of conservative annoy. Reagan started busting up the unions when he broke the back of the Air Traffic Controllers union.
From a tompaine article:
In 1978, the labor movement sought to restore some of the workers rights that had been eroded by Taft-Hartley. A labor law reform bill was defeated by one vote in the Senate. Pressured by heavy lobbying from business, Democratic Senator Dale Bumpers of Arkansas was instrumental in the failure to override a Republican filibuster.

This victory strengthened business’ hand even more. Nothing symbolized this more than President Ronald Reagan’s busting of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Association after they engaged in an illegal strike in 1981. Under Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and now George W. Bush, federal agencies designed to protect workers rights—such as the NLRB and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration—have had their budgets cut and their enforcement staffs eviscerated. Meanwhile, business’s violations of labor laws have increased exponentially. A new union-busting consulting industry has flourished.

The weakness of the American labor movement—compared to its counterparts in other affluent, democratic societies—accounts for many troublesome aspects of our society. The U.S. has the widest gap between rich and poor among democratic nations. It also has the highest poverty rate; 13 percent of all Americans, more than 37 million people, live below poverty. The pay gap between men and women is wider in the U.S. than in other affluent countries. We are the only democratic society without universal health insurance; 47 million Americans lack even basic coverage. We spend less on job training, child care, and affordable housing, and more on prisons, than these other nations. Americans work longer hours, get fewer paid vacation days, and have fewer rights on the job than workers elsewhere. Our environmental and workplace safety laws are weak and poorly-enforced.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Congressional...

Congressional Republicans just killed the pro-union "Employee Free Choice" bill.

That makes Iraq, unions, stem cells, among many other issues that "special interest" groups can run political "issue" (re: hit) ads against in the upcoming elections. Adam, still think that yesterdays' SCOTUS decision on McCain-Feingold was a bad thing? The conservatives may find yesterday's decision hurts them much more than they first believed......

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Conservatives in...

Conservatives in France would not want to gid rid of 5 week vacations. They focus more on immigration/citizenship issues and the role of France within the EU.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : GrpThink: Sorry to...

GrpThink:

Sorry to inform you, but there ARE many undeducated people who work in grocery stores. Do you think it takes a genius to fill a paper sack full of groceries? What do you think that job requires? A Master's degree?

And as for the ridiculous line you drew towards factory workers... who do you think are the people designing the products? The guys with the college degrees, or the guys who have the education to snap two pieces together on an assembly line?

The bottom line of all of this is... if the grocery worker's aren't happy with their jobs or their wages, then it's time for them to move on. I work for the school sytem here in Bakersfield, and if some of us went on strike, would you stop your kids from going to school? It's doubtful... and why? Because you care about your kids (or at least you SHOULD) more than a bunch of disgruntled school system workers. The grocery system ordeal is no different. People shouldn't have to shop at expensive independent markets because a bunch of grocery store workers are pissy.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Dusty I just wonder...

Dusty

I just wonder what good a union does when you lose your job thru no fault of your own . Did the retail clerks union help them find new ones? Did the union say call us when you find a new store to work for?

That was my point.

Is the point of a union to represent you only when things are good?

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : "NO one is...

"NO one is hlding a gun to these people's heads, making them work there. If they are so unhappy, they should get another job. Are they going to pay for my gas to drive to another store? Do they give a crap about what kind of benfits you and I or anybody else gets at our jobs? Of course not. So they've got a personal problem. waaah"

This is apparently the variant of the "if you don't love America as I want it to be, leave."

There are people who spend their whole lives working to make things better for everyone. Even the ingrates. If you're rep'd by a union and you don't like the leadship, take control and implement change. Same goes for the government.

Geez, I get tired of the whining. Doesn't mean I'll quit trying to make their lives better.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : I t certainly...

I t certainly wasn't the unions fault that Ralphs made bad business decisions Any1. To infer otherwise is ridiculous. And how do you know the union didn't try to help them find work in other union shops? Can you say for certain that they did not?

One of the bests unions I worked for was the Hotel workers union. When my boss told me to work two more hours, even after I told her I was off shift and had taken some prescription medication for pain, I told her no. I was fired on the spot. The union had my job back in less than three days. Sure, I could of taken them to court for firing me wrongfully, but it would of taken lots of money and many months..all of which would of been unpaid.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Spacemonster, my kids...

Spacemonster, my kids are out of school, but if there were a teacher's picket line at the school I'd just drive them to the *OTHER* school that didn't have a picket line. Oh, there aren't alternatives like just shopping at another grocery store? Maybe your analogy--and your line of argument--don't quite hold water.

I'll not cross a legitimate picket line (and I'm not currently a union member.)

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : "NO one is...

"NO one is holding a gun to these people's heads, making them work there. If they are so unhappy, they should get another job.

They can get another job as individuals but as a union they have the leverage to stop labor en masse. I would think that is the idea behind a union. Management tends to listen to grievances more if more than one person complains.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : but there ARE many...

but there ARE many undeducated people who work in grocery stores

Since I can't find "undeducated" in the dictionary, it's hard to refute this point.

And as for the ridiculous line you drew towards factory workers... who do you think are the people designing the products?

Talk about being ridiculous.

Who cares who's designing the products? It's the people who are manufacturing the parts and putting the product together that matter.

Do you blame the designer of the building or the contractor when the roof caves in?

Yeesh.

I work for the school sytem here in Bakersfield, and if some of us went on strike, would you stop your kids from going to school

If you were getting screwed over in pay and benefits, yes I would keep my kids home to support you.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : "If you were...

"If you were getting screwed over in pay and benefits, yes I would keep my kids home to support you."

.....So then, you would place the "rights" of bickering worker's over the education of your children?

interesting.

to each their own, I guess.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Dusty I 'm...

Dusty

I 'm clueless as to what the union did for them and it sounds like you are too.

I am glad that your union got your job back but the union my husband belonged to did nothing about making sure that workman's comp paid for his front teeth when they were knocked out on a job. His new teeth were paid for out of his boss" pocket and the incident was never put 'on the books' consequently we are SOL if anything else happens to them.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Spacemonster are you...

Spacemonster are you actually that uninformed or just being obtuse? Your whole argument is fraught with inaccuracies and down right bs. The whole reason for striking is to improve EVERYONE's lot. Its not the individual, its the group. Your sick and downright farkwitted argument about looking for another job would be hysterical if it wasn't so downright ridiculous. Thats how unions get busted..with simple minds such as yours ignoring what the goal is and only looking at the short term.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : So then, you...

So then, you would place the "rights" of bickering worker's over the education of your children?

You're assuming I wouldn't home school them during the strike, which I would. It would be a valuable lesson for them on worker-labor relations.

You said you work for the school district. It's apparent you're in administration and not a teacher. And that makes you biased.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Any1, it helps if you...

Any1, it helps if you realize that the grocery union workers *LOST* the last strike.

And Spacemonster, I too would keep my kids out of school if I thought the teachers were being shafted. I would use the opportunity to *TEACH* them about collective action for the collective good...

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Then if you don't...

Then if you don't know for certain what, if anything, the union did, and are just running your yap... Its called making crap up as you go along to further your own agenda..which is to make the unions appear useless. Nice try Any1.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : From The Associated...

From The Associated Press, here is a breakdown of what the union and supermarkets are negotiating over:
The union representing 65,000 Southern California supermarket workers, the United Food and Commercial Workers, wants to regain concessions made three years ago that created a two-tiered system splitting employees into separate wage and benefit classes.
Prior to that deal, veteran employees qualified for health care after four months and didn’t have to pay any health premiums. Now, workers have had to wait 12 months or more to qualify for health coverage — longer for their dependents — and have been asked to pay premiums for health care.
The supermarkets have offered to remove the wage cap for employees hired after 2004, allowing them to eventually earn as much as veteran employees. The union says the terms are too onerous, as they would require the mostly part-time employees work more than 10 years to reach the top of the pay scale.
The latest company proposals also only offer wage increases to the top tier of workers, according to the union.
The union and the supermarkets appear closer to agreement on the framework of employees’ health plan, having agreed in principle to expand benefits and to shorten the time it takes for workers and their dependents to qualify for health care.
Still, both sides remain far apart on how much money the employers and the workers should contribute to fund the plan.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Five bucks says all...

Five bucks says all the anti-union folks on this post didn't know what the strike was about. I did.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : You said you work for...

You said you work for the school district. It's apparent you're in administration and not a teacher. And that makes you biased.

Nope.

I'm a grunt without a degree, and that's why I don't pity the uneducated grocery workers.

I'm working on my degree, as are many grocery workers.

But for now, I'm "uneducated" as far as the work force is concerned.

The work force doesn't care if you're "working" on your degree... the work force only cares if you have it or not.

And until you have it, you are at the mercy of your occupation.

The occupation that you CHOSE.

And if your union takes you to strike, you shouldn't expect people to alter their lives just for little old you, because that's not the way of the world.

It's a dog eat dog world, and it really is as simple as that.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Maybe in your...

Maybe in your narrow-minded pov spacemonster, but not in mine. Sorry, but your words have no meaning to me, they are your self-serving pov and nothing more. One for all and all for one makes more sense to me than its a dog eat dog world.

The world is what we make it..and your not working too hard to make it better for everyone it appears.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : And I hope the union...

And I hope the union can hold fast and get the things back the benefits they lost in the last strike Anon @ 12:40pm

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : By never crossing a...

By never crossing a picket line, you are in effect saying that a union is never wrong and the company is never right. It is inherently an uneducated and mindless position. Unions can often teach a corporation a thing or two about being greedy and unreasonable, and they count on the mindless automatons in society to back them up at the picket line.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : "The world is...

"The world is what we make it..and your not working too hard to make it better for everyone it appears."

And I suppose your are?? There are a lot of self righteous people on here whom I bet don't do a thing to help the really unfortunate - like the homeless, the elderly that can't afford their medication, the vets that can't get their VA benefits. But you support a grocery worker strike by god. Get over yourselves and REALLY do something. Talk is cheap.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Anon 12:02 : I...

Anon 12:02 : I couldn't have said it better !!

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Dusty, if it came...

Dusty,

if it came down to it, and you had very little money... not enough money to shop at independent markets, I guarantee you... you'd cross that line if it was the only way you could afford to feed your family.

It's called survival.

Despite what you think, you're not above the rest of the human race.

When it comes down to survival, people tend to lose their musketeer attitudes pretty quickly.

And you can claim all you want (electronically) that you're different, but I'd place money down that you're not.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Anon@ 12:44,your the...

Anon@ 12:44,your the one making the generalizations here. No one has said all unions are good. But inherently they are all not bad either. Corporations very seldom care more about their employees than their bottom line..but go ahead and keep believing that they do..its your right to stay as uninformed as you wish. To be informed means you know what they are striking over and then make the determination whether to support the strike or not.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : When I took care of my...

When I took care of my son I was paid for some of that time~mind you it was just me 24/7,if the state did it thats 3 people plus admin. etc~at $5.55 no benefits.Then a union was voted in and negotiated with Kern County ,the wage was $8.50 then,no benefits.What that did for the quality of our lives was immeasurable.You may ask "So?" If you have aging parents,gods forbid a disaster strike you or yours,the person taking care of them is someone like me (at the time).How much is peace of mind worth? To know the person loves what they do,can afford to do it?Unions for all their faults have protected the nations workers and continue to do so.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : I'm working on my...

I'm working on my degree, as are many grocery workers.

And yet you agreed with anny that grocery workers are "undeducated". Contradict yourself much?

But for now, I'm "uneducated" as far as the work force is concerned.

Then, according to you, the vast majority of the U.S. workforce is uneducated.

http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/econ/eop/2006/2006-2.pdf

And let's take a look at this statistic while we're at it:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/06/weller_mixed_bag.html

Good luck getting a job in your field of study when you graduate. You're going to need it.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Dusty I thought it...

Dusty

I thought it was a coversation. I 'll quit running the 'yap'.

I don't have any 'agenda', and I don't 'make stuff up'.

Have a good one.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : And I call BullS**t on...

And I call BullS**t on that one spacemonster. You can not guarantee anything when it comes to me and what I do. I do not shop at WalMart either. Its called standing up for what I believe in spite of the cost or toll it takes on me. I have gone out on strike in the the past and I know the toll and price it takes on lives and bank accounts. Evidently I will stand up for what I believe in, unlike you who thinks with your wallet. There are plenty of options for shopping elsewhere..no matter how you paint this strike.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Its a conversation...

Its a conversation until people infer things which aren't true or they do not know if they are true Any1. You subjected us to your conjecture just to make a point that the unions didn't support workers who had lost their jobs...the fact is you don't know if they did or did not. Thats called a fabrication..or in other words..a lie that served your own interests which are to bash unions.

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : GrpThink , You chose...

GrpThink ,

You chose to ignore what I said. Let me break it down very, very simply for you, so that you can understand.

1. Many grocery workers ARE uneducated.

2. However, many grocery workers ARE working on degrees.

3. BUT... they will not be considered "educated" in the eyes of the work force until they are HOLDING their degrees.

Where's the contradiction there?

What exactly are you not understanding? Or are you just being pissy because I struck a nerve?

Are you a grocery bagger?

Jun 26, 2007 at 12:06 PM : Cross it in without...

Cross it in without guilt or anything else. Was a member of Retail Clerks many years ago. What you see today is the RETAIL CLUCKS! These are the same dumb %$$%^&^ that have stalled the Wal-Mart super centers. The current leadership of the CLUCKS have no brains and could care less about their members. They sold out their members years ago. As to any love for the supermarkets, we shop primarily at Food Maxx, Costco, Sam's and ONLY ad items at Von's and Albertsons. They to have become just corporate giants who could care less for the public or their employee's. Just look at how much the Big Three netted last year - $8,000,000,000.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Change gears much...

Change gears much space monster? These are your words:

Grocery workers make a decent wage for being uneducated, so they should be a little more willing to accept proposed contracts.

The bottom line of all of this is... if the grocery worker's aren't happy with their jobs or their wages, then it's time for them to move on

People shouldn't have to shop at expensive independent markets because a bunch of grocery store workers are pissy.

No one is making you do squat spacemonster. You keep your self-serving pov and shop where ever your litttle heart wants ok? Your the dog eat dog person, where as some of us believe in working as a group to affect change for the betterment of all.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : dusty1215 , You sound...

dusty1215 ,

You sound like some self-righteous little college kid who takes a poli sci class and thinks he knows what the world is all about.

You might attend an anti-war rally somewhere.... maybe vow not to shop at Wal Mart because someone once told you Indonesian children make the shoes they sell.

But you're just like everyone you seem to be against... you're just another person eating what you're fed.

But don't worry... one day you'll grow out of the self-righteousness phase and become an adult.

Maybe one day you'll even have to (*gasp*) survive, and then we'll see how fragile your little set of values is.

You shouldn't come on blogs to preach to people.

Don't tell me about civi virtues or the good of society...

I care more than most.

I'm a registered member of the Green Party... I've personally worked with Ralph Nader on his campaigns...

I know about civic virtue, and over the years I've learned to spot the people who are all talk.

And you are DEFINITELY one.

So go ahead and spin your self-righteous, holier-than-thou bull***t, but you're no different than anyone else.

later.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : And you spacemonster...

And you spacemonster sound like an uninformed, self-centered, whiner..your point would be what?

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : There are obviously a...

There are obviously a great many people on this blog topic that see the relationships between the declines of unions and the decline of worker protections in the market place. The correlation between the erosion of wages and the single person bargaining strategy for employees is also very evident. Many folks also seem to understand the interconnectedness with each other in these respects.

There are some on this post topic that just don't see the correlations, or choose to ignore the mountains of evidence concerning the damages done by an elite priviledged class that has made America into a two class economy.

Today's work force sees many companies disallow consecutive days off as a condition of employment. Health benefits only become available after a lengthy stay at a company, some times for as long as 18 months, and for many are too costly to obtain given the low wage they earn. It is almost compulsory today that drug tests must be passed before being hired. At many places a background check is mandated through the Department of Justice.

There seems to be some thinking here from union haters that all these workers are just not as good as the people they serve. These are uneducated simpletons and untouchables in our society to be used, abused and discarded when they cry for economic relief with living wage and benefit requests. When did full time employment become classified as 18 to 28 hours per week in America? When did becoming a salaried employee mean you no longer have a life outside of work, because you have to be connected and on call 24/7 through computer, cellular phone and planner device?

As long as the magic 300,000 have people so focused on union shortcomings, the decline of America will continue. Soon Americans will be the emigres looking elsewhere in other more prosperous countries for opportunity.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : 1. Many grocery...

1. Many grocery workers ARE uneducated.

According to your definition of uneducated. I demonstrated, with a cite showing exact numbers, that the vast majority of the U.S. workforce is considered uneducated according to your definition.

they will not be considered "educated" in the eyes of the work force until they are HOLDING their degrees

So you're saying that the vast majority of the U.S. workforce considers themselves uneducated?

I find that HIGHLY dubious and require proof of this.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : I think spacemonster...

I think spacemonster took his keyboard and went home to grouse and take my name in vain Grpthink :P

Good points Adam!

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : "One of the...

"One of the bests unions I worked for was the Hotel workers union."

Hey Dusty,

The only union I was in was the Long Beach and Orange County Hotel Employees and Restaurant Local 681. Totally in bed with hotel management, they got us a nickel an hour raise in one negotiation and nothing in another. Of course union dues went up on a regular basis. They forced us to cross the picket line of the front desk personnel in their strike. Their dentist was a butcher. A good buddy got fired because management overheard him be astonished at the price of a Coke. The union did get him reinstated after three months. I total loser we all hated got reinstated the next day after a worthy firing. The president of the union retired to his Palm Springs estate which included a landing strip for his private plane.

Other than that, I'm a big fan of unions...

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : I think spacemonster...

I think spacemonster took his keyboard and went home to grouse and take my name in vain Grpthink

Or he/she is pouring over Google looking for evidence that the majority of U.S. workers consider themselves uneducated.

Adam, great points. It goes back to my original post in this blog:

Why would we want to support a return to serfdom and feutalism?

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : excellent points...

excellent points adam~if your name is taken in vain Dusty,well it is counter balanced by those who know you,your facts and figures and by those who go back a bit farther than "Nadar in the Ive done my civic duty" line..and who sing your praises. :-)

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Spacemonster, I hope...

Spacemonster, I hope you're not working on a social sciences degree.

I find it interesting that people attacking unions (in general) have said nothing about the specific union in this case, or the specific issues under discussion. Why do you think that is?

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Are some union bosses...

Are some union bosses corrupt? Yes.

Are some union bosses enriching themselves at the expense of the workers? Yes

But they are the exception, not the rule.

And the alternative is not acceptable.

For a historical perspective, read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle". It was the working conditions in the slaughter factories in Chicago which gave rise to the unionization movement.

Why do you think that is?

Alex, can I have "They don't know the issues" for $800 please?

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Robb, I am sure for...

Robb, I am sure for every negative story out there, there is an equally positive one. I never said all unions were good..but I have never worked under a bad one, so I have nothing to compare I guess. I went to the meetings I spoke my mind and I if they didn't like it that was too bad. But I still feel they are inherently better than depending on the good graces of your employer to take care of you and always have your best interests in mind. people who don't stay informed and who don't hold their unions accountable probably would have negative things to say. I would never totally depend on a union to protect me and no one should. Corruption and graft is in every place where people do not stay informed and hold the hierarchy accountable whether its a corporation or a workers union.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Mattloch, until Ryan...

Mattloch, until Ryan put the issues out there, I would bet most of the anti-union folks didn't have a clue. But..I could be wrong :P

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Over 10 years ago, the...

Over 10 years ago, the union workers of Vons/Albertsons were picketing the SaveMart on Calloway/Rosedale because they were a non-union shop opening up in Bakersfield. They asked that you not support a non-union grocery store. Three years ago I was asked to not cross the picket line at Vons and instead go shop at SaveMart. SaveMart is still non-union, why the change of heart? Apparently with the grocery unions were damned either way. I honestly don't understand the philosophy of support our company when we are happy, but don't support our company when we are not. Don't be fickle or you might not have any customers down the road. We have a choice! Obvioulsy the strike didn't work last time...why think it will this time?

I agree that unions had a place in history and helped carve out the American way of life. Labor laws came out of unions, but now that labor laws exist we don't need both. I've seen first hand what unions have done to the K-12 education system. Your child's welfare isn't as important as the inept employee who revels in the fact that it's nearly impossible to fire him.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Dusty, The unions are...

Dusty,

The unions are squeaky clean compared to the current administration.

But you never hear the anti-union people saying a word criticizing them.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : — and have...

— and have been asked to pay premiums for health care.

I have worked for some of the top oil companies in California for almost 25 years now and I have always paid premiums for my "company provided" health care, as has just about anyone in any occupation I know. The employee contribution I now pay for Kaiser HMO is $170.00 per month. As for the younger workers "catching up" to what the "veteran" workers get, I have seen that happen to myself as well, I think it's great. It is not taking anything away from us "old dogs" and maybe the "pups" should make more, the cost of living is showing no sign of slowing.

I will repeat, I am a union member and I will show my "brothers and sisters support" no matter what their grievances are.

I will not cross their line

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : mattloch : I'm...

mattloch :

I'm not attacking the unions.

Sometimes they do good, sometimes they do bad.

My mother is a member of UFCW, and has worked retail for many, many years.

She has had a love/ hate relationship with the union from day one.

My problem here is not with the union, and I challenge you to show me where exactly it is in any of my comments that I bashed the union.

All I'm saying is, I'm crossing the line.

Once, a few years ago, when people crossed my mother who was on the line, my mother told me that she felt no resentment towards those people because she knew they had to do what they had to do in order to feed their families.

If any of you think that all of the workers felt like being on strike for 5 or 6 months a few years ago was reasonable, then you're insane.

There's a lot of self-righteous idiots on this blog accusing people of not knowing anything about the subject matter.

And I got news for you, Grpthink:

the fact that you have a search engine and can look up statistics that only half-speak for your weak arguments, doesn't mean that you're some kind of intellectual.

A moron can operate google.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : why the change of...

why the change of heart

The union made it clear they were encouraging shoppers to non-union stores to lessen the impact of the strike on the shoppers. In other words, the unions did it as a courtesy for their customers.

but now that labor laws exist we don't need both

Considering the pro-business and anti-worker laws passed in the last six years of Repug control of Congress and the WH, unions are needed more than ever.

I've seen first hand what unions have done to the K-12 education system

The defunding of education has had a much bigger impact.

Would you like to address that issue?

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : I went to a...

I went to a union meeting at the request of our steward. Turned out there weren't enough people there for a quorum, so the head of the local and his lawyer stooge came over to talk to the two of us personally. The steward started reading them the riot act and stormed off saying he quit. After a pregnant pause, the head guy turns to me and says, "Have you considered becoming a steward?"

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Dusty, if they had a...

Dusty, if they had a clue about the issues, or knew anything about the last strike (and the millions in fines the corporations had to pay for their illegal actions during them), they wouldn't be debating the issue. Of course, since nobody wants to talk about the specific union, or the issues, they actually could know (and not be able to argue against them), and so instead choose to bash unions in general. But I could be wrong..... I'm just waiting to be proven wrong......

Many modern unions have had to make great sacrifices to simply survive these days (just look at the Delphi agreement a few days ago for a clue, or the airline pilot's union a few months back). Corporations are demanding huge concessions, and the unions are put into a bad place because of horrible business decisions made by the corporations. Because many unions have been busted, you don't have the strength for "sympathy strikes" as you see in other countries. And because of weak unions, you see much worse worker protections in the US compared to other countries. In many European countries with strong labor unions and labor laws, are the corporations hurting? Hell, US companies are moving to Canada and other countries because of the health care and retirement systems paid for by the national government! Instead of seeing that as a call for those in this country, people are using that as a reason to weaken unions. Totally bass-ackwards, and totally self-destructive.

People seem to think that a "free labor market" and no labor unions makes things better for consumers. It only serves to make things better for companies, and worse for employees. And since not everybody can be a small business owner, that means a lot more people are hurt than are helped..... with power and resources increasingly funneled upwards into the pudgy hands of the owners of capital, and away from the vast majority of the public.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : the fact that you have...

the fact that you have a search engine and can look up statistics that only half-speak for your weak arguments, doesn't mean that you're some kind of intellectual.

It means that I can back up the things I say with factual evidence.

A moron can operate google.

And yet you made statements which a simple Google search showed to be erronous. Google could have prevented you from being wrong.

What does that tell you?

There's a lot of self-righteous idiots on this blog accusing people of not knowing anything about the subject matter

So prove us wrong by addressing the issues of the current labor dispute and not just say "unions bad".

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Grp:...

Grp: The union made it clear they were encouraging shoppers to non-union stores to lessen the impact of the strike on the shoppers. In other words, the unions did it as a courtesy for their customers.

Is the union going to pay the difference in price for us?

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : GrpThink The links...

GrpThink

The links you provided with so-called "evidence" were both flimsy and weak, and were a real stretch for the point you were trying to make.

Come back with REAL evidence.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : That IS a...

That IS a courtesy to ask me to load my two kids back into the car and drive 10 minutes away to the closest non-union shop, while passing 3 union stores on the way. Then I get to either pay higher prices or HERE'S THE MOST COURTEOUS THING...bag my own groceries! WOW the Unions are sensitive to my needs. They are jewels...they really are...courteous jewels.

Jun 26, 2007 at 01:06 PM : Actually the store we...

Actually the store we went to, instead of "crossing the line" during the last grocery strike, was somewhat cheaper than Vons or Albertsons.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Corporations are...

Corporations are demanding huge concessions, and the unions are put into a bad place because of horrible business decisions made by the corporations

And at the same time the CEOs of those corporations are getting hundreds of millions in bonuses.

You specifically mentioned the airline pilots:

It may look like chicken feed in this era of mammoth executive pay packages, but a combined $21 million in stock payouts to five top executives at American Airlines is looming large in labor talks with pilots still angry about pay concessions made four years ago.

The head of the Northwest Airlines pilots union said Wednesday that the company's executives are poised to award themselves excessive compensation, even though the airline's projected profitability was achieved largely because employees took deep pay cuts.

Bankrupt United Airlines paid its chief executive a bonus of over USD366,000 last year. According to documents filed with the US Securities and Exchange Commission on Wednesday (16 March) the airline's CEO Glenn Tilton received salary payments totalling USD756,832 in 2004, plus a bonus of USD366,393. In August 2004 he accepted a salary cut to USD712,500 from USD845,500. At the same time, United was seeking salary and other concessions from union workers. During American's annual stockholder meeting, Arpey said that the $160 million in stock awards given to top executives and managers was a motivational tool that helped keep the carrier out of bankruptcy. Per a plan the bankruptcy court will rule on this week, 400 United execs will get 8% of the company (10 million shares), worth about $115 million, while wiping out much of equity

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : The links you provided...

The links you provided with so-called "evidence" were both flimsy and weak, and were a real stretch for the point you were trying to make.

JESUS CHRIST!

It was a report to the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES!

You didn't even go to the link, did you?

You're not doing yourself any favors by continuing to post on this blog.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Space, you've...

Space, you've done nothing but bash unions, saying that they help whiners and the uneducated when employees should be tossed to the whims of the employer. You've claimed that you'll cross the line because your family's survival is at stake. You've implied that everybody crossing the line is in a similar situation. You've said nothing positive about unions. You've certainly not mentioned the specific issues being discussed between the union and grocery companies. Until your [1:44] post, you didn't mention the previous grocery workers' strike.

But hey, that's all fine. Just continue to make gross generalizations and simplistic comparisons. I'm really getting a kick out of your replies.....

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Evidently annoy...

Evidently annoy didn't read this part of one of my comments..let me post it again:

Under Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and now George W. Bush, federal agencies designed to protect workers rights—such as the NLRB and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration—have had their budgets cut and their enforcement staffs eviscerated. Meanwhile, business’s violations of labor laws have increased exponentially. A new union-busting consulting industry has flourished.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : GrpThink.....defunding...

GrpThink.....defunding of education? Schools have money being thrown at them left and right by the government. The poorer the students of the district, the richer the school.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : A new union-busting...

A new union-busting consulting industry has flourished

We saw evidence of this when the video was released where lawyers were instructing employers on how to not hire American workers in favor of foreigners.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fx--jNQYNgA

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : dusty you turn every...

dusty you turn every blog into a Hate Bush page. Get a life or stay off of the blog. It would appear you have a real self-esteem problem What in the hell does the grocery business-Retail Clucks have to do with Bush? Did you also notice you had 10 times more posts than anyone else?

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Mattloch, You've...

Mattloch,

You've yet to provide the textual evidence that I've bashed unions.

How daft are you?

Why are you not getting what I'm saying.

I'll repeat it yet again, just for you and the other daft guy... grpthink:

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE UNIONS OR THE EMPLOYEES, TO ME.

FOR ME, IT IS A MATTER OF CONVENIENCE.

You guys are whining about how rich the companies are, but what about union leaders? Do you think they're suffering in poverty?

You think you're out to save the world with unions?

They're just a very, very small part of the working world.

The problems of the American workers goes far beyond labor rights.

Your visions are far too small in scope.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : I stated a fact..if...

I stated a fact..if you don't like it, whine some more tempinsane, and see where it gets you.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Schools have...

Schools have money being thrown at them left and right by the government.

Wrong.

President Bush proposed shrinking federal spending on education by more $3 billion in his new budget proposal released Feb. 6, 2006.

The poorer the students of the district, the richer the school

Wrong again.

The $13 billion Title I program, now the major funding arm of President Bush's No Child Left Behind act, must close the loopholes if it is to ensure that school districts channel the money to needy schools, said lead author Marguerite Roza, a research assistant professor at the University of Washington's Evans School of Public Affairs.

The new research documents how current rules allow the federal funds intended for low-income schools to be shifted -- sometimes inadvertently -- to affluent schools within the same district.

Want to go for the trifecta?

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Spacemonster, I'm...

Spacemonster, I'm sorry to hear you put your convenience ahead of your fellow citizens. But not surprised.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Spacemonster said:...

Spacemonster said:

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE UNIONS OR THE EMPLOYEES, TO ME.

FOR ME, IT IS A MATTER OF CONVENIENCE.

Like I said..spacemonster only cares about his/her wallet..not the betterment of the population as a whole or the rights of union workers. Nice to see you admit it spacemonster.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Senators and The...

Senators and The Department of Labor are investigating. What does that have to do with unions?

I've worked with H1-B visas in the past when I placed software developers nationwide. Although this law firm is promoting how to get around it, most of our clients wouldn't look twice at an H1-B visa applicant. Plus, most software companies are non-union anyway. You also have american kids graduating with a BS in computer science expecting 100k salaries immediately. An H1 looks pretty good compared to the greed and arrogance.

I really don't believe that this reference is relevant to a union topic.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : What in the hell does...

What in the hell does the grocery business-Retail Clucks have to do with Bush?

It ties into the administration's anti-worker and pro-business environment they created. As Dusty clearly stated.

Did you also notice you had 10 times more posts than anyone else

The fact that you're keeping track is disturbing in itself.

Dusty, it appears you have a blog stalker.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Thanks,...

Thanks, Grpthink. I was expecting someone to challenge that nonsense. The poorest-spending-per-student states are among the poorest states in the country economically as well.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : I really don't...

I really don't believe that this reference is relevant to a union topic.

Which workers are better suited to fight things like the training businesses received on how not to hire them, individual workers or workers represented by unions?

It is relevant. Just because you can't see the connection doesn't make it not so.

most software companies are non-union anyway.

The H1-B visa program was expanded outside the high tech industry a long time ago.

You also have american kids graduating with a BS in computer science expecting 100k salaries immediately

Sure they are. *snicker*

The table is not coming out correctly, but the link dismisses your statement.

http://www.jobweb.com/Resources/Library/Salary_and_Benefits/Starting_Salary_51_01.htm

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Nope..tempinsane is...

Nope..tempinsane is just a Bush supporter evidently Grpthink..and a small minded one at that.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Spacemonster, I'm...

Spacemonster, I'm sorry to hear you put your convenience ahead of your fellow citizens. But not surprised.

Prove me wrong, random.

Send me a price list, and if you can prove to me that I can shop for cheaper at independent grocers, then I'll go.

Once upon a time, I used to shop independent... but it's far too expensive now.

And if you want to construe my frugal ways as a lack of compassion for my fellow citizens, then that's your problem.

Go ahead... drive out of your way to another place, pay higher prices... that's your call.

Good for you, but you're nobody to be preaching to people about how to live.

Live how you want.

Don't be a preacher.

How other people live should not be your concern.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : The...

The poorest-spending-per-student states are among the poorest states in the country economically as well

We've addressed that issue in several other blogs, but there's always someone willing to repeat the lie.

There's a lot of rightwingers who apparently graduated from the Josef Goebbels' school of propaganda.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Let them get a real...

Let them get a real job Murphy? Who are you to judge what a 'real job' is pray tell? Talk about elitist snobbery there..you think your better than a grocery store worker because you work in the heat, is that it? LOL.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Spacemonster,...

Spacemonster, you've done nothing but badmouth union members and leaders. You've called them "pissy", "disgruntled", "bickering", implied that they're stupid, and that they are undeserving of union representation because they're "uneducated" (and therefore disposable, or at least easily replaceable). You've said that you'll cross the line because your family's survival is in question, and implied that everyone else crossing it is as desperate as you are. But then you change your reason from a (survival) financial pressure to convenience.

And you claim you know the specific issues in this case, and accuse other of not knowing them. And somehow something has prevented you from talking about them, despite the fact that they've been mentioned specifically by Ryan, and I've continually asked people opposing unions in general and saying they'll cross the line to point out where the union's side is unreasonable.

And yet my "visions are far too small in scope".

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Maybe I can have the...

Maybe I can have the "cable guy" come over and unhook me, this is far more entertaining than The Discovery Channel or The Food Netwok. It's not quite HBOs "Taxicab Confessions" though........ meanwile... back to our regularly schedueled programming

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : most software...

most software companies are non-union anyway.

The H1-B visa program was expanded outside the high tech industry a long time ago.

YOUR Youtube link was about the Programmers Guild's involvement in proving that companies are trying to get around the H1-B laws. This is about HIGH TECH. Your story, not mine! I stayed on topic and then you try and tear what I say apart piece by piece.

You also have american kids graduating with a BS in computer science expecting 100k salaries immediately

Sure they are. *snicker*

The table is not coming out correctly, but the link dismisses your statement.

http://www.jobweb.com/Resou...

Just because a jobweb.com article shows what to expect, doesn't mean that some students don't come out thinking that they are going to make more. We worked nationwide...no companies in Bakersfield at all. Don't "dismiss" what people are capable of doing.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Mattloch, By now, I...

Mattloch,

By now, I have no choice but to conclude you have either a learning or a reading disability, and my heart goes out to you.

Once again (amazingly) you have failed to provide textual evidence that I've bashed unions.

Instead, you're trying to paraphrase the words of many of my comments in such a way that they flimsily try to say what you're claiming I'm trying to say.

So, I guess I'm going to have to go line by line for you... to help you overcome your disability. Here we go. Are you ready?

You've called the "pissy", "disgruntled", "bickering", implied that they're stupid, and that they are undeserving of union representation because they're "uneducated" (and therefore disposable, or at least easily replaceable

Okay... now the words in red are from your comment. Following me so far? I don't want you getting lost on me.

Yes, there is some pissiness flying around... on the part of not only the workers, but the companies and union as well. I DID NOT say that the workers are undeserving of union representation because they are uneducated or otherwise-- you're putting words in my mouth. I never said that. And once again, I CHALLENGE YOU to show me where I said such a thing. You're simply lying in an attempt to get a point across.

Make no mistake, though... those workers ARE easily replaceable! Need I remind you of how quickly they were replaced during the last strike?

On that note, they're disposable too.

And you know why?

Not because they're bad human beings, but because many of them don't have the college degrees to use as bargaining chips.

High school diplomas are a dime a dozen... they mean nothing.

You've said that you'll cross the line because your family's survival is in question, and implied that everyone else crossing it is as desperate as you are.

Once again, you're lying.

I never insinuated that everyone else who crosses a line is desperate.

I stated that MY reasons for crossing are:

1. Survival

2. Convenience

Now, do you get it?

Do you understand?

Look... I know what issues the workers and the unions are fighting for.

This is nothing new.

Every few years the UFCW goes through this, and usually a deal is made before a strike happens... and that will probably happen this time as well.

I'm not saying the workers don't deserve the things that they want.

All that I'm saying is,

I'm crossing the line for my own survival and convenience.

If you STILL don't understand after this, then you're a lost cause, because this is a pretty simple matter.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : "Don't be a...

"Don't be a preacher," Spacemonster preached...

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Oh, this is rich...

Oh, this is rich indeed spacemonster "Not because they're bad human beings, but because many of them don't have the college degrees to use as bargaining chips."--are you saying they replaced them with workers with college degrees? If you are..who's lying now? A college degree had nothing to do with replacing the grocery workers..nothing. It was about economics..they paid the new workers less than the old ones and provided them with less benefits.

Or is that over your head Spacemonster?

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : I'm sorry,...

I'm sorry, random, but I call it like it is.

You're preaching to people, from high atop your ivory tower.

In fact, several people on here are.

I'm not a preacher.

I'm simply defending my position, which is my right to cross the line.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : are you saying they...

are you saying they replaced them with workers with college degrees? If you are..who's lying now? A college degree had nothing to do with replacing the grocery workers..nothing. It was about economics..they paid the new workers less than the old ones and provided them with less benefits.

dusty,

quit trying to read between the lines.

This is a simple thing.

THE WORKERS... THE PEOPLE WHO WORK HERE NOW... ARE EASILY REPLACEABLE BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE COLLEGE DEGREES!!!!

Jesus, man... things really have to be spelled out for you, don't they?

You were too shallow to get something like that... even when broken down...

I am amazed by your lack of brainpower.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : YOUR Youtube link was...

YOUR Youtube link was about the Programmers Guild's involvement in proving that companies are trying to get around the H1-B laws

It doesn't mean it's limited to the high tech companies or the H1-B visa program.

The lessons can easily be expanded to other visa programs companies use to bring in workers from other countries.

Just because a jobweb.com article shows what to expect, doesn't mean that some students don't come out thinking that they are going to make more

I misread what you wrote. But I still don't believe students are coming out with such high expectations. Especially since those high expectations were dashed a long time ago. Unless you believe the students are living in a vaccum.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Every worker in every...

Every worker in every company is replaceable regardless of education. Sometimes it might be a good thing and sometimes a bad, but it's the nature of business.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Spacemonster, no one...

Spacemonster, no one said it wasn't your right to cross the line...you just can't make up your mind on why you cross it. When someone calls you on it, you launch a personal attack..its ok..we are used to your ilk doing that.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : You are the one that...

You are the one that makes no sense spacemonster. Few of the workers at grocery stores have college degrees, so what is your point? Do you think most oil rig workers have college degrees? How about cab drivers? Or the folks that work in the landscape business? What is your point to that ridiculous statement?

I am amazed at how easily you attack me when you don't like something I say..I have yet to call you stupid. Uninformed yes, but not stupid.

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : Spacemonster, each of...

Spacemonster, each of those words in quotation marks are yours, not mine. Check your [12:40] post for many of them.

None of your posts until [2:43] mention corporate "pissiness". Everything up until then attacked workers and their union reps.

Make no mistake, though... those workers ARE easily replaceable! Need I remind you of how quickly they were replaced during the last strike? Need I remind you that the "replacement" workers were actual store employees that the corporation shuffled to different stores? I've certainly mentioned the millions in fines the corporations paid because of this (and lying to the feds on SS forms to cover their butts). Nah.... I'm sure you remembered that as well, and were just testing me.....

Not because they're bad human beings, but because many of them don't have the college degrees to use as bargaining chips. Funny, I'm sure I don't need to point out to you that education level isn't the only thing that workers have to "use" against their corporate bosses. (It never was until recently, because unions represented the easily-replaceable line-workers specifically because they didn't have an education or other "chips" to bargain with.) But I will. And again, I hope you're not trying to get a degree in the social sciences, because I don't see you passing any public administration or American history classes anytime soon.

I never insinuated that everyone else who crosses a line is desperate.
[12:48] I guarantee you... you'd cross that line if it was the only way you could afford to feed your family. It's called survival.
[1:44] Once, a few years ago, when people crossed my mother who was on the line, my mother told me that she felt no resentment towards those people because she knew they had to do what they had to do in order to feed their families.

.

And yet somehow I'm still waiting for you to talk about the specific union issues, and why they're unreasonable, "pissy", etc. for wanting what they're asking for. Why do I have the feeling that I'll continue to wait while you make ad homonym attacks....?

Jun 26, 2007 at 02:06 PM : I can't make up...

I can't make up my mind why I cross the line?

SURVIVAL, CONVENIENCE!

How many times do I have to say it before you understand it?

I know why I cross the line.

And I've repeated it countless times.

Do you get it now, or does it need to be repeated more?

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Survival and...

Survival and convenience are not the same thing. I strongly doubt survival is entering into the equation. That leaves convenience, which you have put up as more important than others' concerns. You may be right--but I seriously doubt it.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : they paid the new...

they paid the new workers less than the old ones and provided them with less benefits.

Here is what is so disturbing about the anti-union zealots.

Cities with a low concentration of unionized workers also have lower rates of economic growth than cities with higher concentrations of unionized workers. The studies are conclusive. The higher wages that are paid, the healthier the local economy is.

If workers are paid less, they spend less and the overall local economy suffers because of it.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Spacemonster..first...

Spacemonster..first you said financial..it was about money and survival of your family for the first couple of pages of commments..now its about convenience..make up your little mind..which is it? You sure change gears fast there spacemonster, which is sad indeed and makes you appear..shallow and unsure of what you mean. Do I need to show you, your own words again to clarify it for you on why you appear to not know what you mean or believe?

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Need I remind you that...

Need I remind you that the "replacement" workers were actual store employees that the corporation shuffled to different stores?

I'm sure that's the "official" story, but that paints too broad of a picture. There wer MANY temporary new hires that came in to countless stores. You're trying to over-simplify things to prove a point. But it's okay to be wrong sometimes.

Funny, I'm sure I don't need to point out to you that education level isn't the only thing that workers have to "use" against their corporate bosses

What else do they have besides unions then? Many corporations don't have unions... what do you say for them?

And as for your comment about my educational abilities, you were simply trying to make a personal jab, so I'll just ignore it.

And as for you using my quotes to try and prove that I insinuated people who cross the line are all desperate, read them again. Personally, I can't see the word "desperate" in those selections. The Desperate and non-desperate alike will cross picket lines, man, and there's nothing that any amount of your crying can do about it.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : From an article on...

From an article on TomPaine:

The weakness of the American labor movement—compared to its counterparts in other affluent, democratic societies—accounts for many troublesome aspects of our society. The U.S. has the widest gap between rich and poor among democratic nations. It also has the highest poverty rate; 13 percent of all Americans, more than 37 million people, live below poverty. The pay gap between men and women is wider in the U.S. than in other affluent countries. We are the only democratic society without universal health insurance; 47 million Americans lack even basic coverage. We spend less on job training, child care, and affordable housing, and more on prisons, than these other nations. Americans work longer hours, get fewer paid vacation days, and have fewer rights on the job than workers elsewhere. Our environmental and workplace safety laws are weak and poorly-enforced.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Matt, Dusty, and...

Matt, Dusty, and Random,

You can gang up on me and disagree with me all you want,

But I would still cross the line.

And so will countless others.

You're simply going to have to deal with that.

Oh, and Dusty... I'm not allowed to have more than one reason for crossing a line?

Stop your bitching for a minute and try to imagine why ANYBODY, apart from myself, would cross a picket line.

What do you think those reasons would be?

Instead of launching self-centered ethical attacks, really try and think about it for a second.

What do you think those reasons would be?

Just give me 5.

If you're an intelligent, thoughtful person... then surely you could manage to step into the shoes of such a person long enough to create a list that is five items long.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : ...

Background: I grew up in a house of 7. As a teenager I watched my Father struggle to feed 5 children while he walked a picket line for 3 months. No one doing the negotiating, Union or Company, went without pay during that 3 months. Their families did not go without food or clothing. We did.

During the last grocery strike in Bakersfield, I watched my Daughter struggle to keep her home and feed her children while that picket line was being walked for 5 months. I did not cross the picket line during that 5 months in support of the employees. Her mortgage company did something that absolutely shocked me. They did not repossess their home, they realigned the payments to be caught up after the strike was over, with some parental help,adding a vary large rate of interest each month, but they kept their home. Now that they are just about even, everyone wants to strike again.

My Proposal: The unions and Employers have already been negotiating for 3 months with no resolve; May I add that I'll bet the end of the contract did not sneak up on everyone, they knew for 3 years it was coming. So how long have they really been talking about a new contract? It is reasonable to assume that they will not be resolving this issue anytime soon. There obviously is no urgency. Maybe they are really bad negotiators. Who qualified the people negotiating? What are the qualifications for being a Negotiator? If the employees are striking or being locked out and are not able to earn wages to support their family as a result of the negotiators failing to do their job; THEN THE NEGOTIATORS, BOTH COMPANY AND UNION, BOTH SIDES OF THE NEGOTIATING TABLE, SHOULD WORK UNPAID UNTIL THEY HAVE SETTLED THEIR DISAGREEMENTS, JUST AS ALL OF THE EMPLOYEES THEY SAY THEY SUPPORT AND GENUINELY CARE ABOUT. Maybe if a Negotiator's Mom or Dad has to make a house payment for them, they'll get the urgency via parental guidance. Just a thought!

I'd like to see some real commitment from every Employer and Union Representative deciding when and if families can earn wages. Put your own money where your true commitment is!

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : I don't care what...

I don't care what excuse you use for crossing the picket line.Spacemonster...its your right to do that. My problem is with your insipid logic that you bashed the unions and the workers within the unions. I merely called you on "spinning" your reasons and evidently I hit a nerve as did Mattloch when he called you on it as well.

If your half as intelligent as you say you are, surely you realize that financial/survival is vastly different than convenience as your excuse for crossing the picket line. We just want to know which one is accurate. It a fair question since you changed horses mid-race.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Do you think most oil...

Do you think most oil rig workers have college degrees? How about cab drivers? Or the folks that work in the landscape business?

Hell, the people who put together the cars and motorcycles we drive and the airplanes we fly in don't have college degrees.

And yet to SM, they are uneducated.

I wonder what he/she would call the Chinese workers who have no education whatsoever and who put together most of the products we buy today.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : You didn't call...

You didn't call me on anything.

The first couple of pages I talked about my first reason for crossing a line... FINANCES (survival)

And shortly thereafter, I brought up my other reason CONVENIENCE.

And if I feel like it, if I think of another reason, I'll cite that one as well.

Sorry if that doesn't mesh well with you.

But you are right about one thing:

It's MY choice.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Did someone die and...

Did someone die and put you in charge of judging who works a 'real job' murphy? If they did, I didn't get the memo and I think your not in a position to judge who works a 'real job' and who doesn't. Thats a ridiculous phrase for an individual to mutter..or type..it makes you appear as nothing more than a snob that thinks they are better than everyone else that works for a living, based merely on the fact that you think your better and therefore able to judge everyone else.

Unless and until you can prove otherwise you are in no position to judge who has a 'real job' dude.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Survival and...

Survival and convenience are not the same thing

As a matter of fact, they are polar opposites.

Psychologists have studied this for decades.

http://www.aircav.com/survival/asch02/asch02.html

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Let us know when you...

Let us know when you get 'round to "it makes me feel superior to the grocery workers" as a reason for crossing the picket line. I suspect we'll be close to the truth at that point.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : And once again, I...

And once again,

I didn't bash the unions.

It is because of the union that my mother will be able to retire this year.

And her retirement is a good one.

Thanks to the unions.

HOWEVER, I do happen to believe that the workers shouldn't complain as much as they do, because they've pretty much got it made, without even having a degree.

Who can logically argue that?

When someone can start out at a grocery store at $15 an hour, without a college degree, that's pretty remarkable.

They should be grateful, union or no union.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Spacemonster, there...

Spacemonster, there were many "scabs" that worked during the last strike. And as for my "broad" story, it cost Ralph's alone $70 million. I'll agree that that doesn't even begin to cover the violations the grocery companies used in 2003, but it's a start. Billions in profits realized last year, and the corporations don't want to share any with their employees. I guess corporate responsibility ends at the shareholders, eh? I hope your mother isn't reading this.....

Workers historically covered by unions didn't have college degrees (as you point out, but seem to miss the point of). It is precisely because the workers didn't have the "chip" of a degree that unions arose originally. Did the AFL cover those with college degrees? The CIO? The Auto Workers union? But go ahead and miss that historical fact again and again, I'm still getting a kick out of your ignorance. Or is it obfuscation? "Insult" or not, it seems to be your defining trait.

Still waiting to hear how the grocery worker's demands are unreasonable, or how it would cause irreparable harm to the corporations (or to their bottom line, or your prices) to treat their employees better........

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Your a person that...

Your a person that makes things up as you go along spacemonster. You also can't figure out what the difference is between financial/survival and convenient. But I don't give a rat's ass why you cross picket lines, I just know you think its ok to change your reasons as you go along. It makes you look ridiculous spacemonster and I am sorry if that doesn't 'mesh' well with you. Keep backpedaling..its hysterical.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Grpthink: You're...

Grpthink:

You're hilarious!

I don't give a crap what psychologists say!

You obviously need an explanation, so here we go again:

1. Survival-- for those of us who barely squeak by on our paychecks, we have to go where the lowest prices are. And if I have to cross a picket line to get to those low-priced items, I'm going to do it. I'm glad that you have enough money to go wherever you can-- good for you! But don't go acting like you're better than everyone else because of it, because you're not.

2. Convenience-- I live about 3 blocks away from an Albertsons. If I were to take that grocery store out of my equation, I'd be driving 10 miles to get to the next grocery store. It is more CONVENIENT for me to go to the Albertson's.

You're hilarious... trying to bring psychologists into this.

You're over-thinking things.

Am I the only one who sees how simple all of this really is? I'm starting to feel like it.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Once again your...

Once again your uninformed spacemonster: When someone can start out at a grocery store at $15 an hour, without a college degree, that's pretty remarkable.- the workers hired after the strike did not start out anywhere near 15 bucks an hour. They also had to wait a year to get health insurance. But don't let the facts get in the way of your rant.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : DUSTY, I WAS TALKING...

DUSTY,

I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE CURRENT WORKERS.... NOT REPLACEMENT WORKERS!!!!!!

I WAS TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY SHOULD BE CONTENT!!!!!!!!

You really have a difficult time following things, don't you?

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : random, I'm not...

random,

I'm not better than grocery store workers.

just smart enough to NOT work somewhere that a labor dispute could potentially put me out of work.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Your the tool that...

Your the tool that can't tell the difference between convenience and survival dude..not me. You also did not specify you were talking about the old workers..we don't read minds here. The NEW, permanent workers hired after the strike did NOT make anywhere near 15 bucks an hour. They are CURRENT workers too..try to stay with us here spacemonster..I know its hard.

Your talking about them being content? And then say you aren't bashing them? Amazing. The old workers didn't get the shaft, the NEW workers hired under the NEW contract did. Do you even know what the issues are? Ryan laid them out..did you bother to read them? It doesn't seem likely based on your last comment.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : look, dusty... I lay...

look, dusty...

I lay down my sword.

we disagree, and who cares?

you're not changing me, I'm not changing you... and who cares.

You choose to read what you want to read into my comments.

have fun!

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Oh I have had...

Oh I have had fun..showing you for what you are spacemonster. Either your too illiterate to say clearly what you mean or you just make it up as you go along. I really don't care which.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Does it make you feel...

Does it make you feel better, to get one last dig in?

Are you 12 years old, or just read that way?

I was perfectly content to have a peaceful truce, but you just won't have it.

You're staggeringly egotistical.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : I don't give a...

I don't give a crap what psychologists say!

It's obvious you don't care about anything that has science involved.

Just as you dismissed a study to the president of the United States as "flimsy and weak".

The fact is, you claimed that the reason why you cross picket lines is because of survival and convenience, which is a lie since survival and convenience are mutually exclusive.

for those of us who barely squeak by on our paychecks, we have to go where the lowest prices are

It is more CONVENIENT for me to go to the Albertson's.

There's a disconnect here. If you do some checking around, you'll find Albertson's prices are higher than every other large grocery store chain in town.

If you were seriously concerned about your survival, Albertson's would be the last place you'd shop.

You're obviously more concerned with convenience.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : murphy, dusty thinks...

murphy,

dusty thinks he/she is the know-all, be-all.

you're not allowed to an opinion... only the almighty dusty is allowed an opinion.

and don't forget to bow before his comments.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Grpthink: Consider...

Grpthink:

Consider yourself and your astronomically absurd attempts at debating hereby ignored.

you're a foolish little man/ woman/ thing.

Jun 26, 2007 at 03:06 PM : Still waiting for:...

Still waiting for:

-a historical discussion of those traditionally covered by unions (non-educated)

-the things that the grocery workers' union is asking for, and why they're being "pissy", unreasonable, etc.

-the violations committed by the grocery companies in 2003, and why they were acceptable, or even valid.

Come on, spacemonster. What's the matter? Inconvenient for you to address the issues here? It's much more fun to bash people, isn't it.

Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06 PM : Consider yourself and...

Consider yourself and your astronomically absurd attempts at debating hereby ignored.

Ah, the last act of a scoundrel.

you're a foolish little man/ woman/ thing

I guess you weren't around when Jason said personal attacks wouldn't be tolerated.

Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06 PM : Murphy..you made an...

Murphy..you made an ignorant statement which said you know who has a 'real job'. Not my fault..but feel free to blame me for it if it makes you feel better. No skin off my back.

And you spacemonster are incredibly uninformed regarding me,what I stand for, what I do and how I live. But if you feel better calling me a 12 year old go for it pal...your the one that looks like a pitiful tool at this point by resorting to ad hominem attacks on those you disagree with.

Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06 PM : Still waiting for You...

Still waiting for

You should be given a medal for all the attempts you've made on getting her to debate those issues.

It's much more fun to bash people, isn't it.

Or dismiss scientific studies, 100 years of psychology and show how not to attempt logic and reasoning.

Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06 PM : Grow up murphy. I took...

Grow up murphy. I took issue with your pompous comment about people getting 'real jobs'. That is a comment from a simple-minded fool with no basis in fact..talk about ego..your something else with a comment like that.

Also..with all the medication I take, I don't drink..but feel free to believe your own trumped up bs.

Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06 PM : I see we have a union...

I see we have a union leader making posts here. I have belonged to several big unions, (IAofM, RR clerks, Oil workers) and been in some long strikes. Unions can only grow today if they cause troubles between bus and workers. Their main aim is to cause distrust. In a world of supply and demand, the one needed the most will win. In this case the worker will lose. The stores are nation wide and will back the local stores to the hilt. What they lose here will be made uo elsewhere. Where is the backing of the worker?

Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06 PM : Being a checker gives...

Being a checker gives you the right to determine who has a 'real job' murphy? I fail to see how it does, yet you call that 'throwing rocks"? Sorry bout that..but your the one that made the pompous, egotistical comment..not me.

Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06 PM : Like I said GrpThink,...

Like I said GrpThink, I'm just getting a kick out of their replies....... I'm not trying to "bash" them, or "gang up" on them (hell, I'm not even trying to change their mind), just ask honest questions to figure out their reasoning for crossing the lines. Others haven't been as forthcoming, or willing to talk about their reasoning (or perhaps they're just honest about their reasons), so I've tried to be as patient as possible. Just like people who defend a certain Administration (who-shall-remain-nameless, lest I be accused of bringing in someone/thing just to bash them), I'd like to question the "why", because I just can't see a single good reason to. Not for lack of trying or imagination, I'm just stumped. And like many other discussions, I can't seem to get a straight answer from anybody on the "other" side.....

I don't "hate". If anything, I feel sorry for them, trying to defend the indefensible. But unfortunately spacemonster is following a well-recognized and well-traveled path of obfuscation, ad homonym attacks, logical fallacies (of almost every stripe), misleading statements, demands of evidence (without reciprocation), and non-sequiturs. I was hoping that they would rise above that rutted road. I'll continue to give them every opportunity to prove me wrong.

Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06 PM : I have only rarely...

I have only rarely shopped at these stores since the first strike anyway, so it's no big deal if they strike again. Those stores are overpriced and the quality isn't all that much better.

What really gets me about Vons is how different their stores are depending on what area they're in. Just go to a vons in Inglewood (if you aren't too scared to go) and compare it to the one in the marketplace. It's truly shocking and shameful.

Jun 26, 2007 at 04:06 PM : Bashing seems to be...

Bashing seems to be your forte' murphy..

Jun 26, 2007 at 05:06 PM : What really gets me...

What really gets me about Vons is how different their stores are depending on what area they're in.

I feel that way about Wal-Mart. I live in Fresno and see the discrepancies. The ones in Clovis, the nicer side of town, has smaller lines, lower prices and better customer service, while the one in South Fresno is crap.

Jun 26, 2007 at 05:06 PM : I will not cross the...

I will not cross the picket line at the groceries and didn't last time either. If it ever comes to it, I'd hope for the same support at my workplace.

I was hoping the Californian would delineate the workers' demands and union positions a little better. Today's two articles said nothing.

Jun 26, 2007 at 05:06 PM : "Would you...

"Would you support a grocery strike? "

Short answer = NOPE.........

Jun 26, 2007 at 06:06 PM : Spacemonster are you...

Spacemonster are you just figuring out out if ole dusty and her liberal crowd cannot have the last word they will vilify you, The best thing to do is just to agree-huhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhu.

Look at he other blogs-all the same topic just to start an argument, I'm beginning to wonder if the BC gets her to write this way so we will stay tuned and..................

Jun 26, 2007 at 06:06 PM : I believe in a fair...

I believe in a fair wage for a fair job. It seems to me that the grocery store workers are only doing what the rest of us would do! Demand a fair amount of pay for their jobs. During the last strike, I chose to NOT cross a picket line and it really opened my eyes as to the amount of money I was throwing away to the major stores, like Vons and Albertson's. I began shopping weekly at Costco and would go to FoodMaxx, SaveMart or my favorite - Green Frog Market for the extras in between - or specialty items. I have rarely returned to Vons or Albertson's.....since the last resolution of the strike. Wake up and smell the coffee brewing....even Costco, Green Frog and Winco are making money - and at least the first two are Union represented and they provide a decent living for their employees!

Honestly, I wish that all of the employees represented by Unions could strike (I am referring to Law Enforcement in Kern County) when they are dissatisfied with their contracts or the lack thereof! However, because you are a public servant and have taken an oath to serve and protect, you are not allowed to strike for fear of putting the general public in harms way....so, instead, your family can starve and you continue to work almost a year without a contract! Oh yes, then you are supposed to jump for joy when you get a stupid 3% raise for 3 more years???

Jun 26, 2007 at 07:06 PM : I didn't cross...

I didn't cross the line last time and I won't this time either. It's the only grocer in Taft, except for Save-a-Lot which doesn't offer alot of good tasting stuff. It wasn't that big a deal to throw an ice chest in the truck and drive to Bako. I think there are too few decent paying jobs around and I won't be a part of making that number less. I kinda like the freindliness and helpful attitudes at this Albertson's. When I want sullen and rude, I'll go to the quickie mart.

Jun 26, 2007 at 07:06 PM : "Would you...

"Would you support a grocery strike? "

Since I don't shop at any of those stores (although I do have a cousin in management) my answer is a resounding yes, I support the strike. I don't know the particulars but if they can make a strong statement to management that they are unhappy with wages and benefits then I'm all for it. I think there are instances when unions have outlived their usefulness (auto industry) but I think it's great leverage for certain industries (grocery stores, retail, hospitality). If corporations feel they can easily replace "uneducated" labor, unions and strikes can discourage this practice, thus empowering workers.

Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06 PM : I WILL CROSS THE LINE...

I WILL CROSS THE LINE AND PURCHASE MORE THAN NORMAL. These people want medical, dental and retirement, how many workers get that package VERY FEW those days are gone. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE A HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA TO WORK AT A GROCERY STORE. What makes these people so special they have been on strike before and will again they just want to much for what they do.some are no better than village idiots. As for their union they just need to go away they are breaking this country. I hope they fire every last one of them and hopefully they will NOT receive any type of benefits, no unemployment NOTHING!!! I will cross and if I'm hassled in any way I will call the police and file charges!!

Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06 PM : I'll cross, but...

I'll cross, but not out of spite. Vons is just two minutes around the corner from my house, my mini van a/c doesn't work very well, so it's just easier on my kids and me to shop there. I never go anywhere else, oh how I dread the hot weather and traffic.

During the last strike, I was living in San Diego. I tried to support the workers by not shopping there, but my shopping experience at other places were not that great, like FoodMax, it wasn't very clean in there. Eventually I did cross the Vons picket line, but the strike was slowing down by then, so crossing it wasn't all that bad. I think we were all glad when the strike was over.

I only like to shop at Vons. I've been going there since age 7, thirty years now, so hard to break a (what- shopping?) habit. I sympathize with the workers, hope things work out and hope the picketing workers at my local store will overlook the fact that I will continue to shop at Vons.

Jul 31, 2007 at 01:07 PM : Wow it seems alot of...

Wow it seems alot of people do not like unions. While I have never been a member of a union, and I do believe the union like any business has its own self-interests ie. keeping members happy so they can continue to pay union dues, I think that the retail workers have a right to fight for better pay and benefits. I feel that there is a big stigma that retail workers are meaningless and do not deserve much, which is ludicrous considering that retail sales contribute to a substantial chunk of the economy. These workers help to run stores that provide items that are needed for daily living; food, clothing, personal hygiene products etc. Many retail giants gross huge annual profits while many of their workers receive little pay and next to nothing in benefits, if any at all. As far as them being concerned.... "Do they give a crap about what kind of benefits you and I or anybody else gets at our jobs? Of course not. So they've got a personal problem. waaah" I think many people who are underpaid and overworked do care about other workers who are overpaid and overworked. I believe that if some of these same workers were put in a situation where there were other workers on strike, they would not cross the picket line, because they can sympathize.

If I were in that area the only way I would cross the picket line would be if I had a hungry screaming baby at home who needed some formula, diapers, or some other necessity and I had no means of transportation to go to another store.

I realize there are exceptions to the rule and this is just my humble opinion. wasaski-myjourney.blogspot.com

Jan 26, 2008 at 07:01 AM : I could care less that...

I could care less that they have to pay more for health insurance. I have to pay at work and it's part of life. This world is not a free ride.I will cross their stupid lines.

Jan 26, 2008 at 08:01 AM : Hey,...

Hey, soltini.

Do you support universal health care. Or are you in favor of strapping everyone to the ship railing, before it slips to the bottom of the sea.

By the way. The strike was averted months ago. The Union won.. Go ahead and cross the lines. You have my permission.

Support the Law enforcement, support firemen, support teachers, support the union...

Jan 26, 2008 at 11:01 AM : Let em walk. It...

Let em walk. It won't change my shopping habits in the least. I have to drive to the market and with fuel prices as high as they are, I'm going to the nearest one. Because I'm trying to be environmentally conscious, I've purchased green bags, which will probably last about three to six months, and add that the rising cost of groceries, I can't afford their strike!

Jan 26, 2008 at 11:01 AM : I always buy my meat...

I always buy my meat at Von's. It's better than anywhere else. Once in a while I will buy something else but not often. It looks like Management is trying to compromise but to the union "compromise" means "give us everything we want". I will walk on through any picket line for this reason.

Jan 26, 2008 at 09:01 PM : I wonder when the...

I wonder when the union workers will wake up and realize that they are working for the union rather than the reverse?

Jan 27, 2008 at 11:01 AM : And the fire...

And the fire department unions are the worst!

Jan 27, 2008 at 11:01 AM : So why don't...

So why don't employers do that? Doesn't that kind of blow your hypothesis out of the water? Seems to me most employers pay as little as they can get away with *AND* fight unions. Especially corporate employers.

I'm all for employee-owned companies (as touted in the classic "Up the Organization" by Robert Townshend). Make the employees the owners through stock options, etc.

Jan 27, 2008 at 12:01 PM : I might not like...

I might not like it--but then my employees might not like some of the things I might do.

It seems to me that any business which is incorporated ought not to be able to object to union representation for its workers. Incorporation basically does for a company what unions do for employees.

It does not seem mere coincidence to me that the general decline in unionized workplaces in the US has been accompanied by a decline in the middle class.

Jan 27, 2008 at 12:01 PM : True RF~like locking...

True RF~like locking those doors and thereby murdering your workers in a factory fire...granted a long time ago,but it happened. I belonged to the home health workers union,and would join again if that was my line of work~for us they got a decent wage,an employer of record and were working on health benefits,all well worth my membership dues. When some one says all unions are good or all unions are bad,they are deluding themselves...like anything else some are ,some are not. Woodales meat rocks!

Jan 27, 2008 at 12:01 PM : Hey,...

Hey,

The Grocery Union Won!!! 7 Months ago!!!!!

Grocery truce in Southern California: Will it migrate to Sacramento, Bay Area?

By Dale Kasler - Bee Staff Writer
Published 5:03 pm PDT Wednesday, July 18, 2007

The labor peace that's descended on Southern California's contentious supermarket industry could spread to Northern California as well.

After seven months of often difficult negotiations, Southern California's big grocery chains reached a tentative agreement late Tuesday on a four-year contract with the union representing 65,000 employees, avoiding a repeat of the disastrous strike of 2003-04.

Although details weren't released, a labor analyst said the contract appears to reverse some of the concessions the union made in the last walkout.

The analyst, Kent Wong of UCLA's Center for Labor Research and Education, said Tuesday's settlement could set the tone for contract negotiations later this year in Sacramento and the Bay Area.

Mainstream grocers seem to be holding their own against low-cost rivals like Wal-Mart Stores Inc. and have become "less strident" about cutting labor costs than they were during the last contract negotiations, he said.

"A chance of a Northern California walkout is somewhat less likely" because of the pattern set in Southern California, said Burt Flickinger III, an independent retail consultant from New York.

But a peaceful settlement isn't guaranteed. Ron Lind, head of the United Food and Commercial Workers in San Jose, said the recent shakeout in the industry means there's only one grocery chain serving both Southern and Northern California: Safeway Inc. Three years ago, a number of supermarket chains covered both territories.

And Flickinger said low-cost competitors like Wal-Mart appear to have made greater inroads in Northern California than in Southern California. That could prompt grocers in Sacramento and the Bay Area to take a tougher line on negotiations, he said.

Jacques Loveall, president of the UFCW local in Roseville, said grocery workers are entitled to "substantial gains in their contract."

Current Sacramento-area contracts expire in October (for Raley's, Safeway Inc. and Save Mart Supermarkets) and December (for Raley's Bel Air subsidiary). Bay Area contracts expire in December.

The Southern California grocers -- Safeway's Vons, Supervalu Inc.'s Albertsons and Kroger Co.'s Ralphs Grocery -- confirmed that a settlement was reached but wouldn't discuss details. Employees will vote Sunday on the tentative contract.

Jan 27, 2008 at 12:01 PM : Sage, the Triangle...

Sage, the Triangle Shirtwaist fire was a long time ago, granted. But Wal-Mart has been locking its employees in as recently as a few years ago.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/18/national/18WALM.html?ex=1389762000&en=659ee9a0025b35de&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND

Of course, they're not unionized...

Jan 27, 2008 at 02:01 PM : yes i would support a...

yes i would support a strike and honor their picket line. As a fellow Union Member i will support my Brother in Labor.

Jan 27, 2008 at 02:01 PM : I'm surprised...

I'm surprised this blog is still up. Didn't Schuster leave the Californian some months back?

Jan 27, 2008 at 04:01 PM : Who needs a union to...

Who needs a union to do what the police can do? Wrongfully imprisoning people is a crime. Those employees should have called the authorities, not the management.

Jan 27, 2008 at 05:01 PM : Depends on who owns...

Depends on who owns the police, I guess.

Jan 27, 2008 at 05:01 PM : And how concerned you...

And how concerned you are that you will still have a job,after calling the police on your employer.

Jan 27, 2008 at 06:01 PM : gube has a ...

gube has a brother in labor

if handled properly, he should never have to work again

Jan 27, 2008 at 07:01 PM : Chica. Full of crap...

Chica. Full of crap as usual. The Fire Department Unions are staffed by WORKING FIREFIGHTERS, not professional Union organizers and bosses. They work with Department Management to make the job more safe (Years ago in was the second most dangerous job behind Longshoremen) and to make Firefighting more efficient and yes, to get a proper wage.. Try not to speak of things you know absolutely nothing about.

Jan 27, 2008 at 07:01 PM : Very telling is...

Very telling is Chica's comment about Fire Dept Unions.

It comes from either his/her feelings that his/her union office holding experiences were vastly inferior to those effected by those of the Fire Dept's union management,

He/she was a general member of a union manifesting far less political acumen over the years than Fire, a fact which still sticks in his/her craw..................

Either way it is quite transparent upon even the most cursory perusal.......

Jan 27, 2008 at 09:01 PM : Nope. As usual you are...

Nope. As usual you are WRONG on both accounts. Now get back to your coloring books mejo.

Jan 27, 2008 at 09:01 PM : "The Fire...

"The Fire Department Unions are staffed by WORKING FIREFIGHTERS, not professional Union organizers and bosses."

It's not surprising that the sarcasm was lost on the former hose dragger (something that was targeted at murphies generalization). Tell me something Roy, did the fire dept. ever get better medical training? I know there is a former fire chief (R.I.P.) whose daughter can't walk anymore because of ST. 53's negligence.

Jan 28, 2008 at 10:01 AM : Roy's silence is...

Roy's silence is deafening.

Jan 28, 2008 at 10:01 AM : Well why not be a bit...

Well why not be a bit more specific if you want Roy to respond. What you have thrown out sounds like some rumor you are shooting accross his bow as though it is a fact just to get a reaction.

Who was the Chief?

What were the exact circumstances?

Was anyone held liable?

When did this take place?

I expect this kind of stuff from you to me but why to Roy? Do you dislike all firemen?

Do you have ANY facts of the case to present?

It might be interesting. It would be fair to present some facts if nothing else however.

Jan 28, 2008 at 12:01 PM : I was there when it...

I was there when it happened. That is just but one example of fire department negligence I witnessed. This particular incident happend in 1994. No I don't dislike all firemen, just those who drive the white vehicles in this county.