Why God Wont Answer Amputee Prayers - THE GRUMPY SKEPTIC - thegrumpyskeptic's Blog - Bakersfield.com

Jul 18, 2008 at 03:07 AM : You might want to cite...

You might want to cite the source for this, just in case.

But, just the same...it's an excellent question with no really convincing answer. If god is benevolent and loving, then there should be no amputees in the first place. If God is all-powerful, then he should be able to heal injuries or replace a missing limb. If prayer works and God listens, then prayer should also lead to a re-growth of the missing limb. But, I don't even think it's necessary to go this far. A study published in the Lancet found that not only does intercessory prayer fail to heal someone, but actually may do harm to the person who knows that intercessory prayer is being undertaken on his/her behalf. For anyone wishing to read the full study and offer a critique or informed opinion, you will find it here.

Volume 366, Issue 9481, 16 July 2005-22 July 2005, Pages 211-217 (The Lancet)

On a personal note, I've always been curious as to why a religion (or deity) would advocate prayer as opposed to actually doing someting to help the sick individual? Compassion is a wonderful thing and, for some, prayer is the manner in which they bestow that compassion upon you. But, it's not as good as going to that person's bedside and saying, "What can I do to help?" or having a conversation with the person who's ill. This journal post, written by a Christian who is fighting cancer, is thought provoking. If you don't want to hear me (as an atheist) talk about prayer, then that's fine. You should, however, listen to your fellow believers. I'll post a brief snippet from her blog...

"So this is a message for the several dozen/hundred Christians who wrote me off, to all my ex-friends and relatives in blood only who are in a hurry on their way to church (or a coffee house, which seems a North American equivilent). I am the closest you may ever meet on earth of Jesus the Christ, the person you follow. No, not because I am wise, or immortal but because I have asked, like Jesus, “Can you not BE with me for a time” while I was scared, and while in or facing pain. And if you are waiting for God to do something, passing the buck with a “we’re praying and hoping for a miracle” I will tell you. Miracles happen to me all the time, but YOU are not part of them, prayers are answered all the time, but YOU are not part of them. In fact, it seems you are part of nothing."

Jul 18, 2008 at 08:07 AM : Again, typical...

Again, typical atheists writing off what they don't understand. You have my pity and my prayers.

Only an idiot would not seek medical help for an illness. Prayer is the first thing I do, as I go to the doctor. Medicine is a gift from God and should be utilized. When someone is sick, you should visit them. You offer your service to them. However, when you can't be with someone, it is good to pray for them. How does it hurt?

Whomever this supposed Christian blog poster is (firewalled for me) she sounds very bitter. When Mrs. Witbee was fighting cancer, she welcomed all prayers. We also entertained throngs of supporters from our church who brought us dinner during her chemo, visited us daily (calling first) and brought her spiritual books and gifts to lift her spirits. Her illness brought our whole family closer to God. When I think of someone handling an illness with dignity, grace and Christian ethic, I think of her. And when I thank God for her recovery, I thank Him for the good people at the CBCC.

Jul 18, 2008 at 09:07 AM : Actually I've...

Actually I've heard of that study that people who where prayed over actually did worse, and we used it as a joke, you know the whole "don't pray for me, or I'll die" made it's rounds. WOW and holy toledo I've not seen that website or I would have cited it as my source, that's awesome!! Someone already thought of that, in in any case, Witbee still hasn't given me an answer as to why god doesn't heal amputees, just dodged the question and made a straw man argument. so I welcome any arguments, as far as what witbee said

Only an idiot would not seek medical help for an illness

Just F.Y.I. there are tons of "Idiots"who do not seek medical help, and defenseless children who sometimes don't have a choice. So i point you to www.whatstheharm.net again those are things for another blog

Jul 18, 2008 at 09:07 AM : Witbee still...

Witbee still hasn't given me an answer as to why god doesn't heal amputees,

I'm not God. How could I possibly give you an answer? It would be conjecture. I tell you what, though, I'll ask Him when/if I see Him.

It's like asking me why people with no lives feel better about themselves by going on message boards and posting junk aimed at hurting others by making lite of their heart-felt beliefs. How do I know what motivates them?

Jul 18, 2008 at 10:07 AM : "It's...

"It's like asking me why people with no lives feel better about themselves by going on message boards and posting junk aimed at hurting others by making lite of their heart-felt beliefs."

I agree with you, and making fun of others' heart-felt beliefs is contrary to my principles. I will not insult Christianity or atheism.

Jul 18, 2008 at 10:07 AM : Intercessory prayer...

Intercessory prayer accomplishes nothing. This has been proven in independent study after independent study. I touch on this subject on the home page of my web site:

Participating in intercessory prayer is a colossal waste of time also; the 2005 Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) concluded that intercessory prayer has no effect on a person's recovery - from substance abuse, disease, or infirmity - whatsoever. The last thing that anyone needs in medicine is some wacky cult ministry getting in the way of sound medical practices.

Jul 18, 2008 at 11:07 AM : I can't speak for...

I can't speak for others when I prayed for others (laying on of hands) all have been healed no I have never layed hands on an amputee I was never called too

While I was in the grace of God not one of my family was sick after I prayed for them Sometimes my wife with me

With faith the size of a mustard seed Mountains can be moved

Because I have a falling out with God ( not that I'm not a believer ) but because of something called Hard Head and Stupid

I haven't prayed or layed hands on anyone for years

The gifts and callings of God are without Repentance ( once they are given they are never until death are they removed )

Ron

Jul 18, 2008 at 02:07 PM : well to remark on...

well to remark on witbee, well of course you can't answer. When I say that god is illogical and imaginary I'm sorry you believe that "I'm making fun of your beliefs" but the ridiculous must be ridiculed. I'll point you to say all the delightful "bush isms" that our great commander in chief makes. or Jones Star not knowing if the world is round or flat. To answer to Apollo dawn, I'm just trying to make sense of this "GOD" as I stated above if something is just illogical why can't I point out how illogical that is? I'm just wondering why in the history of humanity no amputee has been healed. well Mr. allred when you come "back to grace" or find someone who is, why don't we do a few experiments, lets have him or you lay hands of someone dying of say decapitation, and see how the healing goes. In fact why don't we go to the sub acute unit in a hospital and see how many people stop being vegetables and are healed, let me know and I would love to set a unbiased controlled experiment.

Jul 18, 2008 at 09:07 PM : Whomever...

Whomever this supposed Christian blog poster is (firewalled for me) she sounds very bitter.

I find it amazing and telling that you would write-off a young woman's feelings on her cancer (and her experience) as "bitter' without being able to read the whole thing. You're exceedingly presumptuous.

Well, if you'd taken the time to read the blog I linked to before trashing the girl and her experience, then you might see an example of how prayer hurts. What's funny is that two of her points are exactly those you've made...so, does that make you bitter? If only idiots would avoid medical help in favor of prayer, then there are many idiots.

I'm not God. How could I possibly give you an answer? It would be conjecture. I tell you what, though, I'll ask Him when/if I see Him.

I don't know. Christians don't seem to have a problem defining God as 'good', 'vengeful', 'angry', or 'just'. Why is it that you can define God and his desires/abilities/purposes when it suits you, but claim ignorance to said god's ways or intentions now?

Oh! You mean like slamming a twenty three year old female cancer patient without reading her experience? Yeah. I hate people like that, too. And, if posting here is a sign that a person has no life, then you may want to take up a hobby. This stuff isn't junk. But, you wouldn't know that because you automatically place anything remotely questioning, even when done by a fellow- Christian, into a pile to be filed in the round bin. You've aimed an arrow at her disappointment over the heart-felt belief that her God and her family/friends would help her in her time of need. What motivated you?

I agree with you, and making fun of others' heart-felt beliefs is contrary to my principles. I will not insult Christianity or atheism.

Who's making fun of other's beliefs? I posted a link to a study about prayer. My second link was to a young lady in great pain, suffering because she feels prayer gave her friends and families an out. That's not making fun. If you're referring to the website from which the OP took the post from, then I agree that it's taken sarcasm to a new level. But, the point is still valid.

Jul 19, 2008 at 07:07 AM : grumpy &n...

grumpy faith on both sides my faith alone will not heal you the healing faith I had seem to be enough for my famliy if any of my family wasn't healed of course they would have been taken to the doctor I always looked at healing as the 1st grade the more fasting and prayer the stronger I became the more my faith was built I was never able to go out and pray for those in mental hospitals I always felt that calling along with childern the suffering they go though with cancer but it takes so much fighting with the world for me I was never able to fill that burden in me and I'm ashamed for not being stronger

I have no problems with all the great Healings I've read about Paul and Jesus has such Healing Faith ( even rasied the dead )

Jul 19, 2008 at 07:07 AM : "Who's...

"Who's making fun of other's beliefs? I posted a link to a study about prayer. My second link was to a young lady in great pain, suffering because she feels prayer gave her friends and families an out. That's not making fun. If you're referring to the website from which the OP took the post from, then I agree that it's taken sarcasm to a new level. But, the point is still valid."

I have not seen you make fun of other people's beliefs. I was thinking mostly of the website. I am sorry if you felt that you were the object of my comment, though seeing the context, I can understand why it might have looked that way.

I still believe that it is wrong to go out of one's way to belittle prayer itself. I understand what you are saying about using prayer as a substitute for direct helpful action, but many religious and spiritual people consider prayer to be more than "God, please do this."

Prayer, religion, or spirituality can be a source of, and a stimulus for, a person's good, caring, or charitable works. A spiritual framework can reinforce a person's inclination to do good. Prayer becomes not a substitute for action, but an inspiration to action. I am not up on medical history, but it is very possible that prayer may have been part of medical pioneers' inspiration to find better procedures for reconnecting severed body parts and inventing prostheses.

I am not, by any means, saying that faith has a monopoly on benevolence. Some people are at their most benevolent when they are unobstructed by spiritual considerations or speculations. For them, atheism or agnosticism is the best path, and the Higher Power as I see it would agree.

But belittling what other people hold near and dear - and I am not saying that you are doing it - is something that I believe is very wrong.

Jul 19, 2008 at 08:07 AM : God answers prayer...

God answers prayer about half the time in situations where random chance gives a 50/50 probability of a good result.

God *IS* random chance, nothing more.

Jul 19, 2008 at 08:07 AM : Hello Random ...

Hello Random

Jul 19, 2008 at 08:07 AM : Hi, Ron.

Hi, Ron.

Jul 20, 2008 at 01:07 AM : I have not...

Thank you for the clarification, Apollo. Like you, I think the website gets carried away. I think it would be more useful and thought provoking if the promoters/owners would keep the focus on the original point: How can God be all powerful and benevolent, yet never answer the prayer of an amputee.

...I'll admit that I've belittled prayer. For that, I offer you an apology. What the girl (in the blog I linked to) said is, unfortunately, backed up by a lot of experience. It got me very riled up. No one should suffer alone and it's the appeal to prayer that is allowing the people in her life to put her on the rear burner.

Prayer, religion, or spirituality can be a source of, and a stimulus for, a person's good, caring, or charitable works.

Why do people need a religious catalyst to "do good" or care? If it is, as some here say, that a deities spirit resides in all of us, even without our consent or belief, then would that not be enough? I'm not saying you're saying it HAS to be dressed up in prayer or religion, but that's often the only means through which people DO help and I find that very sad.

A spiritual framework can reinforce a person's inclination to do good. Prayer becomes not a substitute for action, but an inspiration to action. I am not up on medical history, but it is very possible that prayer may have been part of medical pioneers' inspiration to find better procedures for reconnecting severed body parts and inventing prostheses.

I'll respectfully disagree with you. Many people do not see prayer as an inspiration to act. How do we know this? From the examples this girl has shared and the experience of people I've spoken with in my volunteer work. It's very easy to say "I'll pray for you.", but there's no follow-up. One, some will say that and keep on walking by with no intention to prayer. Two, if you can take the time to offer prayers to a deity, then you can take the time to pick up a phone and check-in with the person you're praying for. People need other people. I am up on my medical history. :) Prayer likely had nothing to do with the process of finding better cures since it was so often employed as an excuse to let some one die or continue bad medicine (like bleeding people to get rid of their demons or telling a birthing mother that God wants her to remain in pain). Not to mention the people who see prayer as a pause button on the disease process. They end up seeking out medical help too late. Inspiration can come from many sources...prayer may be one of them. But, I would argue that there are far more prevalent inspirations than prayer.

Jul 20, 2008 at 09:07 AM : "Why do...

"Why do people need a religious catalyst to "do good" or care? If it is, as some here say, that a deities spirit resides in all of us, even without our consent or belief, then would that not be enough?"

The minds of some people are just wired that way. I accept that you have difficulty understanding why some people benefit from religious catalysts, but maybe you don't need to understand them. I would compare, respectfully, this with the inability of some religious people to understand how someone could possibly behave altruistically without belief in a personally involved Deity.

"Many people do not see prayer as an inspiration to act. How do we know this? From the examples this girl has shared and the experience of people I've spoken with in my volunteer work. It's very easy to say "I'll pray for you.", but there's no follow-up."

I agree that it sometimes becomes a conscience-satisfying substitute for direct action. That is hardly a universally accurate characterization of prayer, however.

In my case, I do not practice passive prayer as traditional mainstream religions present it, a practice that submits a request and awaits a Divine answer. I practice Magick, which is a combination of the Pagan's or magician's imparted will with the spiritual realm. (If I remember correctly, you believe in no such thing, but please bear with me.) Magick is an active cousin of prayer.

What it does for me is reinforce the best sides of me and mitigate the worst sides of me. It keeps kindness, goodwill and benevolence foremost in my mind. Magick initiates a process (you can attribute it to psychology if you wish, it does not hurt me) that leads me to more direct acts of charity. You obviously do better without surrounding yourself with abstractions of a metaphysical realm. That's OK.

You don't have to understand that, just accept that our minds respond differently and thrive against different backdrops.

Some people are benefited by engaging in prayer.

Jul 20, 2008 at 09:07 AM : I believe God...

I believe God wouldn't cure an amputee because it would be visual proof that God exists, and He wants us to believe from faith, not from seeing. 'we walk by faith.. not by sight'..

Oct 19, 2008 at 09:10 PM : sigh.....then why does...

sigh.....then why does he do other "miracles" if indeed he does? so are you saying he doesn't do anything to show us that "god" is among us?